Did Federer ever used a HPS 6.0

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by sunflowerhx, Jun 18, 2007.

  1. sunflowerhx

    sunflowerhx Rookie

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    #1
  2. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    No he did not. In the early part of 2002, he used his old PS 6.0 85 but with a HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob on it. Then later in 2002, he switched to the new PS Tour 90 but still with the same HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob on it. So he never used a real HPS 6.0 95 Tour.
     
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  3. Buckeye10s

    Buckeye10s Banned

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    Where did you get one? I've been looking for one for awhile!
     
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  4. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    I've still got a couple of those. They're pretty nice racquets to hit with. I like the leather grips that come stock.
     
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  5. sunflowerhx

    sunflowerhx Rookie

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  6. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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  7. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    The headsize in the picture looks bigger than an 85 though.
     
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  8. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    If you're referring to the pic of Federer at Wimbledon 2002, yes, he had already switched to the PS Tour 90 by then (of course with the same red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob on it as was on his PS 6.0 85). Just look closely at the throat, top corners of the "V".
     
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  9. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    I've got a HPS 6.0 and they are actually really nice!
    Well worth adding to your collection if you can find one.
     
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  10. sunflowerhx

    sunflowerhx Rookie

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    So has any Pro ever used one?

    Also can anyone suggest a good setup for this frame.
    Currently using Alu Power which I find very lifeless, although I benefit from the extra pop.
     
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  11. khd287

    khd287 New User

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    so is fed currently using a Pro staff tour 90 ?? ..
     
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  12. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Federer has been photographed using a STOCK Pro Staff Tour 90 racket with the longer pallet and the dense string pattern located between the PWS. A few weeks later, he was photographed using the Pro Staff Tour 90, but it had a more open string pattern between the PWS, and his pallet was shorter. People argue that it's just a "paintjob" of the PS 85, though some believe it's the Pro Staff Tour 90 but in the upgraded mold. Some even in hindsight say he's been using the k90 all along. :rolleyes: He has never been photographed using a STOCK n90.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2007
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  13. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    No, I believe he's using a K90 and has been for 5 years.
     
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  14. khd287

    khd287 New User

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    O, alright thanks for the info
     
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  15. jorel

    jorel Hall of Fame

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    i dont think he ever used the 85... i think it was always a 95... TW sold the 95 a few years back and told us that they would try and get the 85 but it never happened. i dont think they ever made the 85 HPS. I could be wrong, but even in pics of Fed with the HPS ...it looks like the 95 and not the 85
     
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  16. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Huh? There was never such a racquet as the HPS 6.0 85 Tour. There was only the HPS 6.0 95 Tour, which Federer never used. The only 85 was a paintjob of the PS 6.0 85 with the HPS 6.0 95 Tour red paintjob on it, which is what Federer used in early 2002. You just haven't seen any pics of him using it, but that's what he used. I've seen these pics and there are people here that have that paintjobbed racquet. Only in mid-2002 did he switch to the PS Tour 90 with the same red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob on it. Those are the pics that you've seen, but it's a 90 and not a 95.
     
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  17. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    I honestly believe Federer has been using a PS 6.0 90 since 2002, because how would Wilson come out with "k-factor" before "ncode" even came out?


     
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  18. MTXR

    MTXR Professional

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    BP is referencing that the current "Kfactor 90" was built back in the day already. They just named it as we all know it now as the Kfactor 90. He had it during the "Ncode 90" They just decided to release his frame now and he is referencing it like so.
     
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  19. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Why not? Who's to say Wilson didn't invent "K-Factor" before they invented "nCode"? I don't think Federer ever used a real nCode90 anyway. I also don't think "K-Factor" is real either. It's just a name Wilson made up for the racquet.

    The PS 6.0 90 does not exist. If it did, it would have the same exact throat as the PS 6.0 85 and 95. There is no current racquet in the Wilson line-up that has this throat. And if it did exist, why wouldn't Wilson have just released the PS 6.0 90 as the new K90 instead of the actual retail K90 we have now? It would have saved them tens of millions of dollars in product development costs as they would have already had the PS 6.0 90 for many years.
     
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  20. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    What a joke. Should I even bother to reply? :rolleyes:

    We all know the PS 6.0 original 85 has much more touch/ball feel than the k90. So let me ask you this, would you rather use a retail k90 or a PS 85 composite put into the Tour 90 mold? Which would Roger prefer?
     
