Criticizing Your Vanquished Opponent's Strokes

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I played a 4.0 dubs match with a new partner today. A nice lady who was playing up. We stood no chance from the get-go. No need to go into why. We took an unbelievable beatdown with grace and dignity. The only two games we won were my service games, when I served slice serves and kick serves to the deuce player, who missed just enough to allow us to win those sad little games.

    When we approached the net, we had something like the following conversation:

    ********************

    Cindy: Nice playing, ladies.

    Cindy's Partner: You guys are good. Nice match.

    Ad Opponent (to Cindy): Wow, you have a lot of topspin on your serve. That's awesome.

    Cindy: Thanks. You have some serious topspin your own self!

    Deuce Opponent (to Cindy): You know, there's something you could do better on your topspin serve. You're tossing the ball too far back. I know all the teaching pros say you should toss so the ball would fall down onto your head, but that's just wrong. You want to toss into the court, not over your head. That's why your topspin serves were landing so short, you know. 'Cause you toss the ball too far back.

    Cindy: Um, thanks. It's a new serve for me. I guess I will have to keep working on it.

    Deuce Opponent: Yeah, you should. It's landing way too short. Toss it into the court and it will be much better.

    *******************

    Afterward, my partner almost burst a blood vessel, she was so annoyed. "Who does she think she is? If your serve is so short, how come she kept missing it? Your serve is a whole lot better than her serve."

    I have to say, I was a bit taken aback. When I win a match, I never offer up unsolicited advice to my opponents. I certainly never criticize one of their strokes, especially if my stroke is no better. If my opponents asked me, I might offer up a tip or two, but I cannot think of a time when my vanquished opponents asked for a mini-lesson. So I keep my pie hole shut about their strokes unless I have something to praise.

    And if I did offer up unsolicited advice to someone I just beat from my vantage point at the opposite baseline, I would take special care to make sure my advice was actually correct.
     
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  2. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    sounds like all she wanted to do was help...some people are just like that
     
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  3. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I don't comment on my opponents' game. Regardless of whether I win or lose, I don't offer praise or advice.

    I usually just say something like 'well played' - as long as my opponent did not play so badly that he would view this as sarcasm, in which case I just say 'thanks for the match'.

    When an opponent makes comments about my game, I just nod my head slightly in an non-committal fashion and move on.
     
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  4. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    When you beat them next time, just say "Thanks honey for the tip, it really worked out for me"
     
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  5. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, I guess so.

    Maybe I should have "helped" her also. I could have replied, "Hey, thanks. Say, I kind of noticed that you're struggling with your weight. At least, I hope you're struggling and haven't given up entirely. Two words, dear: Fruits and vegetables. Although some push-ups and sit-ups wouldn't go amiss either."
     
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  6. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I want to see the thread that would have accompanied this conversation.
     
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  7. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    This is the approach I take.

    Only exception is when I am playing a good friend in a match that is not part of a tournament or a league. Since its not competitive and we are good friends we often give praise or constructive criticism to each other.
     
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  8. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    I completely agree. I am not humble enough to do the whole 'you played great.....or I had a lucky day'.......that some do.....when they win.
    '

    This is the first time I have agreed with OP......

    That is annoying......although I have heard much worse. It did seem as if she was offering advice......just probably not worded as smoothly as it could have been, if at all.


    Whn I do lose....Im already feeling down and making excuses as to why I lost......why would I need your help????
     
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  9. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    I wouldn't be insulted if someone decided to offer advice. I'd listen, and either agree they have a point or just throw it out (in my own head) as bad advice. In this case it would definitely be the latter, sounds like awful advice for a kick serve.

    Don't get why you're even going there with the weight thing. Seems like you're making it out to be much more than it should be in your own mind.

    I wouldn't hardly ever offer any unsolicited advice myself, but will occasionally pay a brief compliment on a particular shot, and if someone compliments one of my shots (hey you've really got a nice backhand there), I'll usually pick a shot of theirs and return the favor (thanks. I wish I had your volleys though), or maybe just say thanks if they played fairly poorly all around nothing comes to mind. :shock:
     
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  10. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I always listen to advice people offer up, especially if they just beat me. If they are willing to offer up points as to how they defeated my game, I'm all ears. If I just thrashed them, there is little chance I will pay much attention to their advice.

    I find some people helpful, and others downright idiots. Not hard to figure out who is which.
     
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  11. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I can tell you in the golf world, it is considered incredibly bad form to offer unsolicited advice. I guess people hate it because it is presumptuous and intrusive (and often this type of advice is just plain wrong).

    Personally, if some stranger killed me in a match then offered me advice, I would take a very dim few.

    I'm still laughing about "overweight" comeback thing.
     
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  12. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    I don't agree with what they said.

