Congrats John Yandell

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ga tennis, May 29, 2013.

  1. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I'm watching the Monfils match and Brad Gilbert gives John a great compliment and called him a stroke genius!! Way to go John!!!
     
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  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What was the context? I switched on the TV after seeing your post, but then of course it won't let me rewind.
     
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  3. TennezSport

    TennezSport Hall of Fame

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    I believe...........

    I believe that Brad was referring to the unique but awkward forehand stroke of Gulbis with the stiff takeback and follow through. He complemented John Yandell as the "stroke genius" for pointing out the strange stroke.

    Cheers, TennezSport :cool:
     
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  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Is it considered bio-mechanically sound?
     
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  5. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    That's pretty cool of Brad. He was talking about the "swim" forehand. Watch Gulbis's left arm. Many parts of his stroke are classic ATP and obviously he absolutely blasts the ball--the question was whether he was losing shoulder rotation compared to the turns of Fed or Djok...
     
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  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    From the slow-motion, it is remarkable how the fundamentals are the same, while on TV he looks like a freak.
     
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  7. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Well that swim move is freakish for sure. But he couldn't do what he does to the ball if he wasn't doing some things that were technically effective...

    Talent trumps technique and talent with technique trumps talent.
     
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  8. rodrigoamaral

    rodrigoamaral Hall of Fame

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    very true John.. thanks for the insight!
     
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  9. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Thanks Tennis Ga and TennezSport for alerting me...I missed it... working on an article rather than watching...
     
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  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting....can't say I agree.
    Imo technique trumps talent and if you think you see talent trumping
    technique, then you just missed the technique present with the talent.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2013
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  11. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Yes, we disagree.
     
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  12. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    Doesn't it take talent to execute technique?
     
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  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    John, I'm going to have to point out an inaccuracy in your post...
    It's known as the 'Eagle forehand'. Not the 'Swim move'. hehe.:)
     
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  14. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Larry good point.

    To clarify there are a lot of great players who have technical flaws--some are glaring. Yet they crush players with better technique who don't have the pure ability to accelerate a racket or move like a world class athlete.

    A player like Federer is the supreme synthesis of the two.
     
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  15. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Cheetah I've been calling it the swim for a while but the name is less interesting than what that move does or doesn't accomplish...
     
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  16. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    Okay I understand now. Thanks
     
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  17. TennisMaven

    TennisMaven Banned

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    Seems like Gulbis' wrist doesn't flex (i.e. racquet whip) as much before contact like Fed or Nadal.
     
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  18. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Maybe you will get a shout out from a pro during a grand slam someday.
     
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  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It depends on the level about which you are discussing. A person with mediocre talent can achieve good technique, but it is rare to see anyone achieve great technique without talent. To put it in practical terms, there are many rec players who lose to those with worse technique and more raw talent in areas like foot speed, eyesight, court sense, endurance. But these losing players typically do not have great technique.

    At high levels, it gets fuzzy. Who has more talent - Federer or Nadal? Who has better technique? When both talent and technique cross a certain level, separating the two is not easy, and even the definitions do not apply.
     
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  20. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

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    Looks like a WTA forehand.
     
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  21. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    It looks like the forehand from another planet--but one thing is he does keep the racket on the right side of his body which is considered more ATP than WTA
     
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  22. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    I have to believe that he would get more mph on his forehand by properly rotating his shoulders.
     
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  23. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    For the most part, he looks like he does a full unit turn, even though his guide arm is not stretched to the side fence. His shoulders look like a full turn. Besides, the guy kills the ball.. its not wanting for more power
     
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  24. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    In general he turns well--just not as far as most of the other guys with forehands as big as his. It's a matter of relatively small degree--would more turn have an effect--probably.
     
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  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yep, it sure does. Trying to separate technique from talent imo is old model
    thinking. Everything is technique. How can someone exhibit tennis talent
    outside technique? I'd be very interested in hearing about glaring flawed technique
    that has trumped a player with awesome technique.
    Movement is something some might cite, but even great movement in tennis
    is technique.

    Imo Jordan in baseball is a good example. Extremely talented athlete with great
    size, timing and strength, but fared poorly due to under developed technique.
     
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  26. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    I guess to his forehand.. marginally, to the outcome of his matches, i would hazard there would be no benefit in changing what he does. Its an unusual forehand, but certainly does the job
     
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  27. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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  28. hawk eye

    hawk eye Hall of Fame

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    Gulbis can hit spectular winners from the baseline, but on midcourt balls he messes up a lot of times: he put himself in postion to put the ball away, swings to wild and misses more often than not.

    Berdych has the same problem, to a lesser degree.

    Guys like Djokovic and Nadal almost never miss those midcourt sitters.

