Del Potro doesn't pat the dog. check out his girly WTA push strokes.

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by FrisbeeFool, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Del Potro's racket face isn't as closed as some of the other top guys on his takeback. He uses a more traditional grip and doesn't get into as much of a pat the dog position because his racket face stays a little more open. He has pretty flat strokes and maximum extension.

    He still has all the modern upper body rotation and racket head speed on his forehand. He still has that modern finish around his body.

    There's a great article on tennis player.net about his forehand. If you're not a member, just go to YouTube type in del potro forehand and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Edit: The topic of the thread is a sardonic joke, meant to get people's attention. Maybe it was in bad taste. Yes the thread title is a joke. Read the substance of the first post above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
    #1
  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Del Potro is a real man and doesn't need the fancy stuff. Only problem is his hard hitting probably resulted in his wrist injuries.
     
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  3. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Del Potro doesn't have much of a pat-the-dog on his stroke, but he also doesn't swing WTA-style.

    Here's a good blog post on the Del Potro style swing.

    http://blog.tennisspeed.com/
     
    #3
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    You're calling Del Potro's strokes 'girly'?
     
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  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think it was supposed to be sarcasm.
     
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  6. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    I was attempting a sardonic attack on what passes for conventional wisdom on these forums. I'm not calling his strokes girly. I don't think they're WTA style at all. If you read my full post, you'll see I noted Delpo's upper body rotation and modern finish on his forehand.

    I was mocking all the MTM folks who say extension on groundstrokes doesn't happen on the ATP, and it's an outmoded approach that still hangs on, on the WTA side.
     
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  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    DelPo is a tall guy.
    He doesn't get too many real high balls, to him, compared to a Rochus, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Hewitt.
    Doesn't it stand to reason his grip is closer to E, rather than strong SW's?
    We gotta pay attention to the special attributes of the player's we're analysing.
     
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  8. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Oh. ok. got it. no prob.

    Do the MTM guys say there's no extension on groundstrokes?
     
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  9. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Yeah, I sort of got that you were being sarcastic.

    I've never understood the difference between the "push" and "pull" strokes that used to be argued about here. However, there definitely is a WTA take-back, and Soderling is about the only ATP player I know of who seems to have it, though the rest of his stroke is not really a traditional WTA thing.

    At this point, I'm not big on the whole extension or non-extension argument. I think that it is best to just try to replicate the movement patterns of the top pros (or at least one who you think plays well and you could adapt) and try to ignore too much talk about what is happening that isn't based on what you can see.
     
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  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    No, so guess he is trying to stir up interest in his thread or demonstrating a lack
    on knowledge on MTM.
     
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  11. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    I took lessons from a guy that was 6 foot 2 and had a similar grip. I'm six feet tall and use a similar grip. As has been stated many times, some smaller WTA players uses flatter strokes and have similar grips.

    I've seen a lot of of old guys that are five eight and five nine that use similar grips. If you understand the concepts of your strike zone, taking the ball early, and moving back when necessary it won't be a problem.

    Federer is what? 6 foot 2? on his forehand his hand is more behind the handle than under it. His backhand grip is dare I say it? almost traditional? It's about the same as Sampras, but a little more extreme than a guy like Edberg.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  12. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Fed is 6'1". He jumps for high balls, choosing to pummel a winner over rallying over and over.
    Your coach played old days, less hop on the ball.
    YOU don't play 6.0 level tennis, so you face some slices, some flats, some sidespins, as well as 80% topspins, none nearly ATP pro level.
    If you start looking at old guys, you'll see some conti forehands too.
     
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  13. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    It depends on the day and their mood. A couple times I've gotten them to admit that their is some extension. Other days you have Limpinhitter calling people flat-earthers or 5163 claiming Robert Landsdorp and John Yandell don't understand the modern game.

    With Juniors it a huge problem you see a lot. A lot of juniors just brush the ball with a glancing blow, creating those loopy moonballs and don't hit through the ball enough.

    5263 has ruined countless threads. As soon as any wording happens about hitting out towards the target. He shows up and says no that's wrong. There's this new modern way to play where you pull up and across the target line. I personally think this kind of wording confuses people. It results in people finishing across their body without the good extension that should happen before the end of the stroke.

    Lately I've been using the term long follow-through, It's a little more vague and amorphous like a lot of the MTM cult language. I'm not sure if the terminology of a long follow through will pass muster with the modern tennis police. We will see.
     
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  14. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    My coach played for university of texas and pro doubles in the early to mid 2000's. His coach played in the old days.

    A lot of the oldschool advice is still applicable to the modern game.
     
