Define "Heavy Ball"

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by TimothyO, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    To quote LeeD

    Post 25, redundant fool

    :)
     
  2. Lautrec

    Lautrec New User

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    A ball that makes you feel like you are being pushed around.
     
  3. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Funny ding dere.....
    My 4.0 bud and I were out hitting, it started to rain, we had openned new DunlopHDHardCourtChamp balls (heaviest and knappiest), so we kept using them.
    Rain got so bad, we could hardly see each other, the court was a running water surface, we just kept hitting groundies to each other.
    Strange, we could hit harder (swing faster) than we could on dry courts, rallies lasted longer than normal (we weren't making each other run), and workout was killer (good killer, as it satisfied our tennis requirements for that day.
    He's 6'1" and 225lbs. using a HeadLMRadMid.
    Me, 5'11" and 143 lbs then, using a DunlopMfil 200.
    We hit for just over an hour in the rain.
     
  4. Tmano

    Tmano Professional

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    I don't think it is...it's a more penetrating low power shot that if hit well stays low and goes even lower to the court once bounces...but not a heavy shot. However it's an affective shot...i like to hit it with some side spin.
     
  5. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Did anyone say a wet ball yet?
     
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Exactly. I don't think slices qualify as heavy balls. Really nothing heavy about them. Nadal eats Fed's slices for lunch.
     
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    You two guys have never played a player who has heavy slices, that's all.
    Not your fault, you haven't played every different player yet.
    Fed's match slices are not heavy at all. BUT, when you and I hit with Fed, you can bet his slices are super heavy, when he wants to hit them. Matches, his slices are not the same ones he can hit to you and me.
    Doesn't Tmano's definition of the slices HE has faced imply a "heavy" ball?
     
  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    A slice doesn't have enough forward energy to qualify as a heavy ball. That is why no one classifies slices as heavy balls. Just like no one calls overhead smashes heavy even though they may be the hardest hit shots.
     
  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Ah, my young Jedi, you haven't played against a player with a really good slice.
    If you can't hit solid against the slice, it's "heavy".
    If you can crush the ball EVERYtime you face a slice, then you are correct, and Tmano also.
    I've played a few guys who can slice it back deep, make the ball skid awkwardly to either side, and hitting solid against that ball is almost impossible FOR ME, so it's heavy TO ME.
    Of course, they were not my peers, but rather a full level better.
     
  10. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    Slice is never heavy, regardless of whether you can hit solid off of it or not.

    Flat balls are also never heavy.

    LeeD, a better term for what you're describing is "ball that is hard to handle". Heavy balls are hard to handle, but not all hard to handle balls are heavy.
     
  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Ah, I see now, Jedi master.
    So, only topspin qualifies as heavy.
    Connors never hit a heavy ball.
    Rosewall never hit a heavy ball.
    NOW I understand, thank you.
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Correct. It is the topspin + pace which makes a heavy ball. A slice can be a reasonable shot, but never an overwhelmingly powerful one, unless someone makes stupid comparisons like Fed vs a rec player.
     
  13. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    Example, I play with someone that has good slice and twist serves. His sliders are fast and tough to get, such that i mishit them frequently. I would never term those things heavy.

    However, his well struck kick serves are more than aptly described as heavy.
     
  14. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    Even is Fed was blasting balls past you that are flat or sliced, they still wouldn't be heavy.
     
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I agree. Heaviness involves more forward and rotational twisting energy that a slice can never provide. An underspin ball can never overwhelm the racket, that is why slice is always considered a defensive stroke even at the highest levels.
     
  16. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    LeeD must have watched a Star Wars marathon recently.
     
  17. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    haha tell that to delpo. your balls are flat they don't feel heavy to me while being pushed around like a rag doll just trying to get your racquet on one of his balls. hard flat ball can gain topspin after the bounce as described by coach smith above. it would be interesting to measure spin rpm after bounce.
     
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Delpo's slices would still not be considered heavy.

    Flat and very hard vs one with a lot of topspin = interesting. It is on one side of the forward+rotational energy continuum and as you point out, reflection from the ground can produce topspin.

    But no, slices are not heavy.
     
  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Mikeler....
    For years, in the surfing community, I was known as the "Jedi Master".
    You can look it up on SurferMag forums, or go to any surf shop in SanFrancisco (there are currently 4 right now, as many as 7 around 10 years ago) and ask who the "Jedi Master" is.
     
  20. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    no not slice. slice is rarely described as heavy. more like tricky.

    I think pace is essential in adding extra topspin after the bounce, which could be the key to heavy perception for returner.
     
  21. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    One name... Jimmy Connors. Did he hit a heavy ball (groundie of course, his serve was pathetic for his skill level.)?
     
  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Was Jimmy Connor's slice considered heavy by his peers?
     
  23. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Generally I agree with you about Connors' serve, but go watch the '74 USO final between Connors and Rosewall. I was surprised at how effective Connors' serve looked in that match. He was hitting it hard compared to Rosewall, and it had a lot of nice action on it - some lefty american twist happening. Neither of these things have I ever associated with a Jimmy Connors serve.

    Connors pumped up his serve in the early 80's and that helped him pick up those two USOs and the W. Lendl choking a bit helped too on the USOs, but Connors clearly worked on his serve and got it at least to "decent" level (for a pro at that time).
     
  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    YOU figure it out.
    NO serve to speak of. Lowest level ATP volleys. Forehand grip forehand volleys and 2hbh grip backhand volleys. Relies on his groundstrokes and return of serves to be No. ONE ATP for a couple years.
    Was his groundstrokes considered "heavy"? He hit 50% topspin on his forehand side, the rest sidespin. He hit 50% topspin on his 2hbh, the rest a combination of UNDERspin and sidespin.
    What about Rosewall? He hit mainly a combi of slice and sidespin, and he was a pretty good player, with no serve.
     

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