Did Rafa's consistency make Novak's season even more special?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Hitman, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Without having to go too much into what Novak accomplished in 2011, especially when he was been written off prematurely as a one slam wonder etc. Did Nadal's own high consistency make Djokovic's run that much more special, than if Nadal wasn't there competing in those finals?

    Novak beat Rafael six times, on three surfaces, all finals, took four of his titles, including W and USO, without a single loss. Did beating the man, who was the undisputed world number one at the start of the year, who himself had his most consistent year in getting to finals elevate Novak's season even more than if he hadn't played him?

    Would Novak's season have looked as impressive if Nadal was injured, absent, or taken out early in those big wins? Sure, you can only play who is in front of you, and he had to go through the world number one. Thoughts?
     
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  2. aldeayeah

    aldeayeah Hall of Fame

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    Of course it did, although it became a bit tragicomic as the year went on.

    The two Slam victories against Fed did a lot too.

    The only way the new alpha male can solidify his place, in the eyes of many, is to beat the old alpha males...
     
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  3. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    That certainly helped. He has beaten Roger in the last three hard court slams.
     
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  4. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Yes absolutely. The consistency is the best indicator of a player still playing his best. This means Djoker had to take out a completely healthy Nadal playing to his best level. This is very impressive indeed. And I'm not really sure you can even say Djoker is a matchup problem for Nadal since Nadal was certainly beating Djoker quite well before 2011. In fact I never even heard anyone say Djoker was a matchup problem for Nadal before 2011. I think it's just another excuse Nadal fans adopted just because it's the case with Fedal.
     
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  5. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Do you think Nadal has what it takes to bounce back? And if so, how would he tactically go about changing the winds that are against him? I am sure he is still in his prime.
     
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  6. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Yes Nadal can definitely bounce back, but it all really depends on Djoker's level and presence as proven by copious data in 2011. Whenever Djoker was around Nadal lost. If Djoker was not around Nadal won, see Barcelona and FO. Data never lie.
     
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  7. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I agree, the data does not lie, and Nadal is still very much in his prime. I guess it depends on the chasm that exist between him and Novak, but, I also think the chasm that exists between him and the players behind him. I do think his worst scenario would be losing the number two rank to Roger for various reasons.

    I am really looking forward to seeing how the top guns come out. Novak and Rafa are normally at the their best earlier in the year, but if Roger catches fire, and displaces Rafa, things could get interesting.

    I certainly wouldn't rule any of them out in the new season.
     
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  8. MariaRafael

    MariaRafael Banned

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    Djokovic was very consistent at the year end: retire, retire, lose, lose.
     
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  9. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Just like Nadal. Except Nadal was lose lose lose lose
     
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  10. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    NO, NO, and Yes...

    Nadal's, relatively lower form, this year certainly did not elevate Nole's results for the season. However, to those unwilling to be discerning and observant, it may seem that defeating Nadal six straight times and never losing to him bolsters Nole's season. Of course most people now admit that Nadal did not play as well in 2011 as he did in 2010 (Nadal has even said so himself).

    Even watching the re-run of this year’s Aussie Open final, its clear that Nole played better during the 2010 USO final which he lost to Nadal. As a matter of fact; Nole’s performance of USO 2010 was better than Nole of 2011 Aussie or 2011 USO (comparing hardcourt to hardcourt slams). Maybe its because the USO was faster last year, IDK…

    Either way it matters little. Nole had a great year, on par with Nadal's 2010, 2008 + Australian 2009; or Federer’s 2005 - 2007 seasons.
     
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  11. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    its easy to feel you were not playing as well when you didnt win as many titles.

    take away Djoker, and Nadal's 2011 would have been a career best as well as a legendary season.

    Nadal played as good if not better then he was in 2010, Djoker was just better.
     
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  12. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Quoted for truth. This is actually what most sane people realize who understand that truth depends on data. People who like to feel the truth depending on their mood generally believe the converse.
     
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  13. Sentinel

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    IIRC, Rafa himself said he had no answer. He and Toni had enough time to think of strategies to counter Nole but (it seems) they could not come up with any. Its doubtful that they'll be able to come up with one now, but one can't tell.

    It may come down more to whether Nole can keep up (or return to) his 2011 form. If he can't, Nadal could dominate 2012.
     
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  14. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    So in your twisted mind; the current year's data completely wipes out all preceding years data??? How ridiculous!

    So if Nadal plays great next year after a relatively disappointing 2011 (as he did in 2010 after a relatively low 2009) and starts to own Nole again it will only be because of Nole's decreased level of play :confused:

    However, you and your delusional cohorts absolutely claim that the reverse could not have been true for Nole this year (i.e. Nole defeating Nadal at least in part because Nadal was playing worse). I guess it must be nice to live in your world - ignorance is bliss!

