Could Vantage copy a Head Prestige Classic with a 16-19 string pattern?

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by jonas-the-ball-basher, Mar 9, 2005.

  1. jonas-the-ball-basher

    jonas-the-ball-basher Rookie

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    Could Vantage copy a Head Prestige Classic with a 16-19 string pattern?
    I would really like to have something which feels and looks exactly the same as my Prestige Classic.
     
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  2. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    I think they can come darn close. Contact RacketDesign and ask him.
     
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  3. wao

    wao Professional

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    Jonas,
    I would be intrested in what you find out.
    Wayne
     
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  4. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Just curious -- why do you want something that "looks and feels exactly" like another racquet? Why not stay with the original
    ________
    Extreme - q
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2011
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  5. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    oh sure...just locate some Twaron and attempt to put it into the layup in the same % that Head did way back when, and also concentrate the weight in the layup the same way..oh..cap grommets for sure becase those really affect the frame, and then if you come within miles of the Prestige Classic, which iteration of the PC are you trying to duplicate? piece of cake ;O
     
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  6. DoubleHanded&LovinIt

    DoubleHanded&LovinIt Professional

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    NoBadMojo really likes to call out TommyGun. NBMJ I'm just wondering whether you have hit with a Vantage. I have one that you might want to try.
     
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  7. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    i am not trying to call out anyone, but it's pretty ridiculous to say you can come darn close to a prestige classic with the twaron and all which gave it the unique feel.... no, i havent hit with a Vantage..it's a tennis racquet..tennis racquets have no magical properties..best i might come up with is something that plays along the lines of my Gen2's or Gen1's, and then I am pretty much back to where i started after losing a few months to adapt to a new frame.i did a playtest recently for TW and am testing a prototype string and playtest some Volkls, and changing from the Gen1 to Gen2 is taking a while..that's plenty enough to have my game in disarray..i'm cooling my jets with the demo stuff, and getting my game back in order.
     
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  8. DoubleHanded&LovinIt

    DoubleHanded&LovinIt Professional

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    I got you. Good call. Sometimes it's better to just settle down with equipment and work on the game. I haven't hit with either the Gen 1's or 2's actually. I read the TW review on the 1 and the low ratings they gave on the serve scared me away. Pair that up with the fact that it has a rectangular shaped grip and there was no way I was going to enjoy it.

    Yes, Vantages aren't magical. I don't know why you'd state that. But there is something special in being able to order a racquet with the specs you want don't you think? Though Vantage doesn't let you pick all the specs, they give you more choices than any company out there today.
     
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  9. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    i've nothing against Vantage at all..i like new things in tennisland. i dont think it right that people over the top blatantly mislead people though..that doesnt seem right to me, so i decided to comment. by the way, if someone has good technique with their serve, they can serve really well with the Gen1
     
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  10. GuyPerez

    GuyPerez Semi-Pro

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    Ed,
    Tell us about this prototype string. What is the scoop??
     
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  11. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    NBMJ is correct, also I think an srd tour 90 would be much closer to an open pattern prestige than vantage can concoct, heck I can go as far as saying a leaded head premier is closer to an open pattern prestige mid, if I recall spalding atp 90 has an open pattern mid. But I can also see vantage point of view, that these frames are hard to come by, but then again there is that new yonex mid ;-)
     
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  12. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    I don't think they can copy the look of the prestige classic? It sounds like that would be illegal. I'm sure they could work to get the balance and weight close however.

    One important difference as NBMJ mentioned was the composition and flexibility of a frame. I don't know if they can copy that.

    It is interesting though to see so many positive reviews for the Vantages. Is there something more to these frames than the weight and string pattern that is appealing? eg. if you had a Wilson or Prince w/ the same wt., head size, balance, is it the same or is their something beyond these specs?
     
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  13. matchpoints

    matchpoints Professional

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    From What I'm hearing, the quality control is much better. So if I order 3 racquets, they will be of same exact specs. I can't say that about other companies nowadays....
     
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  14. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    Yes, that is a sign of high quality control; so presumably other aspects of racquet production are also equally high.

    However, I know TW can match racquet specs (well mainly weight and balance) so I'm not sure if that can explain the adoration Vantage owners report.

    I suspect the psychological component of getting to make choices in the racquet's design accounts for a lot of the thrill. e.g. I chose 10.8oz and 100" so it must be more perfect than that <brand name> even it also has the same specs.

    I have to confess that I like to log into their site and make racquets...
    I hold on to my New Year's Resolution!
     
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  15. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    other companies like Fischer and Volkl maintain very tight specs.....it isnt uncommon to test a handful of volkls and to have them be only 2-3 swingweight points apart, which really isnt noticeable. i dont even weigh or balance mine..they feel the same to me an i usually notice very small things. and yes, many companies will send you closests matches for static weight and balance, altho most people notice balance and swingweight before they notice changes in static weight. i would think all the racquet companies have much tighter specs than they did years ago..it wasnt uncommon to have prestige classic specs vary wildly from frame to frame, and they also were subject to a bit of warping in the head. the prototype string i am playtesting is a spiral wrapped multifilament. natural with orange wrap. nice string for someone wanting something very soft playing that doesnt turn to mush and holds it's tension and playablity..plenty of spin and good power...seems good for TE sufferers and those thinking they can soften the harsh hit of a too stiff frame.
     
