Design the Ultimate Player

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Dec 12, 2008.

  1. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    First Serve - Sampras
    Second Serve - Sampras
    Forehand - Federer
    Backhand Topspin &/or Drive- Agassi/Djokovic (1 hand - Guga)
    Backhand Slice - Rosewall/Federer/Sampras
    Overhead - Sampras
    Forehand Volley - Edberg
    Backhand Volley - Edberg
    Tenacity/Fighting Spirit - Nadal/Hewitt/Chang
    Tactical Brain - Borg/Connors/Federer
    Physical Strength & Endurance -Borg/Nadal
    Return of Serve - Agassi/Nadal

    Sorry for choosing multiple choices in the fields, you know it's tough picking one, even for the ones where I picked just one, I didn't really want to.

    I'm also going to create another characteristic/trait which is 'transition game' which could fall under 'tactical brain' but to me it's something else, more along the lines of seizing the moment and turning defense to offense and creating/making plays and being rewarded,etc
    There should also be a "Clutch Factor" category as well.

    Transition Game: Sampras/Federer
     
    #51
  2. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    Some of you really fail in understanding the principal on who has the better stroke. Especially on the serve. The definition of a good serve would apply to anybody. So if you took a 5’-5” player some of you think that giving him Karlovic’s serve would be more effective than Petros’. That’s completely ridiculous. Petros has the best serve in the history of tennis. It would be effective whether you’re 5’ tall or 7’ tall. Karlovic is an effective server not because of his serve, but because of his size. Does Karlovic have a bad serve? No. Does Goran have a bad serve? Heck no. They both have good solid top notch serves. But in no way shape or form do they come close to Petros serve. To look at stats only accounts for effectiveness of the shot when coupled with the physical attributes of the player, not just the shot itself.
     
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  3. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    First Serve: Sampras
    Second Serve: Edberg
    Topspin Backhand: Laver
    Slice Backhand: Ashe
    Forehand: Federer
    FH Volley: Mac
    BH Volley: Edberg
    Dropshot: Rosewall
    Overhead: Hoad
    Lob: Laver
    Fighting Spirit: Nadal
    Will to win: Connors
    Speed: Borg
    Tactics: Laver
    Return of Serve: Connors
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
    #53
  4. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I'll try and do one of these for the women- avoiding 3+ major winners when possible in singles...

    1st Serve- Schultz-McCarthy
    2nd Serve- Stosur
    Forehand- Sue Barker, Dementieva, maybe Kuznetsova?
    Backhand- Mauresmo
    Overhead- Shriver
    Return- Dementieva/Austin
    Forehand Volley- Shriver, Novotna, Kournikova, Gigi Fernandez
    Backhand Volley- Shriver, Novotna, Gigi Fernandez
    Tactics- Sabatini/Mauresmo/Austin
    Mental-ummmm....welll...here...dunno....I guess Austin?
    Tenacity- I guess maybe Schiavone of 2010/2011, austin,
    Endurance- Schiavone...lady is like the energizer bunny
    Speed- ok I have very little idea here...maybe Sabatini?
    Footwork- Novotna
     
    #54
  5. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    The asterik means I altered or amended your list with some of my ideas, boredon, hope you like the suggestions

    *1st Serve- Schultz-McCarthy,Sukova
    Wade has one too many majors, but I can't resist
    2nd Serve- Stosur
    *Forehand- Sue Barker, Dementieva, maybe Kuznetsova? andrea tomesvari
    *Backhand- Mauresmo, Sabatini Mary Jo Fernandez
    *Overhead- Shriver, Sukova
    Return- Dementieva/Austin
    *Forehand Volley-Shriver,Novotna,Kournikova,Fernandez,Garrison
    *Backhand Volley- Shriver, Novotna, Gigi Fernandez, Rosie Casals
    *Tactics- Sabatini/Mauresmo/Austin, JaegerMary Jo Fernandez
    Mental-ummmm....welll...here...dunno....I guess Austin?
    *Tenacity- I guess maybe Schiavone of 2010/2011, austin, Coetzer
    *Endurance- Schiavone...lady is like the energizer bunny, Coetzer
    )Speed- ok I have very little idea here...maybe Sabatini? Garrison, Turnbull
    Footwork- Novotna
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
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  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    .

