Crosses Tighter than Mains, Head Radical MPs

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by gkamieneski, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. gkamieneski

    gkamieneski Semi-Pro

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    There seems to be a plurality of threads here concerning racquet head deformation in Head Radical MPs. Along with that is a lot of discussion regarding stringing crosses tighter than the mains to eliminate the shortening of the racquet's head.

    Is this something most prevalent with the Head Radical MPs? I have 4 of them, from an iRadical to a Youtek and it seems that the LM and MG models are the most prone to this anomaly. Is it something that only occurs with 2 point mountings at 6 and 12 o'clock? I string my Radicals at 57lb equal mains/crosses, but I am starting to consider using 55lbs for the mains and 57lbs for the crosses to see if this eliminates the problem.
     
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  2. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I had a lot of trouble with Head racquets in general before I started to really learn how to string racquets properly... and bought a better stringing machine. Now I've strung many Head racquets, amongst other types on my new machine and have never had a problem with warping. Mine is a 2 point mount as well.

    what kind of stringing machine are you using?
     
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  3. gkamieneski

    gkamieneski Semi-Pro

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    Mine is a 35 year old, 2pt, drop weight machine and I have been stringing for 40+ years. A search revealed a lot of instances of this problem with Head Radicals so I wonder if anyone has a solution.
     
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  4. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    The oversize Head racquets do deform and I believe should be a few pounds tighter on the crosses. The Stringway tension advisor shows a difference of 8 lbs. but most people would be afraid to do that much. I say experiment with what works for you. That could be 3 or 5 lbs. If you get the racquet to stay close to the unstrung shape your good to go.
     
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  5. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I read on a well respected tennis site that the difference in tension between the mains and crosses is typically about 32-37%. This is due to weaving, which tightens the mains, and the friction the mains apply to the crosses, which results in less pull on the crosses. Based on head shape, the ideal difference is more like 25%.
     
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  6. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    i don't have any problems with my MG Rad MP's. They do deform abit, but always seem to come back to shape once done stringing. I use the same tension (58 ) for both x and m.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
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  7. gkamieneski

    gkamieneski Semi-Pro

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    Do me a favor and measure the outside hoop of your MG Rad MPs (H & W) and I can compare. No doubt, some of the Head Rads are more oval than others. The LM Rad MP especially seems more circular than oval.
     
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  8. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    10 5/16" w x 13 7/16", roughly.

    26 15/16 length.

    i only measured one as they are not all EXACTLY the same , but are too close to worry about. (with 1/8 or less inch)

    also, i use a 6 pt (gamma 6004) so MAYBE it does a better job than a 2 pt. on a racket that obviously deforms to some degree.
    nonetheless, i've never experienced any problems, they all come out within 1/8 or less in total length (i use that as a measure of deformation, never even bother with head shap as they always appear fine).

    edited the headsize measurements based on two of four frames(they measured the same).
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
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  9. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    We need the measurements just inside the frame, length and width. Centimeters would be nice.
     
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  10. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Why do you need any measurements? Measure a racket you're going to strings with the strings cut out. When you're finished the measurements should be the same.
     
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  11. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    I may be interested in something else, Irvin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  12. gkamieneski

    gkamieneski Semi-Pro

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    My reason for asking about the MG radical is because I think it deforms more easily.

    Strung, mine is 13 5/16, 10 1/2 and 26 11/16. Those are outside measurements.
     
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  13. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    who's "we"? seems to me the outside measurements should suffice. if not, feel free to explain why and i'll try to measure them again. 1 inch = 2.54cm, btw.

    gman, seems you racket is coming up short, thus i'd assume the head is wider than it should be. as i stated, i string on a 6 point and it seems to hold the head in shape nicely while stringing.
     
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  14. gkamieneski

    gkamieneski Semi-Pro

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    I agree. I am using a 2-pt mounting, but I do not get the distotion when similarly stringing an iRadical MP.
     
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  15. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    to be sure, these MG rads distort, but i do ok.....maybe the 6 pt helps. i know the flex level is around 56, not sure if that is a factor but likely related at least. i believe it may be the most flexible of the radical mp's....

    you might try a small bar clamp across the frame and see if that helps.?

    edit: btw, all of my MG rads (4) are fairly new (China) cheap on sale TW versions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  16. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    Me and a few guys here were interested in using the Stringway Tension Advisor to see what it suggested for tension on this racquet. The Stringway Tension Advisor goes by inside measurements and I think cm. Yes, I could have used your measurements and tried to adjust for the beam width and converted to cm. I was looking for easy for me.

    I do not see where this is an issue of 2 point or 6 point. A good 2 point will keep the frame from bulging out very well. If anything a 6 point will allow a very small amount of movement outwards because the side arms are mounted gently against the frame until the frame gives while stringing the first few mains. Then the frame will be tight against the side supports. A 6-point has very poor center support and relies on the side arms.