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  16. GuyPerez

    GuyPerez Semi-Pro

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    Ed
    String sounds interesting indeed. Could you keep me posted on it or perhaps contact me guyperez@yahoo.com to see if I could try it out. I have a tender elbow, but also am a chronic string breaker (every 5 hours or so).
     
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  17. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    Guy I can post something in the string section whenever i know something more..i dont know that this string is ready for market yet, or if they will play around with it more...nor do i know if what they created was even their intent...i think there is a good market for a soft playing string that doesnt trampolene on you and then turn to mush, that is of medium power. they'll let me know what is up and then i will pass it along..they only sent me the one set
     
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  18. Deuce

    Deuce Banned

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    More deliberately misleading BS from Tommy Kiss Ass. Your credibility lowers by the second.

    Ed is 100% right - without the exact same ingredients in the exact same percentages, no racquet company can come close to creating a frame which plays like a Prestige Classic - not even Vantage.

    As if head size, grip shape, weight and balance alone will make a frame FEEL like another frame. To suggest that this is possible is either plain dishonest, or downright stupid.
     
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  19. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    Its actually laughable at how you all get sooo wrapped around materials and perfect matching feel. Truth is, its almost impossible to duplicate it, sometimes even in the same racquet line. But if you know about hitting weight and ACOR (a much truer measure of racquet feel and performance) you know that you can reproduce racquets with very similar feel and performance.

    I really don't get why NBMJ is constantly bashing what I say. When I say something close I don't say "exact". If you put together the right choices from Vantage you can get something that might be closer to that darn PC then you could otherwise, and as others have noted here the Vantage hoop is similar in style to the PC.

    As for QC, while others have "tight specs" I've actually been to some of the Chinese plants making the frames. Guys, not personally supervised, and not as close as you think. Even the best plants in China have yet to discover high end QC methods and procedures.
     
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  20. Deuce

    Deuce Banned

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    I know enough to know that a 100% graphite frame cannot be made to feel like a frame that's made up of, say, 70% graphite, and 30% Twaron.

    No more than a sundae made with only chocolate ice cream can be made to taste like a sundae made with both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

    I call this formula BCS - Basic Common Sense.
     
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  21. BLiND

    BLiND Hall of Fame

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    Can we pleases stop Vantage bashing, and answer the guys question!

    The answer is you can get very close specs to the Prestige Classic, however it won't be the same.
     
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  22. Kirko

    Kirko Hall of Fame

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    then why even bother.
     
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  23. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    I agree BLiND.

    Ed's time as a tennis coach (how many years?) apparently trumps my degree in materials engineering and work with actual manufacturing of sporting goods and graphite industrial products as well as my experience doing some racquet tech work over the years. Yeah, a playtester definitely knows more than any of us...

    If all graphite was the same, then every single 100% graphite frame would be exactly like all others, no matter who the manufacturer, which we all know is not the case. Formula for the Pro Staff was the same when they no longer made it in St. Vincent. So then Ed, please tell us all, with your vast knowledge, why those frames played so different. There are a multitude of things with graphite and the molding process that make your products interestingly different then another guys even if you are starting with some of the same raw stock. And with Vantage you can vary not only weight and balance but LENGTH, which also will change the feel of a frame. Add a little lead yourself to boot, and you can come amazingly close in feel to many of the classics...

    As I said, and will again, by having some customized choice you can create something CLOSE in feel, NOT identical. Bosworth can do the same, without having to find a stock of TWARON.

    Get off whatever it is that is sticking in your a__ Ed. I'm not here to push a product, just answer the question which was "Could Vantage copy a Head Prestige Classic with a 16X19 string pattern?"


    In my opinion, you can get a Vantage frame that will be close.
    Yothat I don't know about, and apparently has a scientific background, otherwise I can't see
     
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  24. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    Oh, and Deuce, same goes for you...
     
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  25. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    the originator of the thread asked if Vantage could copy a Head Prestige Classic with a 16-19 pattern..the answer is no..not even close. TommyGun apears and sez 'pretty darn close'. Since that is very innacurate, I decided to jump into the thread so the poster would not be mislead..that isnt having anything up my butt...im just parsing good information. Dont need the lecture about factories in China Tommy Gun....Vantage comes from a factory in China where they make racquets for other companies. Being an old guy in tennis and having played the PC in Trisys300 660 form (i know i am a weenie) or a few years, i can tell you that nothing feels like that, and thats why they are sought after. The best Vantage could do would be to offer something with the same weight and balance as the PC which s something you can come 'darn close' to by using the TW racquet finder tool. I dont go around the board citing my tennis acheivements and bragging Tommy Gun, and i feel bad for you that you have the need to do this. I'm not in some sort of bizarro competition for you with anything. this is ridiculous.
     