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  21. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    We do? Who's "we"? :confused:
    I don't know about Roger. Go ask Roger what he would prefer. A PS 6.0 composite in the Tour 90 mold will not play like a PS 6.0 due to the differences in the throat. And how do you know the K90 is not the PS 6.0 composite in the Tour 90 mold? Do you have any proof that it isn't?

    And you still haven't answered my question. If the PS 6.0 90 exists (since you claim that's what Federer gets), why in the world wouldn't Wilson just release it to the public as the new K90? Why would they waste millions of dollars to develop another K90 racquet when they've already had one (PS 6.0 90) that they can easily release to the public and give it any name they want to?

    Stop thinking that a PS 6.0 90 will make you play any better than the K90 does. The reason you don't play as well as Federer does with the K90 is because - hey, you're NOT Federer. It's NOT the racquet!

    BTW, here's a free tip for you......if you don't want me to reply....then DON'T ASK ME!!! :roll:
     
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  22. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    "We" would be the general consensus.

    And if that isn't good enough for you, according to TW, the PS85 got a rating of "90" for feel [​IMG]

    while the k90 received an "84" [​IMG]

    About Federer's racket, nobody seems to know for sure. Let's be realistic here, why would Federer prefer the feel of a retail k90 over the PS85 composite? To begin with, didn't he grow up using the ps85? Why would he prefer a racket that felt more "muted" in comparison?
     
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  23. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    You've already answered that question.

    Just because they don't make it for the general public doesn't mean the racket doesn't exist for a professional player on the tour. Take your word for it.

    I don't see why you're trying to disclaim what I'm trying to say here when you have in fact supported my POV. I have even quoted you!
     
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  24. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Should I even bother to write out an explanation when you've already answered it for me?

     
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  25. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    First of all, did you notice the date on that PS 6.0 85 review? Yup, August 1999. As we all know, the numerical ratings of racquets in TW's reviews are not consistent from quarter to quarter, let alone year to year, and this one is 8 years ago! Did you also notice the names of who did the playtests? With the exception of Granville, ALL the other playtesters were DIFFERENT people with their own opinions on feel, what they like or dislike, their past experiences with similar racquets, and how high or low of a number they want to assign to the "feel" category. It's basically a made-up number, not a scientifically measured number, so it can be pretty random depending on how important feel is to you. I know, as I've done many playtests for TW and have assigned tons of my own numbers to different categories.

    BTW, a "true PS 6.0 90" would be an exact cross between the PS 6.0 85 and the PS 6.0 95. Well, did you see the TW ratings for feel for the PS 6.0 95 in the exact same review as for the 85?

    Here's the rating for the PS 6.0 95 - "Touch/feel" got 79.

    [​IMG]

    So if the PS 6.0 90 is right in between the PS 6.0 85 and the PS 6.0 95, as it should be, then the midpoint of the two ratings is (90+79)/2 = 84.5, which is the same rating that the K90 got!

    Thus, if you want to go by the touch/feel ratings given by TW, the PS 6.0 90 would have a rating of 84, which is the same rating as for the K90. Thus, the K90 is indeed the PS 6.0 90 according to your numerical analysis of the touch/feel based on TW's ratings.

    Lastly, how are only 5 TW playtesters the "general consensus" out of the millions of people that have played with a PS 6.0 85 and/or K90?
     
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  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Huh? That was years before Wilson released the K90 to the public. They did remove the HyperCarbon and used the PS Tour 90 mold - it's called the K90! The K90 is the PS 6.0 90 with the Tour 90 throat, as far as I'm concerned.
     
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  27. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Did I NOT say the "PS85 composite" in the "Tour 90 mold?" I am talking about the PS85, and NOT the PS95 + the PS85, so your point is totally off base. Nice try at trying to confuse the public.

    Also, are you trying to tell me that the people chosen to write the reviews on TW are totally useless since only 5 people were chosen? Did you want a bigger sample size to confirm what they've discovered?
     
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  28. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for clearing things up as to what your opinions are; now I can see where your feedback originates.
     
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  29. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    The fact remains that:

     
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  30. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Fact?