    Imo this is not only a mental, but also a technical issue. John what do you think?
     
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  29. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    Super question...

    deserving of additional discussion because I respect Gulbis and Berdych greatly from the baseline and acknowledge both have midcourt issues. Understanding how they overhit or rather miss in the midcourt can uncover an adaptable truth for players generally. I think both players are too myopic during a developing point to roll half their midcourt balls off the court. If it is technical I do not know, but would be highly interested in others opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
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  30. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Hawk Eye,


    Hard to say. I think his preparation is awkward, with extra motion, and yet still a little incomplete. But take a player like Soderling who had a huge backswing that went behind his body or Delpo whose backswing is really, really high...

    It's just interesting and maybe not ideal, but with Gulbis it seems the mental/personality dimension may be just shy of what it takes to be top 5. Nothing against what he has accomplished and would love to be proved wrong on that.
     
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  31. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    one of the things gulbis achieves with his left arm is over rotation of the prep. for SW fh a too fast horizontal rotation can take away some topspin potential and I think he's trying to focus on topspin more than rotation. every pro has their own way to control horizontal, vertical, rotational motions. he seems to have found his middle ground that works for his game.
    meant prevent over rotation
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
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  32. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    You can get away with some flaws in your technique if you have natural talent. I am coming from the perspective of being a professional musician the majority of my life and have realized a few things I do that are technically "wrong".
     
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  33. hawk eye

    hawk eye Hall of Fame

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    Yes it sure is awkward, but he and his coach must have had certain benefits in mind when they started to change his motion. He's doing all right with it, but maybe they needs a few more matches against players like Monfils to realize he should pay extra attention to his mid court game. Berdych has a pretty smooth FH motion, but I think he could do with some putaway practice too.
     
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  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    But I'm sure you have also realized that many things previously thought of as
    technically wrong have turned out to be advances or at least a viable
    alternate method with their own strengths and weaknesses.
     
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  35. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Honestly, the way I did it was to copy other players I liked. I went from listening or watching someone I liked to spending time learning licks from their parts and fusing with with licks from other people's parts that I liked.

    So I skipped over much technical thinking, and as a result I was able to perform without thinking in front of people at a young age. That is how I believe great tennis players perform - they do get coached and they do work on things, but they have that ability to shut off their brains and execute in a match. I think the worst thing you can do is over analyze things. Even in jazz music, which is highly technical and requires you to change scales/chords sometimes every bar, you still hit a point where once you can do it without thinking and just flow through the changes, you become a player.


    I took 4 lessons as a kid, and the teacher who was highly regarded and successful told me to only to prepare, but never analyze or think. That is the secret to properly connecting your ears to your fingers. It worked for me, and I believe that mindset works for a lot more than just music.

    Example : when I was on here analyzing my serve and other parts of my game, it fell apart. Once I stopped thinking about it and just focused on parts that allowed me to get in a rhythm, my serve got much better again.
     
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  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Imo you make several good points and speak to something that most athletes
    must learn to manage.
    I will say (ref my Dual Objectives approach) that I think learning to play on
    auto in a natural fashion as you suggest,
    coupled with phases of heavy study tend to bring some of the best results.
    Once you can take critical aspects of the study and train them to a natural
    state, play usually can improve as a result.
     
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  37. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, a good example of this training is the video posted of the Junior in Spain. He is just hitting balls, and while doing it he is getting reinforced on what to do by the coach. Thats a nice way to drill technique and still be flowing.

    The closest I got to this training musically was one manager I had who was an excellent drummer. He and I would just jam in a hot rehearsal space and go over grooves and songs for 2 hours. He was much more experienced to me so I would listen to his advice. He probably told me 2-3 little things over that 2 hour span, but after a few months of gigging with this guy I was able to do high pressure studio sessions in under the allotted time which ended up getting me a lot of work really quickly.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
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  38. Thepowerofchoice

    Thepowerofchoice Semi-Pro

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    ^^^Great points and example here. Our conscious mind is not fast enough to put all informations together for our body so if you only focus on technique and mechanical parts, it will feel unnatural and not smooth.

    Our subconscious mind works faster and more capable of putting parts of the mechanical (strokes) together in smooth and natural way. Just my 2 cents.
     
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  39. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. The discussion of technique is the finger pointing at the moon. The execution is the moon itself.

    The assimilation is visual and kinesthetic--internal images and feelings. Often this is completely unconscious so that players are unaware of how they do what they do.

    Pete Sampras was once asked to explain the volley and said:
    "I don't know how to volley."

    Obviously he could volley. What this shows is that he didn't process the experience in words. He got tremendous technical instruction from Lansdorp and others. But those words translated into sub verbal unconscious images and feelings.
     
