Cycling: The Dirtiest Sport Of Them All

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Cindysphinx, Jul 5, 2010.

  1. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    What a joke and stupid stereotypical comment; I dont actually watch House or CSI. What are you, twelve years old? Continuing a discussion with you wouldnt be the best use of my time, and by the way, you made all of the assumptions here including the use of the word "regularly."
     
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  2. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    It sounds like you need more "regularity," perhaps more fiber in your diet?
     
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  3. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    Right, so you stopped at the off-the-cuff quip about watching too much tele-drama and didn't read the rest of my post? Or, perhaps more likely, you read the rest of the post and decided to ignore it as it had logical points in it that you simply couldn't debate? For the record, if you expect more than a joke or a stereotypical comment, maybe post something that is equally more than a stereotypical comment yourself, or even, post something that seems less of a joke.

    You have a problem with the adverb? Or a problem with the fact that I said that the risk was indeed more than an instance? For doping to be effective it is rarely a one-off occurrence, in fact, for it to be in any way successful usually requires many instances just to understand how it affects the athlete in question. In many cases, it also requires a regime (eg. daily doping) to adjust baseline levels so that the doping doesn't appear as an outlier.

    You can claim it's 'not the best use of your time' if you want, but remember: You were the one that put out the comment that doctors are doping elite athletes without their knowledge. You've done nothing to back it up, just thrown back some pointless word-play.

    So let's end the word-play: Do you have any proof of multiple instances of doctors illegally doping elite athletes in 2010 (or thereabouts) - ie. doctors doping athletes without their knowledge?

    OO.
    ....who is clearly a verbose 12 year old with a moderately decent knowledge of sport & doping.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
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  4. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    Read my post and tell me where I said doctors were doping athletes without their knowledge. I never said that. You were the one that went there. All I said was that the only way to know 100 percent if you are clean is to never take anything or let anyone do anything. My point was that you can be an athlete with "morals and ethics" and get a tainted supplement. Or someone can make a mistake. You can do everything right and something can happen. I felt like that needed to be said in this thread. And you are not the only person with knowledge on this topic. Believe it or not when I posted to you in this thread I thought we might have an intersting discussion.

    The House comment was unnecessary. That is not a surprise though, seems to happen to the women on this forum. When Canadian Chic made a comment about the Kardashian show people assumed she was jealous. So typical. If I say something I must have got it from a TV show. That combined with all of the assumptions you made without asking me what I meant just made me think, why bother?
     
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  5. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    lol, that is pretty funny actually.
     
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  6. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    oh and by the way, there is actually a pending case where there might be an ethical issue with a doctor, so that is an interesting point you raised. I forgot about that, was thinking more about the mistakes scenario. Who knows what the facts will turn out to be in that case though.
     
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  7. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    "Reach a certain level in sports" + "Lose control over what goes into you body" + "Unless you don't go near a doctor"

    ^^Yes, I assumed that was what you meant. Sure, it was an assumption but it wasn't a long bow to draw.

    Ok. It is a point. I don't think it's a big point in this discussion, but that's imho.

    Oh please. The only reason I said what I said there as a sarcastic quip in response to the 12 year old quip. I didn't say I was the only one. Me highlighting my own knowledge doesn't logically exclude others.

    Ok.

    Whoooah there. Back the truck up. Me quipping that your comments seemed TV-Drama-inspired is sexism? Where do I start?

    a. I have no firm idea that anyone is a guy or a girl on here until they actually say so, and even then...

    b. Guys don't watch too much TV too?

    c. I watch house. Does that make me female? Or at least somewhat androgynous? I might have to stop watching it to protect my masculinity.

    d. Seriously. I mean....Seriously?

    Next time, please leave your irrelevant - to this discussion, anyways - agendas at the door. If you want to discuss sexism in and of itself, fine, I'll probably chime in. But don't spend time lecturing me about assumptions and then make a fat & juicy one yourself, and then let it spool up your own agenda and make accusations at me over it. It wasn't a sexist remark, and I resent the accusation that it was.
     
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  8. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    OrangeOne, it is refreshing to know their are still people in the world who have faith in the honesty and integrity of their fellow men and women when millions of dollars in endorsements are at stake. It's kinda cute.

    Really, now. Marion Jones doped for years and wasn't caught until her name turned up in BALCO's files. If she could do it, anyone could.

    Perhaps there are very few doctors willing to risk it.

    You only need to find one.

    And if you're an athlete, it's not like you face a firing squad if you get caught. You get a suspension and then you get to resume your career. I can see how someone who is No. 10 in the 100 m dash might dope to get to No. 1. Like I said, there are millions of collars at stake, and if you go to someone really really good you can pass endless drug tests and come up clean every time.