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  26. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    no biggie TG but I'm not a coach..i'm a tennis teaching pro, and i guess you dont know there is a difference. very part time these days. I dont apreciate your noise..post accurate info and dont have an excessive need to brag, dont ridiculously and batantly hype a product, and people will leave you alone. since you know so much about materials, you should know that it is the Twaron in the PC which gives it the unique feel and playablity. we're from diff backgrounds and quite obviously different people..i prefer to just let my posts speak for themselves...i dont feel the need to always be bragging and saying stuff like "professor tommy gun now present and conducting tennis class". btw my real money career was in sales and marketing consulting specifically helping foreign companies launch product lines in the US, and that is why i say your posting on behalf of Vantage in the manner you did, hurt the Vantage cause. I've done well with the career and have been involved in tennis in many capacities for a long time..i dont feel the need to speak of this stuff as you do...
     
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  27. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    Ed,

    Not bragging, just getting tired of the way you and Deuce fire an insult, act like you didn't and then act like your opinions are the worlds expertise in these things. (You said, " over the top blatantly mislead people" and Deuce said, "Tommy Kiss Ass" )When I offer my opinion, its based on FACT, my understanding of materials, the construction of the racquets (I have cut the precious PC open and looked at it with some of my old microscopes) and my thoughts on the product I am talking about. I repost my quallies so that the readers understand where MY opinion and information come from. That gives them the choice to take my advice however they want.

    I'm not sure exactly if it is just the Twaron that gives the PC its feel, but definitely its short fiber structure does change the way you work with an mold the frame.

    As for "teaching pro", I know the difference (anyone can be a tennis pro, just pass the test), although the term is used interchangeably throughout most of the world. Its funny how you won't ever tell anyone for how many years. You have stated numerous times how you are a "long time pro" or your "long time involvement with tennis." I'm curious, honestly, how many years that is? For all I know my 32 years of playing, teaching and coaching might be longer then yours. Wouldn't that be something someone might take into consideration when reading my advice?

    So, I don't "hype" products (a marketers term) or post innacurate information. You might not agree, but I can back mine up with science or other data. And again, I never said you can EXACTLY copy the frame, only that with the range of choices you can get close.

    For example, after getting some measurements, the Vantage 63 flexes I have strung have a flex of about 61...not far from the PC's stated 60. Add some lead, change the length, and you can duplicate the characteristics of the PC very closely.

    Now, since it wasn't made in the mold, nor in the same exact location, nor made by Head it will never EXACTLY be the same. But with the Vantage choices you can get a close copy TODAY!

    So Ed, I'm going to ask nicely for now. Go ahead and disagree with my opinions, as that is fair. But stop with the insults. Its getting tiring and I'm trying my hardest to be a gentleman here.

    As for hurting Vantage, I bet I've done a lot more good then you will ever know...
     
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  28. El Diablo

    El Diablo Hall of Fame

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    Awfully difficult to debate whether something like feel can be copied; the taste analogy above is interesting but leads to the thought that tastes can be virtually copied (aspartame) with different materials, so you may not need Twaron to mimic a Twaron feel. I have very sensitive wrists, and the Vantage is the only racquet since wood that I've felt comfortable using without a dampener -- I think they've got a very good product there.
     
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  29. BLiND

    BLiND Hall of Fame

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    NBM you say vantage cannot come even close to copying a Prestige, yet you can get almost the same, headsize, head shape, weight, swingweight, balance, grip, length, beam width.... yet this isn't even close? YOUR missleading people, not TG.
     
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  30. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    Look, if you're like most people here and going to be a princess about it, then even the same company, using the same molds, the same process, the same everything will get detectable variations in frames from lot to lot - heck, even frame to frame. If that's where you're coming from, the discussion you should be having is about prestige serial numbers, not how close vantage can come.

    On the other hand, there are frames that play similarly to one another. Some people around here often remark on how the iPrestige mid and the PS6.0 feel a lot alike. Different string patterns, different constructions (intellifibers, braided), etc. etc. etc. Therefore, it's possible, perhaps not probable.

    Finally, why shoot for the head prestige anyway? Twaron, kevlar - whatever you want to call it - IMHO there's no eaiser way to make a frame feel lousy than to add aramid to the mix. Vantage's aramid free version of the prestige would probably be pretty sweet and likely be capable of better tennis than you can throw at it anyway - so why not give it a try?
     
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  31. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    Look, some of us see a glass half empty and some as half full. I tend to the view that nothing can or will feel the same as a PC except a PC, and that the feel of a PC is the best racket feel there is. But, that doesn't mean that other rackets may not do some of the things a PC does (though in my view, that isn't a very helpful realisation). Can you guys stop arguing about this. I now know far more about NBMJ and TG than I want to, and am starting to hesitate before reading their otherwise very helpful posts for fear of walking into the continuation of this spat. Let's move on.
     
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  32. J D

    J D Rookie

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    Sorry, TG, but even you have admitted that the material in a PC will make it feel different than a Vantage. So, the honest answer to Jonas' question, with the facts you had, would have been, "They can make one that plays almost the same, maybe even better for you, but it will feel and look different." Your answer WAS misleading.

    Unless there is some behind the scenes arrangement with TW we're not privy to, I think it's very unethical of RacketDesign, and apparently you, to use the TW message boards to launch a product that's taking potential business away from TW. You have revealed what ISN"T your motivation for openly hawking these frames. So, what IS your motivation? Is it free frames, an endorsement, a percentage, a friendship with the owner, or do you just really believe they are the best frames made? Since he's directing return frames to you, your relationship obviously goes beyond good customer. If you just believe in the product, what makes them so superior? Why is a custom Vantage worth twice the money of another frame of similar head size and stiffness that's been customized to the ideal weight, balance, and swing weight for a player (and I expect a detailed, scientific answer from someone of your background)?