    The fact is, in my opinion, is that Wilson first gave Federer a K90 prototype with the PS Tour 90 paintjob to try. He didn't like it "as is" and asked Wilson for a more open string pattern in the center and a shorter handle pallet. So they drilled the frames with a more open pattern (4 crosses instead of 5 at the PWS) and glued shorter handle pallets onto the frames. I believe this is the racquet Federer has been using for the past 4 years. Now Wilson has released this frame to the public and gave it the name "K-Factor KSix-One Tour 90".

    There is NO special "Federer mold" as far as I'm concerned.
     
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  31. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    The PS 6.0 90 is exactly IN BETWEEN a PS 6.0 85 and a PS 6.0 95 BY DEFINITION. All the specs should be split right down the middle, and that's EXACTLY what I requested Wilson to make 3 years ago:
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=57904&postcount=1

    A true PS 6.0 90 is NOT a PS 6.0 85 with a larger head. It is a cross between the PS 6.0 85 and the PS 6.0 95. I don't even like the PS 6.0 85.
    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/playtests/BREAKP02.html

    I like the PS 6.0 95 and that's why I used it for years. I DO NOT want a PS 6.0 85 with a larger head. I WANT a PS 6.0 95 with a SMALLER head or something that's exactly between the PS 6.0 85 and 95.
    I'm saying that a sample size of 5 people out of 5 million people does not make a "general consensus" as you claimed.

    If you asked 5 people if they want immigration reform and they say "no", does that mean that the "general consensus" in the nation is that people don't want immigration reform? :roll:
     
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  32. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Isn't the PS95 20mm wide, while the PS85 is 17mm wide? Do they not also have different swingweights, static weights, and flex? :arrow: Just because 90 square inches falls in between the two rackets you've mention, doesn't mean it will play anything like those two rackets combined.

    :idea: Does the n90 play like the k90? Does the n90 play anything like the PST90? Does the k90 play anything like the PST90? You are speaking as though you would know how the PS 6.0 90 will feel even though it hasn't been made for the public.

    Whatever racket it is that you prefer, has nothing to do with a racket you've never played with, nor does it take away or give any clues as to how the "PS 6.0 90" will feel/play, because again, you have no clue as to how it will actually perform! (Please don't make arguments/claims that have no purpose, except to further your one-sided point of view. More on that below.)

    As for your far-fetched analogy of the "general consensus" of racket reviews vs. "immigration reform," it's as absurd as your counterclaims of how the "PS 6.0 90" will actually play/feel/perform.

    If anyone would know about that racket, I'm sure the best person to ask would be Roger Federer himself. Again, would Federer rather use a retail k90 or a composite of the ProStaff 6.0 85 original in the Tour 90 mold? :confused:

    The argument that Federer has been using a retail k90 since 2002 is still debatable (which brings us to where we are in this thread) and I don't think anyone should be told otherwise! You and I still don't know what racket he actually uses, but we are all open to make educated guesses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2007
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  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    As far as I know, I was the first to coin the term "PS 6.0 90". And if you read my post to Wilson from July 5th 2004, I was asking for exactly a cross in between the PS 6.0 85 and 95. Since the PS 6.0 90 does not actually exist, it can be defined as anything I want to since I came up with the idea. I don't recall anyone talking about a "PS 6.0 90" before I started to.

    The PS 6.0 90 is NOT a PS 6.0 85 with a 90 sq. in. head. If that's what you want then call it just that - "a PS 6.0 85 with a 90 sq. in. head", but please DON'T call it a "PS 6.0 90". Doing so would totally ignore the existance of the PS 6.0 95. By definition, the PS 6.0 90 is a compromise between the PS 6.0 85 and PS 6.0 95. If you called up Wilson 6 years ago and said you don't like the PS 6.0 85 because the head is too small, they would tell you to go buy a PS 60 95 because it'd be the closest thing. Now they will probably tell you to buy the K90.

    So, yes, not only does the headsize of the PS 6.0 90 fall in between the PS 6.0 85 and 95, ALL THE SPECS fall in between the 85 and 95, e.g., static weight, swingweight, balance, beam width, etc. that's what makes it a "true PS 6.0 90". Did you read my whole thread? This is what started the talk of making a "PS 6.0 90" in the first place: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=8110

    So when I came up with the idea of the "PS 6.0 90" it was NOT to make a PS 6.0 85 with a 90 head but a middle ground between the 85 and the 95.