    Like Marion Jones did.
     
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  9. OrangeOne

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    Wow, I've had my thoughts called cute and I've also been called effectively sexist in the one thread. That's a first. Remarkably, I don't feel patronised at all!

    I'm glad you bring her up in a post that includes your comment:

    She went to jail. Ok, so it was for perjury, but it all started with the drugs, and stemmed from the drugs. The suspension you mention can end many careers. Many sports are putting tougher penalties in place. If an athlete is caught in the tour, the whole team can and often is booted - tens of millions of dollars are at stake.

    Disagree, she was already uber-elite. Your average competitor doesn't have the resources, pull, or access that she did. Again, doping (in a way to avoid being caught) is a science, and requires significant time, effort and resources to get it 'just right'.

    --

    Here's the thing. We are all presented with options every day in our life that represent ethical decisions, many that have financial outcomes. Some that risk our reputations too.

    What am I saying? I'm saying anyone can choose to throw their morals out the window at any time, and earn more dollars in questionable ways. Why is it that you think that just because people become a professional athlete they are automatically willing to do this?

    Remember, they're not just risking their career and reputation from friends and family, they're also risking the fame many crave so much, and potentially gaining a reputation of a different kind for life. I mean - do you think the average cyclist passes Landis in the street and waves a happy hello?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
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  10. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    Likewise, it is depressing to know there are people who have such little faith in mankind that they make a sweeping assumption that every single competitor in a particular sport must be doping. Particularly when they seem to have little interest in or knowledge of said sport.

    An open question to all: do you suspect that Lance Armstrong has been cheating (be it via drugs, blood transfusions or anything else that is prohibited) in the 2009 and/or 2010 TdF? A brief (or detailed if you prefer) description of why you hold your belief either way would be beneficial to discussion.
     
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  11. OrangeOne

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    ^^ Seconded, exactly my thoughts.
     
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  12. David_Is_Right

    David_Is_Right Semi-Pro

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    Most of us don't take things on blind faith. Rather, reason and evidence.
     
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  13. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    Unless you are able to provide evidence on each rider about whether they are clean or dirty, you will have to fill in the blanks with assumptions. Mine are as follows:

    - based on the past number of riders who have tested positive and those who have admitted to doping, it seems likely that some participants in this year's race are also doping.
    - there are some with a history of doping who have served a ban and are racing this year. Given their past deeds, I am as likely to believe that they are doping as I am that they aren't.
    - the majority of the field are not covered by the above assumptions, and so I like to work from the premise that, in general, people are essentially good.

    Based on this, I arrive at the opinion that there are likely to be some cheating in this year's Tour, but that the majority are clean. This position would of course be changed if evidence were provided to the contrary.
     
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  14. JohnnyCracker

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    #64
  15. LameTennisPlayer

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  16. cucio

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    Contador's official statement is that the substance comes from a contaminated steak (clenbuterol is used illegally to fatten up cattle for its ability to increase the muscle-to-fat body ratio.) The amount of substance detected could be compatible with this explanation.

    But yeah, who knows? As soon as top money makes its appearance, all bets are off.

    Then again, tests are getting extraordinarily precise (for good reason, since probably the cheaters employ clever methods to mask the PEDs) and accidental contamination is certainly possible. I have read somewhere that it is possible to detect infinitesimal residues of recreational drugs in the air or water of certain cities.
     
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  17. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Cindysphinx, July 2010 was great timing for the start of this thread. So, we have Landis and now Cantador, among many other cyclists that have tested positive. What about Armstrong's past now? So, this does look like doping was and perhaps still is very rampant with cycling. Baseball, American Football, Cycling, as well as Olympic sports have all had major doping scandals. It looks like every major sport is dealing with PED's.

    Here's another article: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5632256&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
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  18. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I can't see that Contador's done anything wrong based on the evidence released so far.
     
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  19. ProgressoR

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    didnt they find 1/400th of the amount of that substance required to make it illegal? such a small trace amount either means he is cheating and couldnt wipe all the traces or perhaps there is a logical innocent explanation.

    Guess we shall see which view prevails...
     
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  20. cucio

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  21. 813wilson

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    I'm not a fan of finding drugs in anyone's system, but there may be merit to his defense.
    Contador took the lead in the Tour at Stage 15 and never gave it up.
    The Tour rules stipulate that the stage winner and overall leader are tested each day. Stage 15 was run on the 19th of July. So he would have been tested on the 19th, 20th and the 21st is when they say he came up positive. Now I don't know when they test, but I believe it to be after each stage. If that is the case wouldn't that mean he was tested twice and then a third test was positive at the trace amounts stated?