    If your motivation for revealing your credentials is to let everyone judge the facts based on the source, then you also should be open about your current and/or possible future relationship with Vantage so your posts can be put in the proper light. And you still need to take a long look in the mirror about what you all are doing to TW. It demonstrates very poor business ethics.
     
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  33. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    JD,

    I did lay out all my associations and almost my entire resume on on a post in the rants and raves section about a month ago. I laid it all out on the line. Whereas others here, who are actually sponsored by some companies, would not reveal that they were. Nor if you ask will you ever get a straight answer from some here to their claims that they are "long time associated with tennis" or the like. If you read NBMJ post, when asked he doesn't just understatedly say "I've been playing and teaching for X years" but he avoids it like a marketer by saying that he lets his post stand on their own, he doesn't have to brag." Last time I looked, answering a simple question like how long have you been a teaching pro is not bragging. And, if you are going to refute another post and put forth your idea as being more forthright or true, then wouldn't it be nice to see where it is coming from?

    I love my Vantages, and I also love the X-45's (I used to love Snauwaert and Spalding, but they ain't in the biz anymore.) I never avoided saying that. Like others here, I love my frames andwill talk about them freely.

    As for my relationship with RD, you should already have seen under numerous threads that others talk to him as well. I volunteered to be a repository if you will, since I have the financial means and space to do things like this, and I find Mr. Angell to be a totally delightful person. For the record, I have done or do the same for other companies, including Volkl, X-45 and Wish. Its not like I'm running a business, but if a frame needs a temporary home until a company I like finds it a good home, and I can help them out by saving them some shipping dollars, then I am glad to oblige. If Prince, Head, Wilson or any other approached me in the same manner, I'd probably say yes.

    I am not saying to buy, or making people buy. I do not say "pay the price or else". I just comment based on what is posted and asked. I can give you a number of reasons to buy custom, either Vantage, Topspin, Bosworth or Jay's, all scientific. First, it is easy to get more then one frame matched without having to get several shipped and return the ones that arent, which is a common practice sometime. Secondly, you could get a frame built to your personal grip. If you go Boz or I think Jay will still even mold a grip to your personal taste and hand. That is ergonomic and better for your overall health. You should buy custom if you have arm or shoulder problems because by and large you get a better quality frame, with less or no rattles and vibrations, with better materials that you can tailor to suit your particular ailment or problem. Most of the reasons to buy cutom have to do with preference, but I can make a case ergonomically as well. (Hope that is scientific enough for you, as my discussion on materials has more to do with when people start off on strings like its the fiberglass/Twaron/silicon dioxide that makes it play that way.)

    As for price justification, that is personal. I know that over the years I have payed ten times what a pair of the Vantages cost for tournament quality racquets. FOR ME, VANTAGE IS A GREAT INVESTMENT! Its cheaper then Bosworth, I get a conventional head shape (Boz only gives you the octagon), I get high quality control and matched frames. I also can get them in a color choice, which is great for me, so that I can have one in white and one in black, and if I string them differently for a tournament I can easily id which one is the special one or the one strung slightly looser or tighter.

    JD, if you have read my posts in the past, I even recommended that people wait to buy a frame they like by the biggies, as it will most likely be discontinued or discounted heavily within a year. I bought pair of Head's that Agassi first used when he came from Donnay for a friend for $20 a piece just two years ago. Great frames, incredible price.


    As for my "damaging TW", I said it before. I have seen people post here frames that TW sells new. Some offer to sell, some trade. Those all take away a particular potential sale from TW and therefore clearly do more damage to TW then my discussion about Vantage or Bosworth. Read my posts. I never "push" a particular frame, but do comment frequently on the Vantage posts, but not all.

    As for being misleading, I am sure the original poster understood, as if you noticed his english was not the best, and I do believe he didn't mean a real "copy", but in fact meant could you get a Vantage that plays like it. Which, as you wrote more eloquently then me, yes, you can come close, and maybe even play better.

    I also don't know why you guys are aiming at me. I counted the posts, and Guy Perez and others have posted as much, positively about Vantage as I have. Having gone back and read a whole bunch, I never said anything over the top like they are the greatest frames ever, that you should never buy anything else, that I have never, ever hit with a frame as good as this and never will again, or anything like that. All I have said is that the frames I have play like butter, that they duplicate a set of frames I loved when I was younger, and I was able to get a 28" frame in a players stick. If that is hype or over the top, I would hate to know what your true definition of a regular review is.

    So JD, that is me. Since you asked me, do you have any affilitations, sponsorships, company relationships with the tennis industry we need to know about?

    Its only fair.

    Also, again, I grow tired of the insults. Disagree with me all you like, but just because its the faceless internet is no excuse to insult and call names.
     
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  34. J D

    J D Rookie

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    TG, I appreciate your quick and lengthy response. I have noted that you don't always recommend Vantage exclusively or usually push them unreasonably. When Jonas went to the trouble of underlining exactly in regard to feel, I felt like your response was a little off and it made me question your objectivity. Your explanation is weak because his English was excellent.