    I like your lists guys.


    I'll think about a full list for the women but just for the backhand, how about Catarina Lindqvist? She had a beautiful topspin backhand
     
    #56
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I like your lists guys.

    I'll think about a full list for the women but just for the backhand, how about Catarina Lindqvist also? She had a beautiful topspin backhand.
     
    #57
  8. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Pc1, I only vaguely remember Lindquist, She was'n't before my time, but she was before I knew crap about what I was seeing,LOL. How could we have forgotten Martinez' forehand? I withdraw Andrea temisarvi and replace!
     
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  9. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    BTURNER.

    I like all of your additions. I cannot believe I forgot Sukova for the volleys and overhead categories. She truly was a strong net player for sure. Martinez for the forehand is also a good choice and I am embarassed to have ommited her there, hers was truly a strong weapon as she could do almost anything with that shot. I am also embarrased I forgot Turnbull in the speed category...haha.

    You also made some suggestions I just didn't even think of. Casals and Garrison for instance. I have never seen much footage of either of them and only know what I know based on what I have read...but Casals was obviously a stellar doubles player. Turnbull could probably go into those categories as well come to think. Mary Joe is a good suggstion as well...she was a very good all around player, she was usually outgunned by players a level above her. But if she was around today in her prime she'd be winning majors easily.

    All the additions you made are very appropriate...in retrospect I think I'll take Kuznetsova off the forehand wing. Barker, Martinez and Dementieva are all I think much stronger choices and having her on the list doesn't make as much sense now. I think I'd take Kournikova off the FH Volley list. She was good at net but in seeing your additions there are obviously much better choices then her.
     
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  10. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Casals is just not recognised enough on these boards. She has suffered from Fleming syndrome, whereby your only tennis attribute, becomes being the partner of a great champion. She was very short, quick and agile at net, with a great backword movement for the overhead( she saw plenty of them) and a near perfect backhand volley, just like BJK.. In temperment and style she was alike a female Joahn Kreik. Flashy and talented but unsteady, temperamental, and very funny. Got to two major finals, but who was on the other side of the net in 70/71? Just Margaret Court and King, both in top form. Only Sukova had it worse meeting Evert, Martina, and Graf.

    In doubles she partnered famouusly with king (7 majors), but also Court, Wade, Nastase , and Stan Smith and won majors w/ Tegart and Turnbulll and two w/Stockton. King did not bring all the talent to that duet!
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
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  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    my list of WORST shots among tennis greats

    First Serve- Vilas
    2 ond serve- Agassi
    FH-Edberg and Vitas
    BH-Sampras and ¿Newcombe?
    BH Volley-Ashe
    FH Volley-Connors
    Return-Gerulaitis
    Overhead-Orantes
    Endurance-Becker and Federer
    Speed-Agassi
    Tactics-Roddick
    All courter-Nadal,Djokovic and Murray

    Since Nadal,Federer or Djokovic or Murray seldom volley I cannot rate the worst of them
     
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  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kiki,

    Ashe had one of the best backhand volleys. It was a great shot. His forehand volley wasn't great for the times. It would probably be great nowadays.
     
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  13. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Casals career reminds me a lot of Shrivers who came later. Both were insanely successful doubles players, winning tons of majors and scores of titles outside of them. However in singles neither ever won a major and because of that they get very little respect. I've heard and read about Shriver that she was only as successful as she was because of Martina...which is in part true in the sense Martina brought out the best in her, but I highly doubt Martina would have won as many doubles titles without the presence of Pam...they just clicked as a duo and if Pam wasn't any good they wouldn't have won all they did. A doubles team is only as good as the weaker player...and if Pam was the "weak one" well...they still rocked. Casals was the same, at least from what I read, she had success with everyone, she was a doubles master. But, like Shriver, never got the win in singles because she had to deal with King and Court who were just better, much like Pam had to deal with Martina, Chris, Graf, and for spurts of time Mandlikova and Austin. Neither were bad players, the problem with being a contemporary of several GOAT candidates is that you look small by comparison, but it doesn't mean you stunk. I just never thought of Casals initially...but in thinking about it...its almost embarassing to have forgotten her.