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  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Not wild about LONG followthru. We can agree about trying to hit thru 2.5 tennis balls, I think. What happens afterwards is less important. We don't need to wrap the hitting arm around the body all the way to the back fence, do we?
    Just like a serve, after we hit the ball, we don't need to extend the followthru so the racket goes past behind the player, do we?
    Stop the followthru sometime after hitting the ball, so we can recover and get ready for the next ball.
     
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  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    and the reason he didn't make the pros is ...???
    He might have hit too flat, too conservative, meaning too inconsistent, compared to his peers.
     
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  17. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    My coach emphasized extension in his teaching. He also has modern topspin groundstrokes. Both things are possible. You've been brainwashed by the MTMers LeeD!

    Roger Feder best player of all time. Ends countless points with flat penetrating groundies. I personally think all styles can work at the highest of levels. I enjoy watching relatively flat groundstrokes and heavy topspin groundstrokes. I just get annoyed with all the MTM folks ruining these boards, saying there is one approach to modern tennis that works, theirs. How many successful modern players has 5263 developed? Look at coaches like Lansdorp and Macci and Salzenstein that emphasize extension in their teaching. I think they have a good record developing modern players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes, that is the number that comes from calculations too. I think it was rounded up to 3 which also nicely matched the number of balls in a can, and then continued to be used as visual aid. However, the can should be somewhat flexible, like a plastic tube, so that it can arrange itself on a gentle curve.
     
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  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I think old school flat forehands can go thru 5 tennis balls.
    Also, Nadal's buggywhip might go thru ONE tennis ball.
    Yes, it all can work.
    But don't forget, what a 6'4.5" guy does is not applicable to any of us, even at 6'1". I"m 5'11", so no dwarf. A strong SW grip works just fine.
     
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  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Clearly it has been confusing for you and I guess since you keep bringing up
    MTM and 5263, I guess you want that in your thread. Up until that, I was
    avoiding posting in this thread, and how as usual, the terms have been poorly
    worded. I'm happy to avoid this train wreck, wta push thread, But I ask you not
    to reference MTM or me, if you prefer not to be corrected.
     
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  21. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    LeeD how tall was Monica Seles?? I think with her flat lazer groundies would beat anyone on the forums who likes to run their mouth about how the modern game has changed things.
     
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  22. FrisbeeFool

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    How tall is Davydenko?

    What's Nicolai Davydenko? 5 foot 10. I think he made it to 4 in the world with his relatively flat, max extension groundstrokes.
     
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  23. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Feel free to contribute to the thread. What do you think of Delpo's strokes?
     
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  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Monica was at least 5'9", some saying as tall as 5'11".
    Nicolai was one of the exceptions. But look at his height peers, Hewitt, Rios, Nalby, Gonzo, Ferrer, do they pat the dog?
     
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  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think about them much. They do easily fall with the bounds of modern
    as discussed in MTM.
    I strongly prefer Davydenko's strokes as excellent modern examples.
     
    #25
  26. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    I was joking about the pat the dog thing, because it's a popular term on here. All the pros close the racket face somewhat depending on their grip and swing style.

    If you look at Delpos strokes which was the original topics of the the thread there are some interesting things going on. He hits relatively flat with max extension, and has been very effective doing so. With his grip and takeback he doesn't close the racket face as much as some of the other top guys.
     
    #26
  27. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Cool we agree on something. I'm a big Davydenko fan as well.
     
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  28. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    DelPo doesn't close his racketface as much as most other pros because he's always going for a forcing shot or winner. He doesn't want to play pitter patter tennis with the other topspinners around. As a result, he is less consistent and get's injured more often. As a result, he doesn't need to run and fetch as often.
    Just a philosophical choice. Why should a 6'4" player ever need to fetch and scramble? His forehand style works for him right now. I doubt it's ideal for anyone else, except maybe Fed, who's unique in his own right.
     
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  29. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    5263, Check out my Jeff Salzenstein thread. He's using the Robert Lansdorp extension tips with his students. Guess he's on the wrong track too hmm? His students will never learn the modern game with traditional teaching techniques like that.
     
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  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Look, Jeff is a good guy and we have talked a bit. He is a fine player and working
    to build an instruction based career. He is smart to use certain names and
    associations in the manner he does. Don't be confused though, as Jeff's instruction
    is rooted in modern tennis and has studied it from Oscar. He has also referenced him
    a few times on his site.