    It reminds me of Hingis. Her cocaine level was so small, she would not have been punished if she were in the US military.
     
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  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, snap.

    Yeah, cycling is the dirtiest sport of them all. Not one of those riders -- not one -- is clean.

    Are we to believe that Contador never doped except this one time? Nope, this is just the one time he got caught.

    Dirty, dirty, dirty.
     
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  23. Benhur

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    #73
  24. Dags

    Dags Professional

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    I really hope you never get called for jury duty.
     
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  25. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    Here we go again.

    You know what? The sentence there in red is as "dirty, dirty, dirty" - or moreso - than you are saying the sport is. Just because some riders are dirty does not in any way mean all are.

    Why is it that people know that 'tarring everyone with the one brush' is an entirely wrong way to live, and yet because cycling has an element of cheating in it, people just feel ok to grandstand and write everyone off?

    Then again, I suppose it's like all middle-aged female tennis players who go to tennis coaching. They're all sleazy hussies* who are only there to have illicit sexual relationships* with coaching staff and cheat on their boring, fat career-obsessed husbands.

    Dirty, dirty, dirty.

    *Old english chosen to keep the above board-appropriate. I'm sure most can substitute modern terms.
     
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  26. Benhur

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    I think the actual amount is 1/40th of the minimum that testing labs are required to detect.
    From what I've read, it has to be one of two things:

    Either a transfussion from his own blood from a previous time, or food contamination. The food contamination is perfectly plausible, and cases of people becoming sick after eating meat contaminated with this substance have detected more than 200 times the amount found in Contador. What does not make sense is that he would knowinly take any while he knows he is being tested every day as long as he has the yellow jersey, which he got on the 19th. Also, such a trace amount would have no effect at all on performance.
     
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  27. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

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    But then we have the 'floyd' example, though admittedly he took what he took to regain the lead from memory.

    Agreed, unless he'd been masking it... if it can be masked?

    If it really is from the meat, well, I pity pro athletes even more in regards to eating.
     
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  28. JohnnyCracker

    JohnnyCracker Semi-Pro

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    50 picograms, 1/400 the amount WADA must be able to detect...
    He deserves the benefit of the doubt until "further scientific investigation" says otherwise.
     
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  29. borg number one

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    http://content.usatoday.com/communi...10/alberto-contador-drug-test-new-suspicion/1

     
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  30. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    So confusing... is the moral to the story:

    Don't blood dope from a teammate who used 'roids?

    A little tarnish for the Spaniards' otherwise incredible sports year.
     
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  31. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    The moral of the story is that sports are nearly 100% clean. Always have been. If this weren't true, they would for sure all be caught.

    Moral #2 is that those testing (and their partners in crime, the media) are unfairly targeting certain athletes, raising an unwarranted cloud of suspicion...........I always feel sorry for poor Barry Bonds. Not one shred of evidence linking him to steroid use (never tested positive to my knowledge), but yet everyone unfairly suspects him of wrong doing.
     
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  32. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This bad drug test from bad meat happened in the middle of the event. At a time when the racers are all traveling together and eating together.

    It's a pity that the whole team ate that same tainted meat. I expect them all to test positive too. Then we will know that the meat was definitely to blame.

    :huge eye roll :
     
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  33. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    We can agree to disagree, at least when it comes to cycling. Too many have been caught.

    Thanks for the laugh.

    The grand jury testimony was not supposed to get out - but it did. In it he says he 'trusted' his trainer and 'didn't know' that they were steroids. But you're entitled to believe what you want to.

    Also, if you look at pictures from his days on the Pirates and those from the Giants when he hit over 70 homers, and think that kind of muscle mass gain can be done cleanly, then I have to wonder what you know about weight training. You can't change your body type (google endomorph, ectomorph, and mesomorph if you're interested in getting educated). Nor is it easy to put on large amounts of muscle mass (BB allegedly came back with 30 lbs of muscle after only a 100 day offseason) after the age of 35. But again, believe what you want.
     
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  34. fundrazer

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    The rest of Astana wasn't tested though, I forget exactly how it works but I think its the top 3 riders from the team are tested on the rest days. It's already been stated that Vino (contadors biggest helper besides Navarro) did not eat the meat. Vino also did not test positive.

    Other interesting fact, not sure if it was mentioned though. They found traces of plasticizers also. This could possibly mean he was blood doping as plasticizers are found in IV bags, also found in food wrappers too I think.
     