    I have actually thought a little of the current best in doubles...men and women. Do players like the Bryans, Huber, Raymond, Stubbs, Peshcke, Black...and others...have any merit in the volley/overhead categories? I mean the best teams of the past Decade are arguably the Williams, Black/Huber and maybe Raymond/Stosur...where do they stack shot for shot? Honestly...I wouldn't give most of them attention....except maybe Huber and Raymond...
     
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  14. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fed has the weakest endurance ??:confused:

    You have never seen Fed play.
     
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  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    My worst shots for top tennis players
    1st and 2nd serve-Jay Berger. Berger was top ten. Among the really excellent ones, Solomon, Dibbs, Chang.
    FH-Edberg
    BH-Stan Smith-Not bad at times but he missed too many. Newcombe's wasn't that great either.
    BH volley-Yannick Noah
    FH volley-Lendl
    Return-Roddick, maybe Karlovic if you count being number 14 great.
    Overhead-Generally even the worst here are decent. However they said Budge had overhead weakness after he hurt his shoulder so I'll go with Don Budge. Riggs mentioned it wasn't that great before that because he always hit it down the middle.
    Stamina-Sampras because of his illness. However you can't hold it much against him because he probably won a good percentage of five set matches. I think it hurt him at the French where all the extra hitting worn him down.
    Tactics-A lot of players. Too many to count. I'll just write I get sick of players playing the same game all the time and losing all the time to the same players. Arthur Ashe used to lose to Rod Laver all the time but at least he tried to change his tactics.

    Worst female serve-Frankie Durr-The legendary slow serve but she did win the French.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2011
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  16. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Worse then Dementieva's? yowza....then again never actually seen footage of Durr so maybe I can't really say anything.
     
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  17. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Yes I think it was worse. Both first and second serves were bad.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L9Q7THWgdw

    Here's a description of Frankie Durr's serve.
    http://www.insidetennis.com/archive/0505_first_serve.html

    Wackiest Shot Analysis: Sue Mott said that “Francoise Durr’s serve meandered like a concussed bluebottle and sometimes seemed to travel in reverse.”

    But hey, Dementieva and Durr both were able to win.

    Ironically I was researching Francoise Durr and I just realized that today is her birthday!! So her birthday is on Christmas.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
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  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Connors vs Ashe/Orantes had no tactics at all

    And, believe me, Barazutti´s first serve WAS EVEN STRONGER than Dibbs or Solomon´s...
     
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  19. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Yes! In addition to having the ugliest strokes imaginable (with her forefinger always up the handle on every shot), she was probably the most successful, pusher, hacker, lobber, etc. ever in women's tennis.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpjJtv7XaPk&feature=related
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
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  20. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Ya Wow. I had never really seen footage of her until now. I've read about her of course but I concede...her serve is definitely the worst I've seen.
     
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  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It was legendary in how bad it was. lol.

    Incidentally the younger posters always point out that some of us idealized the past players and that may be true to some degree but many of us also realize the weaknesses of the past players also.

    In Frankie Durr's case even Dementieva finishes second. But I do think that Dementieva was a better player overall even when she was serving badly.
     
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  22. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Frankie Durr, pusher or no, had a rather effective little game, based on touch/ feel, good groundstrokes, a reasonable net game, and a sense of tactics. It was all blown to smithereens went Evert showed up
     