    Many are impressed by certain names for
    one reason or another. Lansdorp has had tremendous success related to him thru
    the years, but that in NO WAY means that everything he does is correct.
    His successes are based on many items and there is plenty of room for a mistake
    here and there. His predictions about how the game would be played have been
    180 out, so it seems to me his vision for the sport's technique was quite flawed.
    I'm pretty familiar with RL and his work since he was one who I studied for the
    very reasons you like him, and was a pretty good coach and player even then,
    but my ball striking and coaching of technique really took a turn for the better
    when I discovered better modern instruction and realized how far RL was off in
    that aspect of the game. None of that is to say that RL is not at the top in
    several other areas. There is a lot more to the game than swing technique.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I looked and didn't see it. Care to provide a linK?
     
    #31
  32. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    his strokes certainly are relatively traditional

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGodD1fMfHY

    -high finish caught by the other hand
    -not a lot of WW motion and square racket face during most of the stroke
    -conservative grip (between eastern and SW I think)
    -relative straight arm and not so much use of the body

    still very powerfull stroke
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  33. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm happy we can agree. There is no reason we shouldn't all get along when
    we share our views.
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    He's 6'4 and a half ".....
    That's where the power comes from.
     
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  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Soderling has power. Berdyk has power, Philopousis and Kraijeck had power, anyone that tall with some athleticism has power.
     
    #35
  36. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    on the other hand there were players like schalken, todd martin and florian mayer who are tall but not very powerfull.

    height and leverage does help but you still need those fast twitch muscles to generate power. explosiveness is inherited to a large degree (see small pitchers like lincecum or pedro martinez. however if two guys do have the same explosiveness the taller and bigger guy often has an advantage (like randy johnson)
     
    #36
  37. Headshotterer

    Headshotterer Professional

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    OP is an idiot.
     
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  38. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    This is exactly right. He hits flatter than most which I think contributes to his inconsistency. It is a lower margin style that is not currently the formula for success of the top-10.

    In his US Open match against Djokovic this year he had dozens of points that he pounded ball after ball incredibly deep and back and forth to the corners until he hit one 2-inches long. It worked for him at the Olympics but overall I don't see that style consistently beating the top-5.

    He is one of my favorite players and one of the best players in the world so I'm certainly not knocking him. It is a very demanding style of play at any level when you have players really pushing you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Some points imo and he would not be having the level of success he has with this style if he wasn't very tall either.
    I don't see how he would be real good to model unless you are very tall.
     
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  40. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Not only tall, but an agressive mindset that allows for a high percentage of unforced errors balanced by a higher percentage of forcing shots.
     
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  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    We don't have to agree, but I think his leverage is important in making this
    style work. I don't think a shorter person is likely to get power as well or
    get the geometry to make that form work. Even for him it is a dicey proposition.
     
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  42. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Sure, anatomically challenged folks just can't serve the same as Dr.Ivo, or hit forehands like DelPo, and make it work.
     
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  43. the cat petter

    the cat petter New User

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    Correct. Not only did he eventually make an error after a few shots, but even when he hit amazingly powerful and accurate shots, Djokovic still returned them so Delpo was risking so much for nothing!
     
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  44. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Always a risk vs reward game....
    DelPo can't run with DJ.
    DJ chooses not to hit against DelPo.
    Therein lies the different strategy.
     
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  45. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Which is why he hits relatively flat.
     
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  46. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    AND relatively harder than almost anyone on tour.
     
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  47. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    not a first option strategy, but not bad for one with limited mobility.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
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  48. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yeah and Del Po won the Basel final beating Federer.

    So much for the BULL on this forum from 3.5-level players and coaches.
     
    #48
  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    We measured Delpo's forehand spin and it's still well over 2000rpm--higher than Sampras and Agassi though less than Fed or Djok. His forehand may be relatively flat in the modern game but it is far from flat.

    There are a lot of ways to win points from the baseline. One is hit screaming forehand lasers through the court against best players in the world. Under at least some circumstances and combinations of opponent and court surface, Del Potro has shown he can do that.
     
    #49
  50. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Isn't it stating the obvious that Del Potro's style generally works for him? He's ranked #8 in the world right now. That's not too bad in the grand scheme of things.

    However, against Djokovic there is a guy who can apparently handle the pace the Del Potro dishes out and stay in a rally long enough that Del Potro's relatively higher risk, potentially higher reward ball falls to the side of risk - i.e. he misses.

    This is seems like basic tennis to me. If you hit hard enough your pace will mess up your opponent. Better opponents can handle more pace, however better players can dish out more pace. Del Potro can apparently bother most players on the tour with his pace - he hits freakin' hard. But against the very top guys he's going to have to hit a lot of balls in to win the point because those guys can absorb a lot of pace without breaking down. Some days he can do it, some days he can't.
     
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