confused w/ the term "MTM"

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by mr_fro2000, Sep 28, 2012.

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  1. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Hey what happened to the Limper? Says banned.
     
  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes I can see all points of view and see no contradiction. In that example Nadal may be almost pulling vertically up whereas in another example he may be hitting more through the ball.
     
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Limpin was banned? ouch. Anyone know why?
     
  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    So what is the hot topic of argument today? Whether the across motion of the swing at impact time causes side spin or is it something else?

    There are two ways to create side spin. You can go under or over the ball. I assume over the ball is being discussed here.

    As the racket moves across the ball during the swing at impact, if there is a tangential component of impact on the lower left of the ball as the strings move upwards (for a rightie), side spin will be generated and the ball moves to the right after the bounce.

    Cheetah does that very well.

    On the other hand, if the contact is on the lower right of the ball as the racket moves across during the swing and impact, it will be conventional topspin and the ball will move to the left after the bounce. That is also is side spin, but it is "expected."

    I think many inside out forehands have side spin.

    It is very rare at the club level to find someone hitting side spin, other than by mistake.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I see that the hot point is whether pros deliberately add side spin or not.

    Have you seen a new driver? He holds the wheel at 10 and 2 and rotates it textbook style. As a seasoned driver, don't you sometimes make a turn by rotating the wheel with one finger, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN?

    I think once a pro knows he can do something, he will do it when the conditions are right. It may depend on his mood more than anything else, but he will do it once in a while. The above article estimates this happens in a quarter to half of their groundies. Though that might show "proof of intent" to some, I think you also need to take the "can do it so I will" approach which eventually becomes subconscious at some point.
     
  7. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I think this would be efficient way to create clockwise sidespin.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Well either your clock move in the opposite direction as the ones here in the US
    or You are look at the shot from the front,
    instead of the spin from the hitter perspective??
    Notice how quiet it got and no one came out to support your conclusions on
    spin direction??
     
  9. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I think ttw mods think fed has the best 1hbh ever so in honor of feds epic BH they banned limp. :D
     
  10. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure what you have in the corner there, but

    I ask anyone, from Nalbanian's view,

    Is his racket moving clockwise or counter clockwise?
     
  12. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Counter clockwise. Is it supposed to be clockwise?
    And its a cute little picture of a clock.. lol.
     
  13. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I understand toly to say this will produce clockwise spin on the ball.
    how?
     
  14. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I usually have no idea what toly is getting at.
     
  15. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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  16. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Toly edited the picture since last night. When he first post it yesterday the ball was on the strings on lower left. It appeared the ball was being hit on the left outer side. You can see where he edited out the ball on the first racket image
     
  17. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Original picture you can see in http://hi-techtennis.com/. :)
    So, my edit photoshop work is still very bad, right? :(

    Maybe this picture is better?:confused:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    From Fatbandian's view, it is moving counter clockwise. At contact, it is POSSIBLE that this motion combined with the upwards motion produces clockwise rotation on the ball if it contacts the lower left of the ball.

    Give a globe a spin by swiping your hands anti-clockwise wrt yourself. The globe will spin clockwise wrt you.

    A simpler visualization (gleaned from helping my son in the new Principles of Engineering course they are pushing these days in high school): meshed gears spin in opposite directions.

    Again, I am not sure if Fatty is contacting the ball upwards on the lower left edge, but if he is, that is what toly is saying.
     
  19. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Why did you edit out the ball on the strings? Weren't you trying to show how contact was made?
     
  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I am not sure what you are saying. In a topspin kick serve, the strings and the ball move in the same general rotational direction.
     
  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    And a righty Fh will normally spin more like the lefty kick serve pic, right?
    Except when he is hitting the buggy whip hooker to bring it back to the court.

    No idea why toly posts a pick of kick serve spins on this Fh discussion.
    Is he just trying to muddy the waters? He doesn't even attempt to tie the ideas
    together, does he?
     
  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Seems to me the direction of spin will depend on whether the inside or outside of the ball is contacted during the forehand or backhand swing.
     
  23. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Does next picture clarify something? :confused:

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Not entirely.
     
  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And the direction of the racket swing of course ...
     
  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Has contact happened or not?
     
  27. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    You are absolutely right. :)
     
  28. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I’m trying to demonstrate that we can use pronation very efficiently to create clockwise sidespin. We also can use elbow flexion. But, tip of the racquet should be directed upward.
    If we want counterclockwise sidespin the racquet tip should be directed down. I believe we already discussed this matter. :confused:
     
  29. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    This is after contact.
     
  30. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Direction of the sidespin is exclusively defined by direction of horizontal tangential component of the racquet velocity, because the ball is absolutely symmetrical figure about his center. Inside or outside ball have nothing to do with these types of spins. :confused:
     
  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, that spin is Bh, counter clockwise from Nadal's view
    and is what a righty Fh will normally do on a Fh,
    like Nalbanain's in the next post, which is also counter
    clockwise.

