Determining a St. Vincent PS 85

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by gmlasam, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    I'm quite surprise sometimes how people are so gullible. One in particular is purchasing a so-called St. Vincent PS 85 model from someone then only to find out that it was not a St. Vincent. The only determining factor they based it's authenticity is the "but cap".

    Folks, butt caps on the PS 85 can be easily removed and replaced with some fake schemes matching that of what a St. Vincent would have.

    The best way to know for sure if its a St. Vincent is the red Primer underneath the black paint. Look at the pics.

    Do not use buttcap to determine St. Vincent authenticity:
    Mine states KNQ, the Q is almost gone.
    [​IMG]


    This is one sure way to determine St. Vincent authenticity:
    Look for the red primer underneath the black paint.
    [​IMG]
     
    #1
  2. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Labels on the St. Vincents
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    More Primer:
    [​IMG]
     
    #2
  3. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    St. Vincent and my main stick 80's POG mid which weights about 14 oz. ;)
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    Those Are Definitely St. Vincents.....look At The Logos....it Looks Like It Was Stickered There, That Is A Sign Of A St.vincent To....also, The St. Vincents Have A More Shiny Smooth Almost Lacquered Finish.......and Yes Red Primer Is The Best Determinant.
     
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  5. loubapache

    loubapache Professional

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  6. tandayu

    tandayu Professional

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    This particular one on ****, I do not think it is a St. Vincent, unless it is another version that I never aware of.
     
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  7. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    ........what camera did you use for those pictures ?? GREAT 'close up' of the string holes !!
     
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  8. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    I used an Olympus C2100. It's an amazing digicam. Olypmus no longer makes them and they are highly sought after. It has 10x optical zoom. Its really a camera for photography hobbiest.

    Look here, http://cgi.****.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=30003&item=3871960865&rd=1

    Here are my cams: Olympus c2100
    [​IMG]

    Olympus E10 professional Digital SLR camera:
    [​IMG]

    Olympus C4000
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    Oh Man I Hate To Be The Buyer For That................

    That Is Not A St. Vincent.....

    St. Vincents Only End In Q

    That Is A Taiwan....take My Advice Please.
     
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  10. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    You Can Tell That Is A Taiwan From The Inner Throat Writing.......................

    St. Vincents Only Say Pws Information

    This One Says What Wilson String And Grip Model To Use

    Man Im Sorry But I Just Want To Give Everyone A Heads Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    #10
  11. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    thanks for the heads up Young Pete!! This is what I mean. there are so many ppl out that want to rip people off. People buy into this because they do not know what to look for and they don't educate themselves on what to look for.
     
    #11
  12. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    No Problem. Your'e Welcome.
     
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  13. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    .....HEY !!! Thanks for the information on the CAMERA too !!!!!!!!
     
    #13
  14. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actually, this comment is not entirely accurate. Some St. Vincents do not end in Q. Some of the later St. Vincent Models before the factory closed had different stencils on the inside of the throat, which had more information. The racquet pictured by gmsalam (great pictures by the way), is a later version of the St. Vincents, than the first versions (no bumperguard with stickers inside throat, then bumpergaurd with stickers inside throat, then bumperguard with stencil inside throat), etc. The earlier St. Vincents did not have a stencil, they had two stickers. They also had no bumperguards, and no (R) copyright next to the "W" on the buttcap. the copyright came later. Some of the later St. Vincents only have "MIDSIZE" on one side of the throat, rather than what is more typical and more accepted-both sides of the throat. There is also different information as to stringing recommendations. For example, there are versions that recommend you string the racquet between 60-70 lbs, not 50 -60 lbs as pictured by gmsalam. Suttle differences in the grommets, especially by the throat. ETC, ETC, ETC.....As you can see St. Vincent racquets had suttle changes through the years.

    As gmsalam wrote, the best way of knowing is the RED PRIMER. I have seen and owned about 7-8 versions of St. Vincents.
     