    However, if everyone acted "normally", we wouldn't have anything to discuss here.
     
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  13. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Agreed. Perhaps Cindy's opponents should have asked and said "Do you mind if I offer you advice on your serve?".
     
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  14. jonnyjack

    jonnyjack Rookie

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    #14
  15. decades

    decades Guest

    what's worse is when you get lessons from people you beat 6-0.
     
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  16. ChipNCharge

    ChipNCharge Professional

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    Or, "are you pregnant, or just gaining weight?"
     
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    By the way . . .

    I just want to go on record that my kick serves were not landing short because of my toss. They were landing short because (1) I was serving into the wind, and (2) these short serves seemed to be working.

    There are a lot of players who do not move forward into their returns and who instead wait for the ball to come to them. If I hit a kick serves that dives close to the net, these players will often misjudge it just enough. Add in the players who struggle with mid-court balls in general and even a short kicker isn't the kiss of death.

    Not that I'm feeling defensive or anything . . . . :)

    Cindy -- who thinks she needs to let the ball drop more and use more legs to get the ball higher over the net for additional depth
     
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  18. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I WISH I could consistently hit short twist serves. Then I"d go for MORE ANGLE, run the player into the sidefence, and my ball will have already hit there...:shock:
    Unfortunately, the majority seem to clear the net by 4', and land close to the service line with a high bounce....:(:(
     
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  19. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Lee, I can't even place my kick serve. Or, more accurately, I should say I cannot get it to land anywhere except the place the last one landed.

    On those rare occasions when one goes short and angled . . . automatic ace.

    It last happened in November, I think. :(

    OK, now I have to go play another match (yes, a second match -- Gawd, I am so sore!). I predict I will be thinking about my toss and will double-fault my head off.
     
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  20. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Why is it that the very players who offer unsolicited and controversial advice are the very same who have the least tolerance for receiving such advice?
     
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  21. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Also i hate guys that say "Nice serve", after they rip it right back at your feet. I am like if it was such a nice serve, how did you return it.
     
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  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I pick up knowledge from whatever source I can. Will you walk away if a diamond ring has fallen into a pile of sheet?
     
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  23. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    No, it's more like, do you dig into every pile of sheet you see, hoping to uncover a hidden diamond ring?
     
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  24. Doubles

    Doubles Hall of Fame

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    I guess I'm now realizing that not a day goes by where you don't have some kind of tennis drama.
     
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  25. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    I'm guilty of doing this to a friend I play against. He does it to me too though...

    :lol:

    -Fuji
     
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  26. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Not true.

    I have tomorrow off. Thank Gawd.

    Geez, I am playing way, way too much tennis.
     
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  27. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    No, but I will walk away if a huge stinking turd has fallen into a pile of sheets. :)
     
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  28. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Too much stress. You should give up tennis. I have pretty much never had as much stuff happen to me as you describe here. Maybe you can start a blog. :)
     
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  29. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Mmmm, I think you probably have had stuff happen in your matches. Maybe I'm just a tad more observant? :)

    Take last night. I was playing a 2-hour timed match with a partner with a reputation as being, um, let's say "pr*kly."

    We played the first two points of the match, with her serving. After the end of that second point, the opponents turned their backs as they walked to their position and had a conference. Total time spent in conference: less than five seconds.

    My partner was apparently annoyed by this conference, so she yelled out, "Yoo hoo! Yoo hoo!" in a sarcastic tone meant to convey, "No talking! I'm ready to serve."

    Yuk. Yuk and double yuk. People have conferences in doubles, OK? It is not unreasonable for opponents to say something to each other briefly between points. If someone objected to my having a brief conference with my partner after two points had been played, I would think they had a screw loose. I just ignored my partner and faced the net, to make sure she didn't get the idea I thought this was in any way appropriate.

    So yeah. Drama. Did I start the drama or have anything to do with it? No. Did I find this behavior needlessly confrontational? Yes. Was it the end of the world or something worthy of its very own thread on TT? No. But it did happen, and it was "stuff" that was out of the ordinary.

    "Stuff" happens all the time. Just gotta pay attention. :)
     
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  30. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    yeah. women tend to be more picky about others behavior. I notice this in my wife as well.

    your tennis exploits really should be in a blog. they are quite entertaining. they show the unique perspective and insights of a female mind. your posts have pretty high entertainment value compared to most posts here on TTW.

    One thing (drama'ish thing) I did have happen to me is during womens league tennis at my club. A lot of the women will ask me not to play on the court next to them if they have a match? even if it is the only open court. They expect me to wait for an hour or more to finish their match. And get uppity if I decline to wait. Really? you can't handle someone playing next court over? Is it center court at the US Open now? lol...