    See how that is just the opposite of your earlier post.....
    the one below?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    See where toly says this motion is for clockwise?? the same as Nadal's Bh, right?
    So should be saying counter clockwise.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    In practice it is very important. Ball is not a hard sphere and racket is not a hard rod. The contact is distributed over the whole impact area and can never be tangential.

    It is interesting that a truly rigid racket/string and a truly rigid ball can never produce topspin. No, tangential contact will not do, so don't try to rotate your head and hands now and imagine how is possible. In theory, a tangential force has no component into the ball.

    Failure to understand that there is a zone of impact is responsible for much confusion. There is no true tangential or grazing shot. A tangential movement of the strings actually deforms the ball and the strings and automatically imparts forward momentum. If you have studied the 2-spring model of topspin, you can see that it is the linear forces of the springs that actually impart the angular rotation. They will automatically also impart a forward momentum.

    This is true even for table tennis, where the ball is harder, the rubber is thinner, and the coefficient of restitution is higher. Even in that case, there is no such thing as pure tangential grazing. In tennis, the soft ball and the deforming strings make the forward momentum even more pronounced.
     
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    this pic also clarifies that there is normally an "across aspect" to the swing as I have
    maintained during this and other discussions.
    The same one you have been denying with your words, you confirm here
    with your pic.
     
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    This is Nadal's "windshield wiper backhand"
     
  36. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Agreed, but you are diving too deep here and I’m not going to bate that, too old for this stuff. :(
     
  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He was always posting negative comments about people without addressing any technical issue
     
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So are we on the same page now and you see where you were calling the spin
    backwards?
     
  39. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Tell me please in what particular post I said something wrong about racquet or ball rotation. If I did I correct it and apologize for misleading post. :shock:
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  40. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I'm sure he will be back shortly. Unless he really flew off the handle.
     
  41. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    That is not true, limpin was a excellent poster and added a lot of good information.
     
  42. connico

    connico Rookie

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    lol... you are both right.

    The spin on the ball is dependent from which axis your reviewing the spin of the ball from...
     
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I agree with that but his tone was often negative
     
  44. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    If you consider name calling and attacking other posters information then sure. I'm sure the ttw mods saw the benefit of all the tennis advice written in code inside all the negative bashing limp did. I'm surprised it took this long for him to be banned. Perhaps when he is allowed to return he will act like a sensible person. Most bans are only for a few days.
     
  45. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I really did not think he was that bad, I am surprised you feel that way. Regardless he did more than just attack, he offered some very good advise.
     
  46. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    He wasn't that bad actually. I usually like his posts. I'm just over exaggerating. He does have a mean streak thought. That's what I felt anyways. He probably got banned because of something unrelated anyways. I predict a 6 day ban.
     
  47. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    hopefully Limpin will be back soon! but

    Nice of Stan Smith to share this observation on Fed Fh and confirm the point
    about how the stroke works across with Fed-

    and this was dtl as well
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  48. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Now that is more the way I thought of limpin, he may have come on a little strong sometimes but seemed to be very knowledgeable about tennis and actually a pretty reasonable guy.
     
  49. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Stan Smith hit cross court going straight forward? That is not possible.

    Here is a video of Nastase-Smith. Stan hits very few groundies (mostly serve and volley) and in the few that I counted in the first 11 minutes before I lost patience, his finish was either across the body or at least up near the left of the forehead.

    Same with Nasty. Nasty even goes so far as to swing across the body on service returns!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZezxpCqbI4
     
  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    A guy has shown up in the Pro Player section. He was in the finals of all the Junior Slams this year, and won the W and USO, and is the #1 ITF junior now. He is inviting questions.

    See below. Note use of "through the ball" not once but twice. Note the importance of sideways too (i.e. not standing open stance facing the net).

    I am also impressed with his mention of hand and racket manipulation. I have noticed conscious direction control among the pros, which is not just by a different swing path. I notice them "forcing" a direction and am glad that I was correct. It is not about hitting "across the ball" at all.

    5263 will be sending me a check for $1000 for revealing the truth to him.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sureshs
    Filip, hope you don't mind a technical question.

    What tips can you give about hitting a topspin forehand with the right balance of spin and pace (depending on the situation), and the control over the direction (down the line or cross court), even though the swing motion is approximately the same? In other words, what is the difference you consciously make to achieve a particular speed/spin mix and direction compared to another combination?



    Technical questions are tough to answer without physically demonstrating it, but I will do my best.

    Basically you need to get under the ball with your racket and legs, transferring your weight up and through the ball, in order to keep the pace and depth.

    As for changing direction, you need to be turned sideways as preparation, (this applies to every stroke) and use your weight transfer and hand/racket manipulation to direct the ball. Pretty much all you have to do is guide your racket and weight through the ball in that direction.

    Again, these are difficult to answer, as it is a lot easier to learn if you actually see somebody demonstrate it in person.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
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