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  23. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Either Ivo's First Serve: Ivanisevic or Karlovic
    Kramer and/or Pete with the Second Serve
    Forehando Verdasco. Kidding. Roger.
    Backhand Topspin & /or Drive: Djokovic or Guga Kuerten on clay. Agassi, Edberg or Becker on other surfaces.
    Backhand Slice: I know I am supposed to say Rosewall, but I think Rosewall would say Roger. So, Roger. But I also liked Wojtek Fibak and Guillermo Vilas on the slice BH. And that is a Slice BH compliment.
    Overhead: Yannick Noah or Johnny Mac. Turning unreal gets turn into offensive smashes. I think Rog is in there, too.
    Forehand Volley: McEnroe, Rafter.
    Backhand Volley: Roche, Edberg.
    Tenacity/Fighting Spirit: Jimmy, Pancho Gonzales, Mac, Muster, Rafa
    Tactical Brain: McEnroe and Federer
    Physical Strength & Endurance: Borg, Vilas, Muster and Rafa
    Return of serve: Connors, Agassi and now Djokovic.
    Character: Ashe, Laver, Roger, Guga, Rafter.
    Cool factor: Noah, Vitas Gerulaitis, Ashe, Nastase.
    Footspeed: Nastase, Borg, Djokovic, Rafa, Federer, Chang, Hewitt.
    Entertainment value: Nasty, Leconte, Noah, Becker, Federer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
    #73
  24. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    Excellent post, slice.



    Anyone for Vijay Amritraj ??? He once beat the great Connors. Well, he was 2 sets up and then lost.

    I did say "almost beat" didn't I ?
     
    #74
  25. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Slice, I like your post. It's great that you put Jack Kramer down for second serve since his second serve is regarded as the best ever for many years and I'm sure by many now. Entertainment value and cool factor are great categories. :)
     
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  26. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks guys. I never actually saw Kramer live, but I heard and read the story of him hitting a silver dollar suspended in mid-air with his serve. On the 1st try. With cameras rolling. Live tv!

    Oh, and cool factor and entertainment value, yeah, why not, right?
    Baghdatis, Tsonga, Guga, Rafter, Noah, Newk....way more fans than ranking points. If Jeff Tarango weren't so infamous already I'd mention him.

    Honorable mention: Arazi, Rios, Santoro, Gianluca Pozzi, Irakli Labadze, Alexabdr Volkov, Petr Korda, Derrick Rostagno ought to be able to live on in some capacity in cool, alternative categories.
     
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  27. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Hhaha, what a cool guy. I met him at a tennis thing in Los Angeles (I played in a pro-am, he was at the shootout/party). Totally smooth, classy, wonderful person. As I remember, he was pretty quick for a tall man.
     
    #77
  28. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Martina Hingis clone?

    Hingis had an 80mph first serve, this woman's serve seems to be in the same ball park. Similar playing style too.
     
    #78
  29. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Having seen Durr and Hingis live...uhm, no.
    Hingis was Boris Becker next to Francoise Durr. Boris Becker indoors or on grass.
     
    #79
  30. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    I'm struggling to visualize a player fitting these parameters, I don't think my imagination can handle it without it or the laws of physics breaking down.
     
    #80
  31. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I agree with you.
     
    #81
  32. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    A friend of mine once told me (and I cannot verify this) that they tried to measure Durr's service speed and it didn't register for a speed. He was not joking. Again I've never heard of this outside of him.

    Edit--Was looking around for what my friend said and I found this. While it's not proof it seems that this person read or heard about the same thing. See post 9 in this link.
    http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=6242992
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
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  33. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Haha I know. I am actually one of the "younger posters"...I'm only 24 and to young to have seen many of the past greats play live. But I have done a lot of studying on them to try and get a feel on their games and the evolution of the sport. I think the problem is many of the young posters don't even want to think about the fact that past players may have done something better then their current heroes. No one wants to admit a weakness in their favorite players it seems.
     
    #83
  34. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Having now seen footage of Durr...I gotta agree 100% with this.
     
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  35. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    timnz,

    The ultimate player in my opinion:

    Service Gonzalez
    Forehand Segura
    Backhand Rosewall
    Forehand Volley Sedgman
    Backhand Volley Roche or Rosewall
    Return Rosewall
    Passing Shot Borg
    Drob Shot Santana
    Overhead Hoad
    Half-Volley Segura or Rosewall or Cochet
    Lob Riggs
    Fighting Spirit Gonzalez
    Endurance Borg
    Tactics Segura or Rosewall

    Federer fans: I'm sorry...
     
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  36. Iron Man

    Iron Man Rookie

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    who cares?
     