    #14
  15. jorel

    jorel Hall of Fame

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    in addition

    just to add ... a chicago also has red primer underneath

    and it is quite possible to add a st vincent butt cap to a chicago (bumperless) to make it look like an early version st vincent without the bumper (ive been burned before)

    the surest way to know it is a st vincen is to look for the red primer and a bumperguard

    then your assured its def a st vincent
     
    #15
  16. tricky nicky

    tricky nicky Banned

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    hi gmlasam,

    nice cameras man,

    regards,

    tricky.
     
    #16
  17. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Thank you, thank you ;)

    This is the camera that got me interested in photography. Nothing compares to these old faithfuls.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    i know all the above drakulie. LET ME ASK YOU THIS....HAVE YOU EVER SEEN OR HAD A ST. VINENCT THAT ENDED IN T???? OR HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A ST. VINCENT AS CLEAR ON THE WRITING AS THIS? IM DEFINITELY LEANING ON THE MODEL IM DESCRIBING AS A TAIWAN ( I OWNED BOTH ST. VINCENTS AND TAIWANS) THE TAIWANS ARE MUCH MORE CLEANER IN WRITING WITH NO TRACES OF BEING STICKERED. ITS LIKE THE WRITING IS MOLDED LIKE THE NEW 6.0'S OF TODAY. I'VE NEVER SEEN A ST. VINCENT THAT TALKS ABOUT STRING AND GRIP RECOMMENDATIONS... (MAYBE YOURE THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS....)I GUESS THE OWNER WHO IS TRYING TO SELL THIS SHOULD GIVE MORE CLOSE UP PICS LIKE THE END OF THE GROMMETS IF IT IS SQUARED OFF OR ROUNDED OFF. THAT IS ALSO A GOOD INDICATION. SO I GUESS YOU CAN SAY MY COMMENTS ARE 99.9999% ACCURATE RIGHT......
     
    #18
  19. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    Great information in this thread. Thanks.
     
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  20. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    More PS St. Vincent Pics:

    As what Young Pete mentioned, the grommet channel shape can determine authenticity of a St. Vincent. A square grommet channel is found on st. vincents.
    [​IMG]

    More Labels:
    [​IMG]
     
    #20
  21. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Young Pete, I hate to break it to you, but again-Your comments are not entirely accurate. Earlier in this thread you stated that St. Vincents only end in Q, and that St. Vincents only have PWS information inside the throat. Both are wrong. Yes, I have seen St. Vincents (with wrapper still on handle) that do not end in Q. I have seen one that ends in "X". Granted, they are rare when they do not end in Q, but they do exist. I have also seen some that do not have any letters on the buttcap.

    Again, St. Vincents went through several suttle changes while being manufactured. I have 4 St. Vincents in front of me right now. 2 recommend stringing at 50-60 lbs, one at 65-70 lbs, and another at 55-65 lbs. I also have one that does not have anything inside the throat (stencil or sticker). One of which has the stencil of the stringing recommendations, but does not have the "PWS" information on the other side.

    Again, the best way of "knowing", if anyone really knows is by the red primer. However, as one earlier post states, even the River Grove models have red primer.

    As far as the one on **** being referenced, I am not sure if it is a Vincent or tawian, or what. Like you said, the seller would have to post more information, and post more pictures.
     
    #21
  22. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    Not quite in the thread, but did Edberg and Courier play with St. Vincents? Guess Mary Pierce didn't, as she came later ...
     
    #22
  23. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Yes courier did in fact play with the St. Vincents, as well as Edberg. I'm not sure about Mary Pierce.
     
    #23
  24. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Here is a closer look comparing a non St. Vincent with a St. Vincent: I dug up some of my racquets from the attic and found a tawian made PS 85.

    Can you tell which one is the St. Vincent?
    [​IMG]

    Closer look at the throats:
    [​IMG]

    Comparing the grommet channel, which one is the St. Vincent?
    [​IMG]
     
    #24
  25. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Here is a closer look at the grommet channel:
    [​IMG]
     
    #25
  26. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    ....sooo...which one IS the St. Vincents ???
     
