Dimitrov Mold: Solutions for Wilson on Multiple Issues

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by PaulC, May 14, 2013.

  1. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    The Dimitrov Mold (or for this matter: any True 93 sqi, 16X19, 12oz, 65+ strung RDC, sub-20mm beam mold) will be the solution for Wilson on multiple issues:

    1. It will protect Wilson from yet another potential discrimination lawsuit against Wilson if they're forced to offer Asian version of Tour 90 to the Asian market again -- Asian markets are already demanding it -- whereas it'll become a discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen in U.S. as if the current "paint-job" lawsuit is not already enough for Wilson.

    -- Wilson will now need ONLY one model for both Asian and the rest of world to satisfy a similar demand without multiple models.

    2. If Dimitrov makes it big enough or consistently in top 5, the 93 mold will become a *more marketable model* to 4.5+ users worldwide given that it's not yet another tiny-tinny 90 sqi heavy mosquito swatter that's over 12.5 oz which 90% of mortal humans can't use it for more than half an hour without hurting themselves one way or the other by role-playing Fedex.

    -- and BTW, people do KNOWS it's a 93 by now, another lawsuit is waiting to happen if Wilson INSIST to market that he's using the Pro Staff 95 while he insists to use the 93 no matter what.

    3. Even if Federer stays for another 5 years, it's unlikely that he'll be #1 or 2 consistently if at all ...

    -- Meaning: Wilson now has MORE leverage to convince Fedex to at least use the 93 paint-job and market it for them, regardless of whether he stick with the 90 mold or move up to the 93.

    -- Meaning: Wilson can now elect to ELIMINATE the 12.5oz Tour 90 altogether if the demand on the 12oz 93 mold has been proven to be able to replace those on the 90, AND Fedex agrees to play along.

    4. There will be always a demand for a Mid-size frame with OPEN string pattern, any *persistent* mid-size racket user will tell the manufacturers that 95s are already too big AND/OR too thick for them, 93 (not the 89.5 posers) - 94 (like the Donnay ones) with a 19-20mm beam is as far as they will go. For example, many of them wish the Blade tour 93s has a more open pattern for more spin potential etc etc etc.

    (I am almost getting tired of hearing this again and again and again when I was doing part-time stringing job in various pro shops back then)

    Just my 2 cents
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  2. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Quite how you look at this situation and can come up with the discrimination angle is mind-boggling, not to mention quite laughable if you're actually being serious.
     
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  3. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    Once they actually market a pro-stock frame with costs raging from $400-$600 I think I am going to go after wilson with a class action discrimination lawsuit based on economic status because of the high price.
     
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  4. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Hey! Wasn't the "Paint-job" lawsuit laughable in the first place?

    If Wilson still INSIST to NOT sell the Asian version in US, YET the U.S. version is available in Asia. Any law student who have taken 101 level law classes can file the lawsuit easily...

    It's those who are so uninformed of the situation that is REALLY laughable.

    ...Oh well, there're many like you who may not even aware of the Asian version situation in the first place.
     
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  5. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Why discontinue the Tour 90 12oz+ spec? I love that frame.

    For a brand as big as Wilson having different molds for different market is perfectly fine. It actually helps in stopping grey market rackets etc.
     
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  6. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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  7. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    I have no problem with the 12oz+ model, as long as the 12oz lighter mold is available in U.S.

    Just curious: have you ever hit with the asian version tour 90 and hate it? I have yet to meet even one such person. May be you'll like it afterall.

    FYI, grey market for the asian frames actually happened on the *Bay flooding with fakes or QC-rejects before Wilson stopped them.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
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  8. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    The more threads the merrier :)... this thread is from a Product Management point of views.

    (Your thread is more about whether people will want one if it's available)
     
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  9. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    The U.S. version is available in Asia like the Asian version is available in the U.S. - it's all grey market or retailers or customers buying them from places overseas. Retailers in Asia are not supposed to be officially selling the U.S. version.
     
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  10. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    At least US online retailers dare NOT to sell the Asian version *openly*, whereas, Asian online retailers have no problems *openly* sell U.S. versions there.

    Availability is ultimately Wilson's responsibility one way or the other, but it becomes a dilemma for Wilson.
     
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  11. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    I'm not denying for one second that some sort of sneaky marketing efforts may have gone on. What I'm confused about is how discrimination came to be part of the topic.

    It is irrelevant, as is the relationship between the frames and the "Asian" version(s) of frames being sold. Companies routinely make special versions of products to cater to different markets/regions/countries etc.
     
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  12. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    so there are no mids with open string patterns?
     