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  40. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Fascinating slo-mo of his forehand. Not sure I've ever even seen him play. Looks to me like, once he starts his hand forward in the swing, it looks pretty much like all the other ATP forehands.
     
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  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree he has all the key modern elements to his Fh.
     
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  42. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    There is nothing unsual about gulbis forehand now comared to earlier. He has always been leading with the edge of the racket until it opens up just before impact. Now he is just getting more directly to that position than earlier, just like when a server a la Tsonga or Nadal makes his abbreviated takebake to throphy position. Berdych and gulbis problems from midcourt have complete opposite origins. Gulbis leads with the edge on both fh and bh, on high or low
    shots. This requires much less technical ability that a clean shot like berdychs. Berdych midcourt problems stems from his insistance on wanting to always to hit a prefectly clean shot which is the opsite of what gulbis does. Gulbis has midcourt problems becus when u lead with the edge u get problems controlling the length of ur shot sinece the racket face is not only opening up, up to contact but also during contact. This creates a low percentage shot which is gulbis main problem.

    Gulbis has no problem whih his shoulder turn which is obvoiusly min. 180 degrees!
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
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  43. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    no. nobody pats the dog more than gulbis. he gets a ton of lag in his swing.

    the downside of that backswing is that it takes too much time. he swings the arm back straight which creates a huge circle while other straight armers swing the arm back bent so that the racket goes back on a shorter path (more of a straight line). I think that is the reason while gulbis can generate huge power and spin but makes a lot of errors.
     
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  44. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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  45. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Chas,

    That footage shows the reduced shoulder turn in the new "swim" forehand.

    He may turn 90 degrees or a little less. The old Gulbis is more like the other tour players where the turn is like 100 to 110 degrees on most balls.
     
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  46. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I'm not sure what the "swim" forehand is. Swimming involves the lats.

    Speculating -

    I see Gulbis's new forehand as allowing increased lengthening of the lat muscle - the humerus rises higher (shoulder joint abduction). When the lat shortens (shoulder joint adduction) the upper arm is brought down and can gain velocity. Since the upper arm is held by the shoulder joint as a pivot, any downward velocity could be transferred into forward and upward velocity for the stroke. There might also be several percent gain in racket head speed from the added racket drop.

    It would take some biomechanical measurements of how his humerus is accelerating to determine what the lat is doing and how significant that motion is to racket head speed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
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  47. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Waiting for LeeD to chime in.

    I think Cahil mentioned him during the Aussie.
     
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  48. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Chas,

    In general most of the acceleration in the studies we did (not Gulbis) showed the drop of the racket wasn't a huge contributor. Most of the acceleration happens (like the serve) in those few milliseconds when the racket is heading toward contact.

    Interesting how Fed rifles the forehand with the compact motion. It's all related to the shoulder muscle action and the flip described by Brian Gordon in my opinion.
     
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  49. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Upper arm acceleration

    The racket drop issue is a small increase in racket head speed that is available because once the racket and arm are raised and then drop to a lower contact point the potential energy at the high point can be available as kinetic energy - racket head speed - at the lower impact point. The drop is not the interesting point and also most current strokes start with a high racket and arm, but not as high as Gulbis, Del Porto or Florian Mayer for forehands.

    The lat accelerates the upper arm (humerus) downward and also the body turn accelerates the upper arm forward. I just looked at a Nadal forehand and the upper arm accelerates very early in the forward stroke, it goes down a little and forward with the body turn. The racket head is lagging behind and some complicated stretching of several muscles is probably going on and is important. Later, just before impact, as you say, the racket head itself is doing most of its acceleration.

    Look just at the upper arm between the elbow and shoulder. Compare the upper arm motion to all that is going on with the racket head.
    https://vimeo.com/63687035

    I believe that Gulbis can do more acceleration of the upper arm initially because he lengthens and stretches his lat & pec. Maybe also scapular muscles are being lengthened. ?? A careful study of how the upper arm is accelerating in the Gulbis stroke and the Nadal stroke or other current forehands could show what is happening.

    During the French Open, Monfils played Gulbis. There was a presentation of the 'average speed of groundstrokes' for Monfils and Gulbis. It was Gulbis 79 MPH & Monfils 75 MPH. It did not mention whether the speeds were for forehands or backhands, so I guess that both were included. It would be interesting to compare Gulbis's forehand velocities with and without the elevated upper arm.

    (I tend to abbreviate my strokes very badly. Often the BH & FH strokes start from a lower point, racket head below the shoulder. Even for me, if I raise the racket to above my head I often can feel much better pace.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
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  50. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    LeeD -VS- John Yandell

    Who will win?
     
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