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  27. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    The one on the right on each comparison pictures.
     
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  28. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    .....that WAS my 'guess', too !! I saw NO 'red' paint though...!!?!?!?!!
     
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  29. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Review the pics I posted earlier where string holes are showing.
     
    #29
  30. Tenny

    Tenny Professional

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    Great thread

    gmlasm, it's very nice to start this kind of thread. Very educating!

    BTW, when I purchase my first PS6.0 95 (I know they began the production in 1994) a couple of years ago, I noted the 3 letter code on the butt cap (mine has a white cap). It was my first serious racquet purchase so I emailed Wilson to ask about the code. Mr. Wilson kindly let me know it was the production date/place information saying it was made in 1997 in china. Then I got another with a black cap. I was told it was made in 1998. I figured due to the St. Vincent thing of 85 model, wilson have had to answer so many inquiries, their response was very prompt :]

    Unless the bad guys who know tennis a little bit exhume the 85s and steal the original white butt cap, you can always ask the code and check with wilson, I believe. $240??? It's a shame.

    BTW, my 3rd 95 has a 'prostaff' log looks like that of St. Vincent 85. I don't think any of 95 was made in St. Vincent but wonder until when wilson used those kind of font (slant, round) "pro staff" on the throat area? Anyone?

    Tenny
     
    #30
  31. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    ....right about the string-holes ! I was just talking about the 'later' pictures you put up.....
     
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  32. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    DRAKULIE,

    REGARDLESS I AM STILL RIGHT THIS IS A TAIWAN. ST. VINCENTS DO NOT HAVE STRING OR GRIP RECOMMENDATIONS. ST. VINCENTS ONLY HAVE EITHER PWS INFORMATION OR NONE AT ALL OR A STICKER THAT SAYS TENSION AT. YOU REALLY GOT A RARE ONE THERE, WITH AN "X" AS A CODE. IM GOING BY STATISTICS HERE. MOST ST. VINCENTS HAVE Q WE ALL KNOW THAT. AGAIN MOST OF THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING ME I ALREADY KNOW PLEASE I AM GETTING NAUSEATED I ALREADY KNOW ALL THAT. NEXT TIME TELL US SOMETHING "WE DON'T KNOW".
     
    #32
  33. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    Also Another Givaway That Its A Taiwan Is If You See The Grommet Channels Actually Rounded Off Like A U.

    I Can Vouch For This.
     
    #33
  34. tandayu

    tandayu Professional

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    Determining a St Vincent PS 85

    The earliest Taiwan version (post St. Vincent) has same mold as St. Vincent, which means also same grommet channel. The only way to distinguish it is no red primer and glossy finish. The one on **** in reference, has the glossy look.

    Again, the lister suppose to give more detail explanation. However, it is safe to say that this particular one is most likely not a St. Vincent, rather than bid on it because it might be a St. Vincent.

    I stand to be corrected if the above statement is incorrect.
     
    #34
  35. Young Pete

    Young Pete Professional

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    i had a taiwan version and i am 100% sure the grommet channels are "U" shaped which means rounded off just like the 6.0's of today.
     
    #35
  36. loubapache

    loubapache Professional

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    #36
  37. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Young Pete, I did give you lots of information you obviously didn't know. It's OK. At one time I did not know it either-I was taught, or learned. If you are getting "nauseated", I suggest you take some Pepto Bismol. Don't get so defensive.

    Again, without seeing more pictures, I cannot say with certainty whether the racquet being referenced is or is not a Vincent. And in regards to the Taiwan versions, many of the earlier ones had the square grommet channels. You obviously did not know that either.
     
    #37
  38. tennisnoob

    tennisnoob Rookie

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    Just want to correct the above info, the so called "Taiwan make" you have here is actually made in China. Only China made PS85 had the swing index 6.0 SI printed after the word pro staff. I have a "Late Taiwan" model which says just pro staff but almost identical to the China makes. I'm trying to post some pics of my own which shows 4 versions of pro staff, will come back again with the link for the photos.
     