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  13. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    I think many folks here like you may only associate "discrimination" with racial or sexual discriminations etc, but you may not know *consumers* in the U.S. is also protected against discrimination from *unconscionable business practices*

    All right, let me explain this issue a little in case you're not familiar with it:

    1. Wilson sells the "Asian" verson of the Tour 90s that is at 12.oz (vs 12.6 oz of the U.S. version) strictly to Asian markets, AND *explicitly forbidden* the U.S. retailers from being able to carry and openly selling them in U.S.

    2. U.S. consumers and retailers attempted to negotiate with Wilson to bring these rackets to U.S. but were denied.

    3. However, due to local laws/practices in Asian countries, Wilson is NOT able stop the Asian retailers from selling the U.S. versions (at least not successfully). Both U.S. and Asian versions are freely available to Asian retailers and consumers

    4. Discrimination Class Action(s) if happen:

    a. U.S. Consumers against Wilson Sports (from not being able to purchase the asian versions freely like the asian consumers -- who can purchase both)

    b. U.S. Retailers against Wilson Sports (from not being able to carry and sell the asian versions freely like the asian retailers -- who can carry and sell both)

    A step even further could be an anti-trust or anti-competition lawsuits.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  14. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Sure there are a few, but if you don't like 89-90s and want strictly *93-94s*, AND want stiffer ones at 65+ RDC, really there aren't many...

    (And as we all know Head Prestige Mid and the alikes are really 89.5s)

    Say... Prince Graphite and Diablo; Yonex RDIS 100 mid 93.

    Diablo and the Yonex has been discontinued. Current Prince Graphite is no longer the same racket as the 4-stripe ones... so Ooops, there is really none.

    (Although many folks will sworn by the Volkl PB 10 mid and urge people to try it out, but at least it's not my cup of tea)
     
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  15. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    The dimitrov frame I had was pretty flexible. Around 61 if I recall. Head heavy. Plush frame. It would not sell well if they released one similar to his. It's not that easy to use
     
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  16. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    That's not how I associated the term. I considered the wider meaning and it still bears no relevance to this in my opinion.

    I am.

    Please demonstrate how this is discrimination. They make different products for different markets and make no secret of it. In the same way certain Nike colourways, certain models of cars, certain airfare prices are available to some markets but not others, this is a dead end avenue in which to try to make a legal point.

    Notwithstanding, please show me your evidence US retailers are forbidden from selling the Asian version of frames. Wilson merely doesn't supply them to the US market - that is not the same thing. But since you're off on your high horse listing circumstances for a class action you couldn't possibly be so lacking in IQ as to not recognise the obvious difference.

    Because retailers are bound by supply agreements globally. The Asian retailers can only sell Wilson product if they agree to respect the way Wilson segments their global market. If they don't like it they shouldn't stock Wilson products - as simple as that.

    Tennis Warehouse don't ship Wilson balls to Australia either but you don't see people suing Wilson because of it, nor the Australian Wilson agent who is able to get away with murder selling the balls at 4-5 times the price as in the US because of the arrangement.

    That's because the normal (US) versions of frames are widely available in Asia - supplied by Wilson.

    Wilson are under no obligation morally or legally to supply all models of any frame to all markets - let alone the US. Neither is Mercedes or Nike for their respective products.

    Your understanding of how consumer law works seems to be lacking. I'm not even American and I don't believe for a second US law would work in the manner you describe. It makes no sense. Consumer rights to access to every international variant of a product is a non-existent right. There is no right to it than there would be to demand every item on the McDonald's menu from around the world be available in the US.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  17. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    All the difference is in the grip. The AK90 is less HL. Everything is the same and I could not say it is that easier to use. If you want lighter SW the BLXPS90 is there.

    There may be tons of fakes out there but the AK90 is a legit stick. If you know your channels you will get a legit one. BTW, same thing in Asia (other than mainland China), if you know where to look locally or online, you can get the US spec K90 legit back then. I have only hit with both K90s and the US BLXPS90. Since I am not in the market for a new 90 stick yet I did not bother to check if the BLXPS90 in Hong Kong is the same spec or not. But IIRC I read they are the same.

    Personally it makes little sense to further lighten up the tour 90 in the future. It is a marketing misconception for the old timers who were still thinking Asians need a lighter stick coz they can't handle the weight. That's just out of touch, man. If you play with a tour 90 you will need to learn how to use it. This stick would not benefit from going light. Wilson makes the 95 and 100 because they are for people who likes to play with the same Fed pj but cannot play with a 90.
     