     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2012
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  31. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Eh if possible I'd just assume *not* notice and remain blissfully unaware of whatever drama (real or imagined) is going on, while continuing to play an enjoyable game for a bit.

    But your way is certainly more entertaining for these boards. :D
     
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  32. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for the kind words.

    Seriously, though . . . There was a women's league match going, and they had a problem if you used the adjacent court?

    I have never heard of such a thing. When we play a league match, we deal with whatever nonsense is happening on the adjacent court. If it's a kiddie clinic and they are raining balls over the curtain and causing lets on our court, so be it.

    I did have one fellow who was mighty disruptive while we were playing a playoff match, though. Outdoors, public courts. Our court was next to the hitting wall. The hitting wall itself was very high, maybe 20+ feet, and it was surrounded by a chain link fence that was maybe 10 feet high. The hitting wall was oriented such that any balls he hit too high would go over the wall and land harmlessly onto the second hitting court. Only if he shanked one badly would it fly sideways over the fence and onto our court.

    This guy (did I mention that he was shirtless and would have been well advised to put on a shirt?) was hitting against the wall as we played. He was there the entire 2 hours, hitting and hitting and hitting. Trouble was, he had zero control -- even while hitting against the wall. Yep, he must have shanked 10 balls sideways onto our court. Sadly, his etiquette was so poor that he would come and retrieve his ball mid-point *and* leave the gate open when he left.

    That wasn't you, was it? :)
     
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  33. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Cindy, it sounds like your opponent is an insecure egomaniac and was trying to downplay your successful serve which made her feel weak as a player. By finding fault in your good serve, it pumped up her ego, and was an attempt to belittle you.

    This happens sometimes in tennis. I remember a guy coaching next to me on a public court started giving me free advice about my backhand, as if talking down to me, like my backhand was no good. He was grandstanding, trying to minimize me, as he knew I was the champ of the courts. So I replied, "Hey thanks for the advice but my backhand works fine the way it is. It's good enough to kick your ass in a match." Of course he got all upset lol but of course he did not accept my challenge to a match.

    I think you could have replied to her by saying, "if my serve is hit so wrongly why couldn't you adapt and return it so easily?" You have to play mental chess with opponents : )

    Thanks for sharing you story,
     
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  34. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    He said nice serve, he didn't say who is was a nice serve for :) If my opponent hit serves that I could rip back at their feet with impunity, I'd be inclined to think they were nice serves as well
     
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  35. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Cindy is just willing to take situations that arise to start threads about them and judging by the number of replies to her posts then it sure seems to be a good thing. I think that if I were willing to go through the work of creating a thread for all the different situations that come up with tennis then I could start just as many as her. Just off the top of my head here are issues that have come up with us in the last week.

    What to do about mixed doubles team with a married couple where one person is clearly not at level.

    How to handle it if in mixed the guy gets accused of headhunting the girl after hitting her with the ball.

    What do do about a married couple for mixed where one person wants to play with the other, but the other doesn't and but also doesn't want to express this.

    On the mixed team there were 2 people who were hooking up and it ended badly and is now causing all sorts of tension.

    There is a girl who has been a terrible email communicator. The captain sent her an email asking whether she was available that she didn't respond to. Once the lineup was put out then she asked why she wasn't in it.

    The captain of the team is pressuring people nursing injuries to play even though everyone else knows that they should probably sit.

    Whether to play people who are flying back the night before from another continent when they want to play even though they are likely to be jetlagged.

    There is a girl on the team that we are facing tomorrow that works for the club. They pissed her off at work so she took herself out of the lineup and now they have to default a line.

    I mean all of these things would be perfectly valid threads to start and these are all from the last week. Being aware of the situations doesn't at all reduce my enjoyment of the game.
     
    #35
  36. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    She was probably just trying to be nice. I always like getting tips from players I respect. Sometimes they are garbage, but other times they can be very helpful.
     
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  37. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Actually I had this exact same thing happen to me recently. There was a women's league match going on at the club, using three side-by-side adjacent courts (the kinds with no fencing between the courts). The match on the middle court had just completed when I arrived with a friend looking to hit. There were no other available courts. We asked to use that court, but the ladies would not let us. Since their reservation on the court had not yet expired, there was nothing we could do.

    I understand their preference to avoid the potential of being interrupted by stray balls... but still, if the situation were reversed, I would have let them use the court.

    BTW, I don't know if it has anything to do with gender... I know guys who are shall we say uptight who would have behaved in the same selfish way.
     
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  38. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Hmmm. Interesting question.

    Most of our matches are played indoors with curtains, so having someone on an adjacent court isn't a big deal.

    Hmmm. What about outdoor courts? If my teammates and I paid good money for a court and someone wanted to use the last 30 minutes of our reservation to hit, would I say OK?