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  35. r2473

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    1) Sure, there are a few bad apples. But clearly, the infrequency of positive tests showing wrong doing says that sport is pretty much 100% clean.

    2) I don't know of any test that proves BB took steroids.

    3) Professional bodybuilders put on more than 30 lbs. of muscle. If you read stuff from the shows they compete in, it says that athletes are tested. Ronnie Coleman for example has never tested positive for steroids (to my knowledge). Therefore we have to conclude guys like Ronnie Coleman have never taken steroids. In fact, he says this himself.
     
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  36. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Point by point:

    1) I guess you can disagree with Cindy and I on the meaning of a 'few'.

    2) No kidding! MLB didn't test for 'roids - players' union wouldn't allow it.

    3) Sorry, you're wrong. Ronnie competes in the 'wide open' bodybuilding - they don't test - it's assumed they all use. There is a bodybuilding org that is all clean - they test all the time - guys aren't nearly as massive. Go figure. And Ronnie was huge in his 20's - I challenge you to find proof that after the age of 35, Ronnie put on 30 lbs of muscle in 100 days and was tested clean. You won't - because it didn't happen.

    But if you want to defend BB for whatever reason, I don't have a problem with it - I'm not sure he's going to be convicted - expect the Feds to get him for something else, like tax evasion. I'm actually torn on this - if they want to take huge health risks for millions of dollars, my Libertarian streak can't really argue with it. But here in the US (not sure from your avatar if you're from the UK or just like that pic) it is against the law.
     
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  37. r2473

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    I'm going from memory here, but I think guys like Coleman, Cutler, etc. are all IFBB pros. If you read the IFBB website, I am sure you will find that they claim to be drug free.

    I'm not for sure if they test for "Olympia", but I know they used to. They caught people for diuretics a few times I remember.
     
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  38. r2473

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    #88
  39. CP3

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  40. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    They claim to not use yet seem to take 3-4 month vacations to mayalsia right before the contest season starts.

    As far as Bonds goes he didnt break the law if he was taking the cream and the clear because nobody besides the few people involved even knew what it was at the time. So something that the law doesnt know about cant be against the law.

    In this mans case I belive the meat story. apparently the levels were so low that the other teamates to have easten it may not have spiked high enough to begin with. there natual level is propbably lower than contadors and didnt pass the threshold.

    All these cyclyists use the undectable kind and are not dumb enough to take something that would be caught so easy.
     
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  41. CP3

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    Are you a bodybuilder? Are you a professional athlete? Do you realize how grueling it is to train properly? OF COURSE they're going to go on vacations.

    And why not train during those "vacations" as well?

    If you are implying that they are attempting to duck testing, you are WRONG.

     
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  42. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    You're usually such a solid poster. But you're so wrong on this...

    even if there is random testing NOW, these guys became mutants by using every 'roid they could get their hands on... Now they just work out to maintain the mass they have. As CP3 said before his banning (que pasa?) you ain't getting that big on protein shakes.
     
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  43. r2473

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    ^^ I'm just messing around.

    I'm sort of making fun of the crowd saying that without solid proof (meaning, positive tests / re-tests proving doping beyond a reasonable doubt), we cannot accuse anyone of doping. Taken to an extreme, this means we can't even accuse these cartoon-ish bodybuilders of doping (which is of course absurd).

    Count me in the "most of the guys are doing it" crowd. But no, I have no solid "proof". Just circumstantial evidence and healthy suspicion.
     
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  44. Spokewench

    Spokewench Semi-Pro

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    There is a regulation in UCI cycling that if your hematocrit level is higher than a certain level, you are not allowed to compete. Does not matter if you put red blood cells (your own) or took EPO or whatever to increase the level.
     
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  45. r2473

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  46. dlk

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    Wonder if I could get by with that at work? "That, is what heroin?" "Well I must have injested that with some tainted spaghetti from Afghanistan."
     
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  47. OrangeOne

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    I kissed a girl and I lined it / the taste of her cocaine chapstick.
    I kissed a girl just to try it / I hope WADA don't mind it.
    It felt so wrong, it felt so right / Don't mean I got high tonight.
    I kissed a girl and I lined it / Try
    prove it.
     
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  48. fundrazer

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    Eh, kind of old news regarding Contador. His legal team has been pushing the accidental contamination since this went public. I think they also refer a case of a German table tennis player who tested positive for the same stuff, clenbuterol.
     
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  49. AllLeague

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    Op: Reminds me of cross country a lot. People getting scratched, grabbed, pushed, and even spiked in the calf sometimes. Not fun, haha.
     
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  50. jamesblakefan#1

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    http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ap-nadal-contador
     

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