    I do think what RacketDesign is doing here is unethical and, IMO, it would better serve your reputation (and credibility) not to be associated with it. When you brag about being a major linchpin of his unethical actions, it really makes me wonder.

    Since you asked, I am not sponsored and currently have no direct industry affiliations. I have designed and patented a tennis product that I will be mass producing shortly, but I won't be using another companies' message boards to market it. If you hadn't asked, no one here would ever have known what I'm doing. Since it competes directly with products that TW offers, promoting it on TW's nickel just wouldn't be kosher, even if it was just a behind the scenes plan of strategic playtest reviews.

    I haven't done any name calling. Feel free to defend the insult of being accused of being part of an unethical plot in regard to RacketDesign's use of the TW boards. If it's true, it isn't an insult, just a statement of facts. The difference I see between you and others is that others have usually just posted reviews while you have been more active in responding to questions and trying to set up playtests. If you have been unwittingly involved, then you should back off and let the product speak for itself. If you have been wittingly involved then, IMO, you should apologize and leave the board, that is if integrity means anything to you. I'm surprised that more posters here wouldn't be outraged at the possibility of fellow board members conspiring to take advantage of the board sponsors as well as their fellow posters by encouraging posters to buy a comparable product at twice the price that they could easily and superiorly duplicate themselves.

    BTW, I would still like a detailed explanation as to why a Vantage is worth twice the price of a mass produced frame of the same specs. Is it the material, flex points, dampening qualities, beam design? If you really believe in customization, does the average player really know exactly what specs are best for them? Wouldn't they do better taking a frame that's the right head size, shape, string pattern, length, and stiffness, that's slightly too light, and using lead tape to get "exactly" the specs that work best for them? Then they can even control weight distribution and swing weight (and why doesn't Vantage include swing weight with the specs on their site?).
     
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  35. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

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    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    530
    Well, interesting JD,

    I would love to take this offline about your product if you wish.As for my involvement, if you wish, I'll help with your product as well. Don't have to do it here, you can email me. I am a huge supporter of the industry and would like to see it flourish and grow again.

    As for RD, no need to bash him either. First, TW has every oppportunity to kill all the posts on any product or racquet they don't like or wish here. In the past, I have actually seen TW add products to their line based on lengthy discussions here. They might be using the Vantage threads to guage their potential interest in carrying the line. Who knows.

    As for the detailed price explanation, I don't defend anyones pricing, but I have seen many products produced outside of the US that because of exchange rates and that darn Euro I've gotten hammered on price. (My mother just HAD to have a particular **** feeder, which I could only get online from Sweden. Don't even ask me what that cost...)

    Now, since you asked nicely, I would agree, that if you can find a frame with the exact same specs cheaper, then you should buy it. I don't ever say buy Vantage or Boz if you are looking for an nCode Pro and you can get one. No don't pay any higher price then you need. Most of what people have been discussing here is actually specs of frames that are either no longer in production or are hybrids of their two favorite all-time frames. That type of thing of course you would go custom for if you can afford it and really want it. As for the price of Vantage custom, I will say, after getting my two the price is more then justified FOR ME:

    1. It is the only place I can get a 95 sq. 28" frame. Do you know where else you can get them?

    2. I can get a frame with specs I like with a GRIP SHAPE I LOVE! Choice is worth the price. When you mention about cheaper frames with the same specs, that usually doesn't mean grip shape. As you know, grip shape is one of the biggest factors in feel. So, to get a racquet with the Wilson PS specs but a Dunlop, Head, or Prince grip shape is worth the extra money.

    3. Matching frames. Yes, if you ask and plead and beg other companies will try and do it for you, but the customized frames come that way automatically. Worth the extra money.

    4. Quality control. I am maybe too familiar with how it is done in the industry. Vantage has one of the if not the highest overall quality I am aware of. Worth the price.

    5. Vantage has done a very thorough job in designing the frames to be timeless in graphic, and superior in playability. Read posts by anyone other then me. They all talk about spin generation, power, control and GREAT FEEL, INCLUDING HOW THEY SEEM TO NOT AGGRAVATE ELBOW OR OTHER TENNIS TYPE INJURIES. Superior frame design? Worth 10 times the price for a frequent or tournament player like me.

    Now, you make a great point about average players knowing about what specs are for them. Part of both Vantage and Bosworth's approaches are best served when aided by a personal coach or teaching pro. Before either of these companies were available to us average Joes I used to help players I coached customize their own frames. I would describe their games, relate that to racquet physics and then help them create the "perfect" frame. Now its never a "perfect" science, but I think that if anyone who regularly posted here were to give advice to a player on what custom Boz or Vantage frame to buy, they could do a great job in doing it and the person asking would be very happy with what they have chosen. And you don't have to screw around with lead tape, which, in my humble opinion, is a value worth the added price.

    Yes, if you have access to a good racquet technician, then buying a frame with your overall close specs but needing a little lead adjustment is just as good. THAT IS CUSTOMIZATION! I support that 1,000,000%.

    Now, as for no swingweight on the Vantage site, I wouldn't be surprised if it appears soon, as soooooo many people in the posts here have noted it. As for why originally, I'm only speculating but I am in Europe frequently and there doesn't seem to be the big concern for swingweight measurement over there. Go to www.technifibre.com and look at their European site. You won't find swingweight there either. Actually, now that I think about it, go the the Wilson US site and they don't even put balance or swingweight measurements on their site. So, swingweight is not a universal thing to post, although we all like to see it.

