Did Pancho Gonzales win the Cleveland tournament in 1964?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    In many places it has Gonzales beating Andrés Gimeno for the Cleveland Pepsi Cola World Pro, in the final.

    However, in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales–Laver_rivalry page
    it has:

    Laver beating Gonzales in the quarter finals of the Cleveland tournament.

    How could Gonzales win the tournament if he lost to Laver 6–2, 10–8 in the quarter finals?
     
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  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Pancho was the only player in history who won major titles while being beaten in the former rounds
    That alone makes him GOAT:p
     
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  3. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Timnz,

    It's a different tournament. The tournament that Gonzales won in Cleveland in 1964, where he beat Gimeno 6-2, 15-13 in the final, was on grass in May 1964.

    Laver's win over Gonzales in the quarter finals of a Cleveland tournament was indoors.
     
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  4. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Squashed schedule

    Thanks for your comments...I didn't notice the surface difference in those wikipedia articles.

    It does seem strange though that there were two tournaments in Cleveland within a few days of each other. They had to be that close because the Pepsi Cola World Pro (where Pancho beat Gimeno in the final) was Pancho's first event that year, then he lost to Laver in Maryland 1 week later, he won white plains a week after that - all in a period of 2 weeks! So somehow the indoor cleveland event was squashed in there. Looks like 4 tournaments in a 2 week period.

    An interesting thing is that both of the cleveland events were both called 'World Pro'.

    The other thing, is that in this list of events, in italian, for May 1964..it only lists 1 Cleveland event.

    http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornei_di_tennis_maschili_nel_1964

    Is there another solution to this?

    Is it possible that it was in fact one cleveland tournament? Perhaps the loss Pancho had to Laver in Cleveland was in the round robin phase that was common in Pro events in those days instead of the quarter finals?

    Was the pepsi cola world pro really on grass? When the US pro was at cleveland it was played indoor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
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  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    timnz, I believe there was only one Cleveland tournament that year. I also doubt that it was on grass. No rr.
     
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  6. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    So what was the tournament that Gonzales won on grass in May 1964?
     
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  7. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    If there was no round robin and there was only 1 tournament, how was it that Gonzales lost to Laver in the quarter finals but then went on to win the title?
     
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  8. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    I'd be interested in seeing the evidence that there was a Cleveland tournament on grass. The Cleveland World Pro when it was combined with the US Pro was indoor (in the 1950's). The tournament that laver beat Gonzales in Cleveland in 1964 was indoor. The only place I am seeing that it was on grass was Wikipedia. No newspaper articles etc. I just can't imagine that there was four pro tournaments in a two week period and especially in that period 2 tournaments in Cleveland which both had the title 'World Pro'. If you have some evidence, I'd be very keen to see it. In full respect - thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
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  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Mustard, According McCauley there would be only a tiny gap between Cleveland and Washington: 17th and 18th May.
     
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    So that 6-2, 15-13 tournament final win that Gonzales had over Gimeno was on grass in Washington D.C. rather than Cleveland?
     
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  11. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    timnz, I only know that Gonzalez lost to Laver in the QF of Washington.
     
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  12. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Gonzales definitely won an event called the Pepsi Cola World Pro at Cleveland over Gimeno in the final. It was well publicised that this was his first tournament back.

    By Washington - I think you mean the College Park Pro in College Park, Maryland - this is only a short distance outside of Washington DC. I have no idea what surface it was played on. Laver beat Gonzales at that tournament - see above reference I have posted. I have no idea of round or score.

    My issue is - since it appears that Laver beat Gonzales twice before the White plains US Pro indoor in late May 1994 and the Pepsi Cola World Pro at Cleveland was Gonzales first tournament back - also in May 1964 - it doesn't leave any time for another Cleveland tournament.

    So is it possibly a mistake that Laver beat Gonzales at the Cleveland indoor tournament?
     
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  13. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Is the following a possible scenerio that holds everything together

    First - Gonzales won Cleveland Pepsi Cola World Pro - didn't mean Laver at all. Surface might be indoor, might be grass.

    Second - Gonzales lost to Laver at the College Park Pro (near Washington) 6–2, 10–8 in the quarter finals (I took that score from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales–Laver_rivalry - what was against Cleveland). Perhaps the wikipedia article is in error when it says the quarter final victory of Laver was at Cleveland when really it was a College Park.
     
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  14. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The designation "World Pro" was a hint that Jack March was promoter.
    He seems to have inflated his tournament titles.
     
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  15. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Mystery solved

    The mystery has been solved. Laver and Gonzales didn't meet in any Cleveland tournament in 1964. The 6-2 10-8 loss to Laver happened at College Park, Maryland (near Washington, DC) the week before White Plains (US Pro Indoors). Hence Gonzales didn't lose to anybody in the quarters of Cleveland.

    Outstanding Mysteries

    1/- what evidence is there that Cleveland World Pro was a grass court event in 1964?

    2/.- was the College Park Pro played indoors in 1964?

    3/ - I notice there still are tennis courts at College Park. I wonder if those who play there have any idea that that was the site of the very first meeting of two of the very greatest players of all time?
     
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  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Cleveland and grass?

    Other than Newport and Forest Hills, no grass in the USA

    At least since Merion dissapeared and Boston changed to clay in the early 70´s.
     
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  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    timnz, I guess so. At Washington/Maryland Laver beat Gonzalez in the QFs 6-2, 10-8.
     
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  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, I believe Cleveland was played indoors (as every year before).
     
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