    As for frames snapping back, I just don't see that happening. Can a frame exert forces greater than the tension of the mains and crosses? If not, how could it ever snap back into shape. And if you think the strings will move around and even out, try using a black sharpie and drawing a straight line down the mains and across the crosses. From my experience, you will not see that line change shape after a few hits or a few sets.

    I am not an engineer or mathematician. So my logic in all of these may be very flawed. I don't understand why we assume a racquet will do best by stringing the mains and crosses with the same tension. I would think it would take knowing the frame length and width, number of crosses and mains and factoring in the effect of stringing the crosses on the cross and main tension. We know that the friction of weaving the crosses through the mains reduces the cross tension and we know it increases the mains tension. I know Stringway factors in the length and width and the number of mains and crosses but did they factor in the other factors?

    Simply put if you have a 18 by 20 pattern and you string all strings at 60lbs you would have 1080 lbs of pressure in the mains and 1200 in the crosses. Pretty close but the other factors are not added in. A 16 by 19 pattern at 60lbs of tension would have 960 lbs of pressure in the mains and 1140 in the crosses.

    I have found the Stringway Tension Advisor to be very helpful in the past but I would like to know if they have factored in the effects of the crosses on the tension of the mains.

    Most racquets seem to benefit from the crosses being lowered but the Head oversize are one of the few that seem to benefit from the crosses being higher.
     
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  17. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Clearly you and I don't understand. Clintspin uses the Stringway tension advisor which defaults to metric and uses inside dimensions of the head to determine tension. Maybe he wants to plug in the numbers so he can tell us the correct tension for the racket. There was some percentages thrown out by the OP for tension on mains and crosses. I would not put much faith in those percentages but the TA does seem to work.

    EDIT: Of course the TA uses the figures for an unstrung racket so would you mind cutting your string out first?

    EDIT: Evidently I did understand
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  18. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    the correct tension for my rackets is 58#. but thanks for the insight Irvin. :)
     
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  19. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    i hear ya. my frames come off the machine at or near unstrung size and shape. 6 pt (i do snug my frames abit more than what i see others do in video, but not overtight....i don't "pre-stretch" the frame). basically, they don't deform much during stringing, but they do flex a fair amount. and no, they don't "snap back", they just never get much out of shape, that's just how i roll.

    I'll get you inside measurements for your TA pleasure. these will be strung measurements..... for now. (but they will differ less than 1/8 inch in total length from unstrung, promise).
     
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  20. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Food for thought

    Here is a little food for thought. I more often than not tend to not cut strings out of a racket then immediately mount and string them. I have a Head Speed Elite to string and cut the strings out. The overall all length measured just under 26 15/16" and cutting after 5 minutes of removing the string. After letting the racket stretch (spring back) for 15 minutes the racket measured 27" exactly. You may want to keep this in mind if you use the TA. Also it may be a good idea to at least cut your strings without pulling them out well before mounting the frame on the stringer.
     
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  21. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    i was interpreting "snap back" as once racket is fully strung (crosses pulling racket back into shape). I have no doubt that you measured what yo did and i'd call 1/16' negligible.
     
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  22. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    241 mm wide x 321 mm long, inside measuements.

    MG rad MP.

    seems irrelevant since you can't input the shape (elipse?, etc), thus discounting any measurements across and along the axis of the frame. some are more round, others more oval. but please let me know my ideal tension, thx.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  23. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Stringway TA
     
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  24. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    so it says i should string at 51. about right once my 58 relaxes and after a few hits.

    see.

    that TA is way too simplistic (spin vs. no spin? hahahaha) to be worth a damn. but i'm probably way off base here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  25. Clintspin

    Clintspin Semi-Pro

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    So it looks like the TA shows it should be strung at about 1.5 lbs higher on the crosses. So pick the tension you like for the mains and try the crosses 1.5 lbs higher. I don't think it makes a whole lot of different with the Midplus Radicals. There is a much bigger different with the Oversize Radicals.
     
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  26. TfReAk

    TfReAk Rookie

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    I also have the MG Rad MP and I use the stringway method. I string my mains @22kg and my crosses @23kg if I'm correct, but the crosses are tighter than te mains. On the Dutch version of www . string forum . net is an online tool to calculate the tensions.
     
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  27. TfReAk

    TfReAk Rookie

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    Sorry Irvin...missed your post. But that is the online tool...very handy.
     
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  28. pauliewa

    pauliewa New User

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    I string my rad pros at 55/52 and haven't noticed any warping or flexing (though I haven't been looking for it). Should I be worried about damaging them? Fwiw my machine is neos 1500.
     
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