    Now, you keep asking me questions like I work for Vantage. I DON'T! If you really want to know why they don't have something on their website, or why they offer this and not that, or what makes their pricing, then ask THEM!

    I will finish by defending RD, although I am sure he does not need it. I have never, ever seen a post by him pushing his frames or products, asking people to buy, or even announcing his website launch. Go look back, I think you will find that to be true. I and Guy Perez were some of the first to post about Vantage here, and I know that RD would rarely chime in, unless there was a question that no one else could adequately answer for the poster. So, don't accuse him of being unethical, as you are applying to him your feelings about what many of us have written here.

    I am sure that if your new product turns out to be the next best thing, and someone here posts a rave review about it you won't be calling TW to pull the posts. And if it gets a great buzz, I am sure you won't cry foul.

    So, have a great nite JD,

    t-gun
     
    #35
  36. Kirko

    Kirko Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,916
    I wonder if Bosworth could "build" a prestige type 16X19 @ least he has truly been in the business for yrs. a big name list of pros. & huckster promoting his product here.
     
    #36
  37. J D

    J D Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    182
    TG, you say the right things.
    I was almost convinced till I did a search.
     
    #37
  38. Flatspin

    Flatspin Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    315
    My question is this. The subject of playing experience .... or "long time pro" or what ever. I'm not singling anyone out here. Whether your a 5.0 or a 3.5 player. How many times I've heard this. Believe this ..... there are better tennis players and not "as good" tennis players ...... but what's important is that we encourage everyone to enjoy. However, let me say this, down here in S.C. ..... B.S. talks and the "racquet walks"! LOL!
     
    #38
  39. Flatspin

    Flatspin Rookie

    Joined:
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    #39
  40. J D

    J D Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    182
    Here are, what, 27 posts by RacketDesign announcing, advertising, and selling. He has used TW to recruit coaches, teaching pros, and players for his mailing list. He's lined up TW message board members as playtesters to get as much buzz going as possible, evidently giving them free demos. Shoot, he's even used it to arrange racquet shipments and conduct business.

    TG, it's hard to give you the benefit of the doubt since there are sooooo many posts by RacketDesign that contradict your defense of him. Still, I'm willing to concede that you may not be aware of how unethical this practice was.
    This is your best defense. TW certainly could have shut it down. We could all speculate as to their motives, but it could be that they're just too busy to bother with it. However, just because you CAN do something unethical and make money doesn't mean you SHOULD.

    Shoot, I'm willing to concede that Paul may even be a lovely person who just lost sight of the larger picture. Still, he has no excuse, and neither does anyone that continues to help him exploit the TW board for his own personal profit. I know a lot of people get upset about pros on discussion boards because people come here looking for impartial advice and recommendations. I personally don't mind pros as long as they are up front and open about what they do for a living, which, to his credit, RD was. My only problem with this whole thing is the business being stolen from TW using their own board. If someone BUYS a Vantage and wants to post a review, more power to them. But the rest of this stuff is out of line.

    TG, I enjoy having knowledgeable insiders like you and RD on the board. TG, I just think you need to rethink your open support for RD because of his blatant abuse here. And, RD, if you're listening, I hope you will contact TW and clear your participation in any further posts about Vantage. If they don't have any objection, I'll drop mine.
     
    #40
  41. Grimjack

    Grimjack Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,439
    Print thie following out, and take it to the nearest pub immediately. Send me the bill:

    *********
    Prescription: Beer.

    Dosage: See that patient receives 1 per half hour, till pub closes or he loses consciousness.

    *********
     
    #41
  42. Racketdesign

    Racketdesign Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
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    387
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    JD, perhaps you would like to email me directly and we can discuss a couple of the points you raised in your post.
     
    #42
  43. 16

    16 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    308
    Whats the big deal? More choices is better and i always like to here reviews on frames whether it be tecnifibre, wilson,...ect, or vantage. Yes RD did tell us about his new buisness but most of the promoting came from fans. It is not much different than someone raving about their new RDX (except the reviews from vantage are more important in helping people decide on one since there is so many variables to consider.)

    16
     
    #43
  44. Deuce

    Deuce Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2004
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    5,270
    Location:
    A not so parallel universe...
    Unlike JD, I do not take issue with the ethics of promoting Vantage frames on the TW boards. It is TW’s decision as to whether to allow or to disallow this practice – and they’ve obviously decided to permit it. For all we know, Paul (who goes by the username ‘Racketdesign’ on these boards, and who seems to be the head of Vantage) has an agreement with Don of TW to promote Vantage on these boards. I do not know whether this is or is not the case – all I know is that TW has not objected to the presence of Vantage advertizing on these message boards – and so it is not up to any individual poster to object and to assume that TW is suffering a loss because of Vantage advertizing. It is more logical to assume that TW knows rather well the pros and cons of business – I doubt very much that the wool is being pulled over their eyes without their knowledge - and so it is only their perspective which truly matters in this circumstance.

    That said, I do agree with other elements of JD’s posts...