    I think I have a much better idea of what a PS 6.0 90 will play like than you do since I've used BOTH the PS 6.0 85 and 95, while you have ONLY USED the 85. I have also used BOTH the K90 and Asian K90 as well as BOTH the nCode 90 and Asian nCode 90. You have NOT experienced a lighter 90.

    And why wouldn't Federer want to play with a retail K90? How do you know he wants to have the same exact feel of the PS 6.0 85? The K90 comes pretty darn close anyway. Pros do switch racquets. Nalbandian switched from a Prince to a Yonex, Ljubicic switched from a Babolat to a Head, the Bryan brothers are switching from a Wilson HPS 5.0 to a Prince with Speedports, etc. I'd say these switches are much more drastic than Federer going from the PS 6.0 85 to the K90.

    As far as the "general consensus", for every person you show me that thinks the K90 doesn't feel anything like the PS 6.0 85, I can show you at least one person that thinks the K90 feels just like or very close to the PS 6.0 85. So how does what you think make for a "general consensus"? :confused:
    So, yes, you need more than 5 people out of 5 million people to make for a "general consensus", whether that's the K90, immigration reform, the next American Idol, hybrid cars, the future of baseball, global warming, whatever.....
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2007
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  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    BTW, Wilson did do a lot of the things that I requested with the K90.

    They took out the HyperCarbon (which is why it feels flexier and has more feel than the nCode 90).

    They changed the weight distribution to that of the PS 6.0 from that of the nCode 90 (which is why it swings easier and is more maneuverable than the nCode 90).

    They increased the beam width to 18mm.

    They reduced the swingweight from the nCode 90 and PS 6.0 85 (the PS 6.0 is 329, the K90 feels like 326 to me (and other knowledgable posters like CC seem to agree), while the nCode 90 feels like 336 to me (reverse of TW's measurements)).

    They reduced the static weight from the PS 6.0 85's 12.6 oz. to the K90's 12.5 oz.

    So the K90 is very close to the PS 6.0 90 that I requested. However, I wanted a slighter lighter racquet (12.3 oz.) and a slightly lighter swingweight (320), as you can see from my requested specs in that linked thread above from 7/5/04.

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCWILSON-K61T90.html

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCWILSON-WN61T.html

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCWILSON-60.html

    Now if Wilson could only make a "PS 6.0 90" to my EXACT specs, I'd be even happier. :grin:
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2007
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  35. yourmom08

    yourmom08 Rookie

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  36. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    The general consensus huh? I guess you have access to everyone else's opinions.

    Well I consider myself pretty general and I do not agree with your opinion. That's 2 to 1 against you now, so it would seem that the general consensus is that you're wrong.
     
    #36
  37. Larry Baldridge

    Larry Baldridge New User

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    I've got 4 HPS 6.0 Tour 95's - mint condition (matched set). It is amazing how the specs from racquet to racquet are so close! The set up I liked with them was just a little lead @ 3 & 9 --strung w/ Team Gut @ 65# (m's & x's). The control and accuracy of this racquet is tremendous. -- And the classic pro staff "thwap" is truly music!
     
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  38. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, that's nice to know that you believe the k90 has more ball feel than the Pro Staff Original 6.0 85. :roll:
     
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  39. jakshemash

    jakshemash Rookie

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    I think that according to all those in the know stringer steve, Art Art, Ron yu (federer's stringer) federer uses a k90. Stringer steve found out of the man in charge of the wilson pro room and so would know what the players would use, and Ron strings federer's rackets so of course he would know.

    p.s. the guy from wilson was not just trying to sell the k90 as he mentioned the paintjobs of other wilson touring pros
     
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  40. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    So are you trying to tell me that Federer prefers to use the retail k90 with the older Wilson Buttcap? He's def. using a paintjob of the k90, but the racket underneath has been the same since 2002. If I were the number one in the world, I would ask for the ps85 composite put into the tour 90 mold. ;)
     
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  41. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I don't understand what the butt cap has anything to do with anything. The butt cap is a piece of plastic that's stapled onto the end of the handle and is fully interchangable. It's no more indication of the racquet than the strings in the racquet are. Ashley Harkleroad uses a Babolat Pure Drive with a Wilson butt cap. Does that mean her racquet is really a Wilson K95 with a Pure Drive paintjob? Of course not!