    Of course, we rational individuals will wait and see what actually happens next year. If Nadal improves to the level that he was in 2010 and still loses to Nole - then that will be the case and corresponding credit will be given or vice versa. I suggest you wait and see...
     
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  15. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    In your little mind, if Nadal doesn't win then his level is low. If Nadal wins, his level is back to where it was. Yes, we all get it you know, i.e. get how stupid you are.
     
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  16. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Would say that he had no answer for Nole THIS year? He certainly seemed to have the answer pre-2011. Why would you think those same strategies that worked so well for him before, giving a him a very solid 16-7 H2H led to him being completely shut out in 2011 with six straight high profile losses?

    Do you think that Nole has improved to the point that Rafa's tried and tested tactics against him in the past, are not able to hurt this Novak? Surely you can't forget how to beat someone if you have beaten them 16 times before, unless that player has improved to the point that your tactics are now outdated, and you have been left behind.
     
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  17. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    How can you say that? This is a complete hypothetical! And for you newly minted Nole lovers, when really you all are Nadal haters, claim to only base your assessments on data but then you produce your opinion on complete conjecture... What hypocrisy!!!
     
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  18. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Wrong again! I thought Nadal's level has been low since fairly early in the year, at least as compared to 2010. And i said so, way before we knew Nole would have the excellent year he did...

    And i thought Nadal was not playing well at the French, even though he Won it! And i said so...
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
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  19. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Or, Nadal was just not playing as well as before. You purposely avoiding this possible reason is telling. You, and others, are clearly insecure and defensive as a result!
     
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  20. Totai

    Totai Professional

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    Nadal's level wasn't low. He made the finals of 3 slams, and the finals of a lot of masters tournaments. The only difference between Nadal of 2010 and Nadal of 2011 is that 2010 Nadal had a nasty serve for 2 weeks.

    If Nadal was able to take either Miami or IW from Djokovic, then this year would have been completely different. Djok managed to get into Nadal's head.
     
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  21. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Insecure about what? Go watch the Miami final this year, that was about as intense a match you can get, and that was type of match that Rafa would always win against Nole. When he outlasted him mentally, and physically, that was when the tied changed. Rafa didn't lie down for Nole, Nole had to fight to take it from Rafa. Rafa's level was low in that? Yeah, right....

    Regarding insecurity, you are saying that Novak played better in the USO '10 final, despite the performance he put on at AO 11, especially against Roger? I won't even go to the USO 11, because in that match he showed immense courage to withstand Rafa's warrior like fight back.

    USO '10 Novak was happy to be there, having scrapped past Roger, after having a terrible year. USO '11, he stepped onto court to win, against a player who was not going to lie down for him.
     
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  22. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I didn't say low, but lower than 2010...
     
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  23. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Nadal's level in 2011 was much higher than 2010. Look who he had to beat in slam finals in 2010. LOL. Compare that to 2011
     
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  24. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    The only thing hypothetical is your assumption of any knowledge of tennis.

    FACT: Nadal made what was it....7 finals in a row

    Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid, FO

    I believe he won 3 of those finals( monte carlo, barcelona, FO)- incidentally in all three wins he faced no Djoker.

    He made the finals of Wimbledon, USO and Tokyo.

    Thus he made 10 finals across all surfaces in one year, a career best I think.

    He made the finals of 3 slams, for the second time
    He made back to back finals in a HC tourny an unprecedented I believe what, 3 times? ( IW or was it Miami, USO, Tokyo)

    In other words he was consistent this year in a way he had never been in his career before. He was *better* than he was in 2010.

    The problem was, instead of Federer or the non-big 4 opponents he faced in finals last year(Berdych, Soderling etc), he had to play a physically and mentally improved Djoker.


    Thus if not for Djoker, and let me say this slowly, if not for Djoker Rafa would have had the best year of his career, thus by implication in 2011 his play was as good if not better than 2010
     
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  25. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Nadal is playing better than ever as displayed clearly by the number of finals he made.
     
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  26. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    For idiots thinking it is hypothetical that Nadal would have won all those finals with no Djoker around please tell me who else was close to the level of these two that could have taken out Nadal?!?
     
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  27. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    ya know....Id have given Tsonga a fair shot at wimbledon, seeing as he had already beaten Nadal at Queens.

    And old or not, Id give Fed a fighting chance at USO. But, stamina for sure would have been an issue for Fed so, eh.


    Id have given rafa maybe one of those titles but not neccesarily both.

    All the other finals tho? probably give them all to Rafa.
     
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  28. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    No matter how slowly you repeat fluff, it is still that -- fluff!

    Again, your entire premise is based on nothing but conjecture. There is nothing wrong with conjecture, but do not try and bolster, yours and others, ridiculous 'data' theme with a hypothetical! You're a complete hypocrite if you choose to do so...
     
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  29. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    You are divorced from reality.

    Where facts are fluff and rantings and wishful thinking are set in stone.