    Tommy, you are... how shall we phrase it?... a ‘volunteer’ for Vantage. This has been undeniably established. As part of your duties as a volunteer for Vantage, you are helping to both distribute Vantage racquets to and gather them from persons interested in Vantage who live in the U.S. Perhaps your volunteer duties include other official tasks, as well – I do not know. In addition to your volunteer duties at Vantage, you have posted an infinite number of very positive comments regarding Vantage racquets, the Vantage company, and Paul. As well, on these boards, you have jumped to the defense of Vantage in attacking a person for selling a Vantage frame on **** > http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=41772 . Also, you have, on these boards, accused Head of "stealing" ‘flexpoint technology’ from Dunlop, who had developed a ‘very similar technology’ a few years ago > http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=42956 . Paul (‘Racketdesign') just happens to be a former racquet designer at Dunlop – and so it does not take a genius to figure out where you got the ‘information’ that Head ‘stole’ the ‘flexpoint technology’ from Dunlop - a conclusion which is debatable, at best. It has seemed in some posts that you are merely Paul's 'mouthpiece' on these boards.

    All of this to point out, as JD did, that your relationship with Vantage, and with Paul, extends well beyond a customer/company relation. While you may not be an official paid employee of Vantage, it is quite clear that you are doing work on their behalf. Therefore, no matter what you say, you are a member of the Vantage team. As such, one might find that, with all of your work for/defense of Vantage, there is a very real potential for there to be a conflict of interest in any circumstance in which you express an opinion of Vantage; that your perspective is not an objective one. And so, I would strongly suggest that you do one of two things: either cease ALL of your volunteer duties with Vantage, or cease to post your opinions of the Vantage company and their products. Anything less would throw your already questionable integrity into even greater question.

    On the subject of a Vantage frame being made up to play "darn close" to a Prestige Classic...

    The iPrestige comes much closer than the Vantage to the shape and mold of the Prestige Classic. Yet the iPrestige FEELS very different than does the PC in play. I'm sure the same can be said (and has been said) of the LM Prestige (I have not hit with the LM Prestige, and so cannot comment directly on its comparison to the PC).

    Further... the Wilson ROK has specs that are similar to the Prestige Classic. It FEELS nothing like the Prestige Classic in actual play. If weight and balance were adjusted so that both elements were identical in a ROK and in a PC, the ROK would still feel nothing like the PC. If the ROK were fitted with a Head shaped grip, the ROK would still feel nothing like the PC. Using your ‘logic', however, the ROK should play "darn close" to a PC – even closer than a Vantage, as the ROK has the added element of being able to match the PC’s 18x20 string pattern.

    Again, using your ‘logic’, Vantage can, by merely matching the head size, weight, balance, and grip shape, produce a racquet which can come "darn close" to matching the Prestige Classic’s feel. Logically, then, if the Head shaped grip were removed from this "darn close to the PC" Vantage, and replaced with a Wilson shaped grip, and the weight and balance tweaked a small bit, then this very same Vantage frame would now be instantly and magically transformed into a racquet which would come "darn close" to the feel of a ROK - even though the ROK feels nothing like the PC. You seem to feel that the Vantage racquet possesses chameleon-like properties; that it can be made to feel "darn close" to any racquet, simply by adjusting head size, weight, balance, and grip shape accordingly. And this, quite simply, is absurd.
     
    #44
  45. BLiND

    BLiND Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
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    1,615
    Location:
    Manchester, UK
    You know what, its 9:22am here, and I think I might take some dosage of that beer before long :)
     
    #45
  46. Russell Finch

    Russell Finch Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    188
    On behalf of all us poor ripped-off UK consumers, can I point out that Vantage is a UK company and £130 is a pretty standard price for a racquet here. The only reason you may think Vantage charge double the other manufacturers is because you get the others cheap!
     
    #46
  47. BLiND

    BLiND Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
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    Location:
    Manchester, UK
    Yes its true... I payed £115 (and thats cheap!) for my Head Prestige last time, and £130 for a custom frame is a complete bargain!
     
    #47
  48. TommyGun

    TommyGun Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2004
    Messages:
    530
    GrimJack, thanks for the prescription. Can I have an IC light or do I have to go for the pure IC? (LOL)

    Rather then get lengthy, let me say this:

    1. Someone recently posted about an 03 Tour on ****. Many of you probably ran to bid on it. That is more unethical then anything I have ever done here. I contacted people in Prince who I know, and the product was removed from **** within the hour I talked to Prince. So, like the Vantage, I also protected PRINCE. I told you guys I would, and do, and I did.

    2. Although there are a lot of posts from RD, I cannot think of a thread that he started that has to do with selling his frames or buying his frames. All the posts JD went through merely talk about the launch of a product and to look for it. Also, most were in response to a post about Vantage placed here by other players, not him. If you come to this board and ask a million times "when is Head coming out with Flexpoint technology, long before its really advertised (which happens here a lot) then those people are either industry insiders or got the word from someone in Head, and that they know will build buzz here. SAME THING.

    3. I came across the iZone stuff all on my own, thank you. I was researching racquets in those spec ranges for my nephew, and that frame had specs that appeared similar to what I was looking to get for him. I clicked on the technology button on their website since I admit I had never seen it before, and there it was. I didn't know anything about it until just before my post, and why I posted it is that it is so close in concept that I am amazed that there wasn't more buzz about it. Also, note, no Vantage reference in that post.