    You know that no one has ever asked? If there is a reservation system, folks just wait until the horn sounds.

    Yeah, I would let them -- if they asked nicely. If they just charged out there or were behaving like jerks, not so much.
     
    #38
  39. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I think the guy was ttwarrior.... :)

    Seriously though. Yeah. The captain of the womens team at the club stands outside by the lounge area by the courts and asks people not to play next to their players. There are 8 hartru and 2 hard courts. They take up 6 courts usually. So there is usually an empty court next to theirs. There is no fence as its outside but there is a little sitting area between each court of about 5 feet paved with stone with chairs etc.... there is a lot of space. There is no reservation of court time as when they are done with a match and vacate a court its free to use. It does not cost them anything beyond the club fees we all pay. The place is not busy enough to have sign up times.

    She has all of the players expecting nobody besides their team members playing next to them during a match. Its wrong and I just tell them I won't bother them. Its actually against club rules to hold a court when no one is actually on it. You cant be playing on court 1 and tell someone coming on court 2 you can't play on it when it is sitting empty.
     
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  40. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    It is very irritating for me when someone tries to do this. Thankfully it's been years since this has happened. (I keep winning :lol:)
    If someone tries to do it, I ignore it.
     
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  41. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

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    On the flip side occasionally I will have an opponent ask me "What could I have done better in this match?" And I'm thinking I don't know, serve harder, hit more winners, lose weight? And I don't want to insult the person by saying something like your volleys suck, hence all the drop shots, or your backhand sucks, that's why you never saw a forehand. So I usually just say something like "Work on your consistency", which is just about the most obvious advice that you can give. Yes, more consistency helps, that's the secret! Lol
     
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  42. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    She wouldn't like me. I'd just go out there. Especially if she is trying to tell me that I have to play on hard courts when there is an open clay spot.

    Don't know what kind of rules your club enforces, but that'd be worth complaining about.
     
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  43. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    dood they were bein friendly. if u dont like the advice just ignore it
     
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  44. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Even when people ask, they may not really want to know.

    I once went to my team's match as an alternate and watched the doubles. After my pals lost, they asked me what they could do better. I said, "sometimes it looked like you were standing still at net and not doing a split step."

    They looked a bit underwhelmed with my observation.
     
    #44
  45. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    I had a guy ask me for advice after a social doubles match...they were all 3.5s so compared to them, they though I all played college tennis.
    He was very grateful for the advice, but Ive learned to never give it unless offered.

    I told him with his grip, he was never going to be able to hit the kind of shots he wanted. Thats a long road, though.

    But the main things I see are wrong grip, lack of footwork, poor shoulder turn.
     
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  46. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I've had a couple of players offer unsolicited advice, after first complimenting me on one or more aspects of my game. It was good advice, imo. So, I smiled and said thanks.
     
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  47. Mike Hodge

    Mike Hodge Rookie

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    unsolicited advice

    I let unsolicited advice slide --- once. After that, I tell the person that the only time I want advice is: 1) when I'm paying for it. or 2) ask for it.

    Sometimes people actually offer quality advice, but in Cindy's case this was classic insecure, passive-aggressive nonsense. Incredibly poor form, IMO.
     
    #47
  48. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    dood y u gotta ascribe nefarious motives 2 ppl? ur sayin its passive-agg but who knows. my bro is a ski instructor, but dad still gives him tips when we hit the slopes. some ppl just wanna help

    tennis be a social sport n we all out there 2 have some fun, meet some ppl n get better. lotsa ppl enjoy riffin off each other n gettin feedback on their shots - look at this forum, every1 always chattin about what they do good n bad. mebbe sometimes unsolicited advice a bit misguided but no need 2 get all bent out o shape about it. just ignore it if u dont like it. tbh it seems more insecure 2 take offense at advice than 2 just let it slide

    i generally prefer 2 mind my own bizniz but i dont mind if other ppl comment on my strokes - either compliments or tips. put it this way - if u tell me im droppin my head on my serve, at least i have a choice 2 dismiss it as stupid/irrelevant. if u never mention it, i may never kno i have a problem

    at the end of the day, y do i care if my opp thinks i have perfect or flawed shots? scoreboard brah. it aint changin
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
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  49. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    This is my general attitude about it as well. As you said, we're out there to have fun, make new tennis friends, and hopefully improve while doing it. I haven't played that many league matches since getting back into tennis, and so far nobody who's competing at (or slightly above or below) my level has offered me any advice, and I haven't offered anybody at any level any advice. I think we realize that we're all playing more or less equally badly, and we're able to have a laugh about it. :)

    The two players who did offer me advice are competing at a much higher level than me, and they did preface their advice with compliments, and since I had good hitting sessions with both of them, I was thankful for what they offered.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
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