    #38
  39. ffrpg

    ffrpg Professional

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    #39
  40. tandayu

    tandayu Professional

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    Determinings a St. Vincent PS 85

    How about the hologram on side beam?
     
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  41. tennisnoob

    tennisnoob Rookie

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    #41
  42. loubapache

    loubapache Professional

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    I e-mailed the auction owner and (s)he said the three letters on the butt cap are:

    KNO
     
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  43. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    tennisnoob, thanks for your contribution to the post (great pictures). Interestingly enoough, the earlier version of the two Vincents you have has a more rounded grommet channel than the later one, including the Taiwan/China models.

    Like I have been saying, the St. Vincents went through lots of suttle changes. As did the taiwan versions.

    Thanks for the pictures.
     
    #43
  44. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    loubapache, sometimes the "Q" looks like an "O" because it has been faded.
     
    #44
  45. tennisnoob

    tennisnoob Rookie

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    It crossed my mind when i first read this topic that it only made sense for the factory to have multiple molds for the racquet that they produce during the time. Some would have gone gone thru a lot of wear and tear over the period and new molds were made thus probably explains the diffrence in the grommets channels between the 4 racquets.
     
    #45
  46. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Exactly! This has been my point. St. Vincents are not an exact science. For example; Ending in "Q", or Suare Grommet channel, or midsize on both sides, or bumpergaurd vs. no bumperguard, or stickered inside throat vs. stencil, etc. etc. etc. There are so many variations people have to be careful as to what they list as a St. Vincent, or when they want to buy one-they need to know what to look for.

    Even the earlier Taiwan versions were made from the same molds as the Vincents, and have even been found to have the red primer (I have never seen one). However, I believe if I am correct (someone correct me if I am wrong) the Taiwan had a different "make-up" of the graphite/kevlar composition.

    Again, thanks for your post. I have learned a few new things about these racquets that we all love so much.

    By the way, how do you like the Taiwan and China Models? What are your comparisons between those and the Vincents?
     
    #46
  47. Gaines Hillix

    Gaines Hillix Hall of Fame

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    Here's a link to a brief history of the PS 6.0 line of frames.

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/60/ProstaffOrigins.html

    It's true that the initial runs of frames made in Taiwan didn't have the same frame layup as the orignianl St. Vincents and later Taiwan versions. This is what Wilson had to say,

    "the uni-directional graphite ProStaffs were a stopgap measure. Within 4 months of the St. Vincent factory closing, we went through 12 - 15 iterations of braided construction. Shortly thereafter, we were up and running with braided construction ProStaffs from Taiwan. We feel we have the closest layup to the old St. Vincent frames and most players who've played with both agree. There will always be a few, like Pete Sampras, who prefer a particular racquet for whatever reasons."
     
    #47
  48. tennisnoob

    tennisnoob Rookie

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    Well the late Taiwan model does play slight better than the China model, more solid in my opinion and I've noticed my Late Taiwan model is a tad more head heavy than the China made. But then again, me and a few buddies have done some comparisons, the China made ones are rather inconsistent in their "QC", some would feel more headlight and some would feel more solid in terms of playability than the others for example.

    Just another piece of interesting info I would like to share with you all, those of you who has the Late Taiwan makes and all China makes, you will notice this printing in the throat area of the racquet:"Braided Construction Exclusively Manufactured by Chiao Ta". This "Chiao Ta" is actually a company originated from Taiwan that was given the exclusive rights to produce Pro Staff 85 & 95 after Wilson closed down the factory in St' Vincent and subsequently the factory moved to China due to rising costs in Taiwan.
     
    #48
  49. tandayu

    tandayu Professional

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    Is there any variation on the grommets of S. Vincent versiont, especially the 3 pieces at 6 o'clock position of the racket head? Are those the flat one or the concave shape?
     
    #49
  50. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    tandayu, again I have seen different variations of the grommets. I have seen both the flatter ones and the more oval shaped ones at the throat.
     
    #50

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