    4. I am not on the "Vantage Team" any more then I am on the Under Armor, X-45, Volkl, Unique, Gamma and Fischer teams. I love products from all of them and will give my opinions on them when there is an opportunity. And if my post helps, then fine. By the way, if I am doing such a disservice, why is my email box flooded with posters and voyeurs telling me that they like my posts and asking me for more racquet advice, NOT Vantage related?

    5. I stated about two weeks ago that if all of you wish to feel that I am a "company guy", then go ahead. I love the product and am not going to be ashamed to say so. But I have also stated, I AM A HUGE BELIEVER IN CUSTOM, AND NOW THERE IS A CUSTOM OPTION WITHING THE RANGE OF THE AVERAGE JOE. Yes, a bit pricey, but not in Boz range.

    6. Your example, Deuce, actually proves my point more. Yes, if you take some of the basic building blocks and tweak them, you can make a custom frame with similar specs feel differrently. If you just change grip shape alone that will make a huge difference. Now take the same basic spec, play with string, hopefully no tape, flex and Length, and yes, you can almost take two starting blocks with the same weight balance and grip size and turn them into two totally different frames. Oh, the key here is that you can get all those choices from ONE company, ONE place, ONE source and ONE transaction. That is how custom works. I don't think you guys get it.

    7. I will end with this, then I am done with this thread, and, well, answering to you guys. I shouldn't have let myself get sucked in to this in the first place. All of my qualifications are now posted somewhere on this board. Anyone who wants to know where I am coming from can look it up. There are still people here who make some interesting statements, then don't back them up, and when they make statements about their qualifications never answer when someone asks them about it. There was a thread a while ago where a guy felt duped because he took advice from someone who wasn't really qualified to do so. You won't get that from me.

    So, you will still see me when I feel its appropriate to post on products, Vantage or anyone else. You will also find my advice in the miscellaneous section. Take it for what YOU feel its worth. Otherwise, leave everyone else to judge for themselves, stop calling out everyone and lets get back to discussing the things that are near and dear to our hearts.

    And again, thanks for the prescription GrmJack. My IC light was great...
     
    #48
  49. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    5,154
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Post regarding vantage by oh please:

    LOL!!! I could not agree more with your post, But then you
    went ahead and posted….

    You went from a funny criticism of
    vantage in your first post to a more positive tone !?! Oh
    please, you know more about “feel” in a tennis racquet
    than you want us to believe, which is why you swing
    the MW200G. Why don’t YOU give vantage a try and spec
    one out to your trusty MW200G and let us know. You
    know what…. You know better not to, because there is
    no way on earth that a #13 Vantage 95 with 18X20 at
    63 is going to play any where close to your noodle MW200G.

    As for comparing Vantage 90 to Prestige Classic 600,
    Proponents of Vantage keep on saying look “the head shape
    is similar to a prestige mid “ yet one major
    overlooked component is the shape of the throat which
    also plays a major factor in Flex/Feel. The throat on
    the vantage is closer to an Equilateral triangle while
    on the prestige classic 600 it is more like an
    elongated Isosceles triangle. Not to mention sans CAP
    and the missing major TWARON material which oh please
    forgot that it is used primarily for DAMPANING
    PURPOSES unlike Kevlar; but proponents of vantage want
    us to believe that their only 16X19 90 option would play similar to a
    18X20 prestige classic, they even go as far as saying “String the 90
    a touch tighter and you can negate the difference in
    string pattern”. Which goes beyond logic. Maybe if you
    are used to stringing with 18g in 18X20 90 then switch
    to 15g on 16X19 90, I can understand a bit negating
    the difference in string pattern factor.

    Anyway, many here know that I have taken the prestige line and the pro tour line under the Knife and have been testing them since the mid 80’s. Until Vantage introduces a different throat shape with dampening material possibly grafil injection RD ;-) on an 18X20 mid CAPed frame, then I will say close and would try one out. I think when Vantage started; they had WILSON in the cross hair as a comparison or reference. IMO they missed the boat when lined up against the classics of Head and Dunlop.
     
    #49
  50. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,172
    Huh? Commenting on the "quality" of racket geeks as customer base has got nothing to do with my feelings about Vantage, pro or con. It just is.

    That said, I am ALL FOR Vantage and what they're trying to do. I've even seriously thought about buying some sticks from them for no more interesting or compelling a reason than to help a good thing get off the ground. Why haven't I? 1) No swingweights listed 2) I just bought new frames maybe a month ago 3) I don't care for the semi-circular beam cross section a la the Pro Kennex 5g and finally - 4) There are many, many things wrong with my game that are completely and totally independent of racket specs or grip shape.

    And as far as the MW200G goes, feel is about the only thing it had going for it. Specs were consistently all over the map and I don't know if they were especially high in epoxy or what - but I can't think of a single person I know that's still playing them as their main stick because they seemed to go dead much, much more quickly than average. Great while they lasted, but they don't last.

    To summarize: Issues complex. Verbs bad. Vantage good? Vantage bad? Cannot decide. Brain hurt. Everything either good or bad. Oooga boooga. So important. Rackets! They are everything!
     
    #50

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