    #86
  37. Iron Man

    Iron Man Rookie

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    Serve Karlovic
    2nd Serve Sampras
    Forehand 1-Federer 2-Nadal 3- Lendl

    Backhand djokovic
    Slice backhand Federer/ Rosewall
    Forehand Volley mcenroe
    Backhand Volley Edberg
    Return Hewit / Agassi
    Passing Shot Nadal
    Drop Shot Federer
    Overhead Sampras
    Half-Volley Federer
    Lob Murray
    Footwork Federer
    Movement Nadal / Chang
    Fighting Spirit Nadal
    Improvisation Federer

    Endurance Borg
    Tactics Federer
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
    #87
  38. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    My list is only based on players I have seen. I like both Sampras and Nadal but this is how my ultimate player would look like;

    1st serve: Karlovic
    2nd serve: Sampras
    Fh: Federer
    Bh: Agassi
    fh volley: Edberg
    bh volley: Edberg
    Return of serve: Agassi
    Overhead/Smash: Sampras
    Movement: Nadal
    Passing shots: Nadal/Agassi (i should only pick one, but I can't separate the two) :(
    Mental aspect: Chang (yep, we always talk about Pete and Rafa being mentally tough, but I've seen both of them choke several times. I have never seen Chang get tight/choke, never).
    Improvisations: Federer
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2012
    #88
  39. cjj14u

    cjj14u New User

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    Just give Federer Isner's first serve.....
     
    #89
  40. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Federer is already the ultimate player.
     
    #90
  41. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Ultimate Serve and Volleyer

    Serve-Pancho Gonzalez
    Backhand Volley-Tony Roche
    Forehand Volley-Sedgman or Jack Kramer
    Overhead-Yannick Noah

    Second Team
    Serve-Sampras or Jack Kramer
    Backhand Volley-Edberg or Rosewall
    Forehand Volley-John Newcombe
    Overhead-Pete Sampras
     
    #91
  42. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    1st serve-Pancho
    2nd serve-Sampras
    Backhand volley-Edberg
    Forehand volley-Edberg
    Overhead/SlamDunk Air-Sampras
    FH-Fed or Kramer
    BH-Agassi
    Return of Serve-Agassi
    Mental Toughness/Clutchness- Sampras
     
    #92
  43. Zimbo

    Zimbo Semi-Pro

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    Guys I've seen only

    1st Serve Goran
    2nd Serve Sampras
    Forehand Federer
    Backhand Safin
    Slice backhand Edberg
    Forehand Volley Mcenroe
    Backhand Volley Edberg
    Half Volley Mcenroe
    Return 1st serve Hewitt / Connors (Agassi gets aced too much for my liking)
    Return 2nd serve Agassi
    Passing Shot Borg / Wilander / Nadal
    Drop Shot Mcenroe
    Overhead Noah
    Backhand Overhead Noah
    Lob Wilander / Hewitt / Chang
    Footwork Federer / Connors
    Movement Borg
    Fighting Spirit Nadal / Connors / Chang / Hewitt
    Improvisation Federer
    Endurance Borg / Nadal / Lendl
    Tactics Wilander
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
    #93
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    This is the best list posted...and I´ll add something else: put 90% of each single great stroke /untangibles into a man´s body and brain, and you´ll get ...Mr Rodney George Laver.
     
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  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Certainly, not newtards like 95% of TT posters....
     
    #95
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He always choked against Muster....and against Becker....
     
    #96
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    smoledman,

    "Federer is already the ultimate player"... with a few weaknesses such as his defensive backhand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
    #97
  48. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    Thanks for your praise of my list.

    You are right regarding Rod Laver. While he is not named in my list at all he is almost best in many categories making him probably the perfect player without significant weaknesses. If Rosewall would not have had that medium service he maybe could match the Rocket on this field.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
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  49. ktid

    ktid Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    317
    1st serve: Ivansevic
    2nd serve: Sampras
    Fh: Federer
    Bh: Agassi
    Return of serve: Agassi
    Overhead/Smash: Sampras
    Movement: Borg
    Passing shots: Agassi
    Mental aspect: probably Sampras
    Improvisations: Federer
     
    #99
  50. Iron Man

    Iron Man Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    231
    the ultimate player of the pre- open era but he has no chance against my ultimate player :)
     

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