    Spot on trolling by you sir, well done.
     
    #29
  30. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Most people? You mean Nadal fans?

    Watching the re-run of 2010 USO final it is clear that Novak played nowhere near as good as he did at both AO and USO this year(especially AO).

    You mean the performance in which he was on the brink of losing to his pigeon Troicki? You aren't serious are you?

    Oh it's definitely better (not just on par) than any year Nadal had so far and I'd personally put it over Fed's 2004, 2005 and 2007.

    BTW. 2008 + Australin 2009 does not constitute for a year/season.
     
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  31. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    even with his total collapse after USO??
     
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  32. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, even with that. It comes down to a personal opinion, obviously it's debatable but I'd take Novak's 2011, the main reason being the winning streak (going half of the year undefeated) and a big title on every surface(AO+IW+Miami on slow HC, Rome and Madrid on clay, Wimbledon on grass, Canada and USO on medium-fast HC). It's a very balanced performance across all surfaces in a given year which is something I value a lot, even if today's homogenization makes it easier to adapt than before.
     
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  33. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    I dunno, I'll take someone dominating from start to finish, but the streak was impressive.
     
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  34. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Horrible reasoning here on your part...

    How you can say 'what would have happened without Nole in 2011' is fact is completely devoid of logic!
     
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  35. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    Dont you have xmas presents to wrap, or tinker toys to play with?

    run along now, let the grown ups continue the discussion.
     
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  36. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Perhaps you should try and comprehend before responding, clearly this is too much to ask of the 'data' posse!

    First; I was comparing finals performances only, not the entire tournaments!

    Second; winning 3 out of 4 consecutive slams is winning 3 out of 4 consecutive slams regardless of when it takes place on the calendar. So Nadals 2008 season + 09 Aussie is certainly comparable...
     
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  37. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    I'd have to agree with this. The terrible performance at the WTF by Djoker sealed the deal. For me djokers 2011 is behind Fec 2006 2004 but about on par with 2007 when all things are considered
     
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  38. celoft

    celoft Guest

    Claydal has never defended a title off clay. You all know that? As soon as he won Wimbledon and USO in 2010, it was a foregone conclusion he wouldn't defend any of those 2 slams in 2011 since he has never been able to defend off clay. Not even a mm title. :lol:

    Federer has defended a title on clay, btw.

    Federer >>>>>> Nadal
     
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  39. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Your attempt at humor is about as effective as your attempt at logic...
     
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  40. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Nadal has won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

    Thanks...
     
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  41. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I very rarely use the word "Data" but whatever.

    Then you should say 2010 USO Finals performance.

    I don't give special value to 3 consecutive slams, it's still merely winning 3 out of 4 slams in a given year to me.

    Again Nadal's 2008+ 09 AO is not a season so you can't compare it to other season, you can compare it to other combinations such as say Fed's 2006 + 2009 FO or something.

    Now Nadal's 2008 and 2010 alone can be compared to Novak's 2011 and personally I rate Novak's 2011 above both of them.
     
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  42. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Oh I didn't realize there was no Wimbledon played in 2009
     
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  43. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    In DRII-Land which is just south of Fantasia, there wasnt one.
     
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  44. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    The point is: Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons in which he competed.

    Now that is a fact. I'm surprised you 'data' hounds don't understand this...
     
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  45. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    Nadal coming off such a great year and continuing to make finals in 2011 had everything in his favor.

    He was confident and also had the huge mental advantage over Djokovic.
    To turn this around not only mentally and with great play is a tremendous achievement beyond just winning.

    I can't think off hand of anyone who has made this kind of change against a confident #1.

    It was one of the most dramatic turn arounds in the history of tennis.
     
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  46. All-rounder

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    As many have stated, Nadal would have had his best season ever in 2011 had it not have been for Djokovic. Just think, Nadal would have won IW and Miami then swept the clay season and on top probably in Wimbledon and US open.

    Compare that to Nadal of 2010 where he didn't even make a final till Monte Carlo in which he was in title drought for a year.
     
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  47. All-rounder

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    Consecutive?? Federer won Wimbledon in 2009 what are you on buddy?
     
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  48. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    That is a fact. Nadal won 2 consecutive Wimbledons that he chose to compete in. 08 and 10 were title wins for Rafa.

    Another fact is, Nadal's first Wimbledon title defense was 09, and he withdrew. Failed to defend the title. Nadal's second attempt at defending Wimbledon was 11, and he lost in the final. Failed to defend the title. So Nadal has actually not defended the Wimbledon title.

    Both the above are facts.
     
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  49. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    The fact is 2 consecutive W in which he competed in is not the same as 2 consecutive W. Can't you comprehend that???????
     
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  50. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    I guess that means Federer won 6 consecutive Wimbledons, since 2003-2007, 2009. In 2008 he had mono.
     
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