    Most likely Federer got his batch of K90 painted racquets from Wilson before the K90 was released to the public with the new butt cap in January so all they had in the factory at that time was the old butt cap from the nCode 90, so that's what they put on his racquets. I can't even feel any difference between the new and the old butt caps. But if Federer can, perhaps he specially requested that his K90's have the old butt caps put on. It's really not a big deal.
     
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  42. jakshemash

    jakshemash Rookie

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    it might also be a way of differenciating roger's rackets from the rackets sold to the public.
     
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  43. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Don't worry, they will never get mixed up. His racquets are sent directly to the Wilson Pro Room where they are customized to his specs before they are shipped on directly to Roger, thus his racquets never get mixed in with the retail racquets.
     
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  44. psp2

    psp2 Banned

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    ........pure, unsubstantiated speculation, again from BP. When Wilson decided to mass release the K90 to the WORLD in early January 2007, don't you think they would have made tens of thousands of new-style buttcaps months in advance?
     
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  45. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Obviously, you weren't paying attention. Federer got his racquets with the K90 paintjob back in November 2006 or earlier. There were pics of him with the K90 paintjob that were taken not long after the US Open. Even some board members here already demoed the K90 as early as November. Our own Craig Clark was able to get a retail K90 in early December and posted this pic of it:

    [​IMG]

    You notice something about the butt cap on the K90 (on top)? It's the old butt cap. The same one that Federer is still using.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1098170&postcount=51

    You're not feeling very smart anymore, are you? Get your facts straight before making unfounded accusations. It seems YOU are the one that's speculating here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2007
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  46. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    BTW, Wilson DID NOT release the K90 to the WORLD in early January 2007. They shipped a few to dealers in the US at the end of Jan.-early Feb. in very limited quantities. It was not officially released to the US market until the very end of Feb. when Wilson had their official K-Factor launch event in Las Vegas. The K90 was not even sold at all in Europe for several more months (I think until June). In fact, only very recently has it been introduced in some European countries.

    And, no, it is possible the new butt caps were not ready until right before the retail K90 was released for public sale, perhaps due to an unforseen delay by their butt cap supplier or problems in getting them exactly right. BTW, have you ever worked in either engineering or manufacturing?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2007
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  47. psp2

    psp2 Banned

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    WOW, you're full of knowledge!! BTW, how long do you think it would take to make several thousands of buttcaps at a factory?
     
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  48. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    OK, so it's obvious that you haven't worked in either engineering nor manufacturing before.

    It's not a matter of how quickly they can make them. It's a matter of getting the mold correct first before they can make even one of them the way they want it made (i.e., to Wilson's exact specs). Once the correct mold has been created, they can make thousands of of butt caps very quickly. The new butt cap is a completely different design from the old butt caps so it requires a completely newly designed mold. And who knows how many delays Wilson's butt cap vendor may have had in getting the mold and/or manufacturing process correct to make the new style butt caps in high volumes that meet both Wilson's quality standards and design specs. The vendor may have made tens of thousands of them and then found out they were made incorrectly (e.g., not to Wilson's exact specs) so had to scrap them and start over. Stuff like this happens all the time in the manufacturing industry.

    In any case, why are you placing so much importance on Federer's butt cap anyway? Why does it even matter? It's not really an indication of anything as I said above.
     
    #48
  49. AgassiFan12

    AgassiFan12 New User

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    98
    No, actually that is a HPS 6.0 paintjob. The HPS 6.1 "W" at 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock is silver where as on the HPS 6.0 it is yellow...like the picture shows.
     
    #49
  50. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,468
    No that is not correct.

    The HPS 6.1 also had the yellow "W" at 2 and 10 o'clock: http://web.archive.org/web/20030413205050/www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCWILSON-H61.html

    [​IMG]

    The older ones may have been sliver but they changed it to yellow around the time the HPS 6.0 came out so that they would have the same paintjob. The only difference in paintjobs was that the HPS 6.1 paint was glossy while the HPS 6.0 paint was matte.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20030401233514/www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCWILSON-TOUR95.html

    [​IMG]

    Can you tell which is which? From just looking at them, the obvious differences are (besides the glossy vs. matte paint) the head shapes, the box vs. oval beams, the throats (the HPS 6.1 has the angled cutouts at the two top corners of the "V"), and the leather vs. synthetic grips.

    In case you haven't figured it out yet, the top one is the HPS 6.1 and the bottom one is the HPS 6.0.
     
    #50

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