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  18. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    That is not true. The authorized Wilson dealer in Hong Kong I bought my Asian K90's from was unable to obtain the U.S. version of the K90 from Wilson in Asia even though he had customers that wanted to buy it. He was desperate to get them so he eventually ended up having to order them from TW here in the U.S. so he could resell them to his customers in Asia. His customers in Asia were unable to get them anywhere else in Asia.

    Wilson doesn't want to supply the U.S. version in Asia for the same reason they don't want to supply the Asian version in the U.S. (nor anywhere else outside of Asia). They only want ONE version of the racquet in each market to avoid confusion and too many SKUs. You can't even legitimately buy the Asian versions from Wilson dealers in Australia.
     
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  19. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Not exactly. The AK90 is a little bit more flexible than the US K90 (Probably due to less graphite in the frame to make it lighter). You can also feel that it is lighter in the hoop, so it is not just a difference in the handles. In fact, despite what's stated in the specs, the Asian and U.S. versions feel like they have the same balance to me. The AK90 is just lighter overall.
     
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  20. Dgpsx7

    Dgpsx7 Professional

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    If wilson eliminates the 90s I will never buy a wilson frame again even if I am not using 90s at that time. The only wilson frames I own are 90's except for the KPS88 which is in the same class.

    Although I would be very interested in a 93 box beam I would prefer the beam to be 19mm or less..
     
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  21. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    First, let me applaud your solid arguments and admit that I am no legal expert, many of my points are just stretching in the SAME spirit of the "paintjob" lawsuit, which by itself is laughable.

    -- But it HAPPENED anyway, right?

    (there are always some rich folks who won't mind to spend a few cheap bucks to mess with folks like Wilson... And even Donald Trump was suing Bill Maher for libel -- and do you think his case is any stronger than mine???

    His intent was simply to burn Maher's money with his.)

    But I am just curious on why are you so keen on defending Wilson and drift so far away from the original discussion? My OP was to make a business case that a 93 mold can avoid all these unnecessary troubles that are bothering them right now.

    Then again, I am happy to answer your questions below:

    Different pricing for different markets that you mentioned is also known as "price discrimination" in Law and Economics which by itself is NOT illegal due to necessary cost considerations in different markets.

    But to *deny* the request of a product demand altogether for no concionable business reasons -- if you make it available elsewhere -- this, my friend, constitute discrimination at least in California by case precedent already:

    A high-end hotel/extended stay chain provided customized extended-stay housing solutions to several Northern California cities. When an wealthy investor requested to joint the franchise and provide the same services in several Southern California cities but was denied by the chain, he sued and won the judgement for discrimination.

    -- and of course you may think that this is nonsense and why the hotel chain didn't pursue to overturn the ruling? Legal cost considerations of course. Settling it was cheaper at the time.

    No problem: I MYSELF, can be a witness, back then the pro shop that I worked part-time inquired Wilson about the possiblity of importing the Asian frames from our own source in Asia and sell it in the shop -- The answer from wilson rep is: NO can't do, and with a stern warning of the consequences if we do so, almost a threat -- but then of course Wilson can blame it all on the rep for mis-representation of the company.

    BTW, an advice for you my friend, statements of personal insults may lead to banning of your posting rights here... which unfortunately already happened to a few posters here who were discussing issues with me, so be very careful when expressing your emotions.

    At least the Wilson balls are AVAILABLE in Australia, unlike the Asian frames, so Wilson is off the hook on this.

    Great example! However, for sake of discussion, if local demands for Asian menu items becomes so great that a formal petition (with millions of signatures) for the asian menu actually happened, and McDonald actually refused to provide it...

    A different kind of discrimination lawsuit can be brewing, but based on racial or cultural discriminations, though still not a particularly strong one -- as opinionated by my lunch buddy who works with ACLU right now, who wonders: what the hec are you so busy typing during lunch?? :)

    Peace
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  22. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Thanks for the info. I thought it was stiffer, given Fedex's Tour 90 was 66.

    Gees... need to add a qualifier: this frame need to be 65+ RDC strung. :)
     
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  23. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    You may think the PJ lawsuit is laughable, but I am relatively sure Wilson doesn't see it that way.

    The discrimination claim? Now, that's laughable.
     
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  24. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    I don't disagree, my original point was that all these (laughable or not) troubles were avoidable by more careful product management approaches.
     
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  25. Bhagi Katbamna

    Bhagi Katbamna Hall of Fame

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    You know, the problem with most of our games isn't our racket.
     
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  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Quoted for truth! :)
     
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  27. TennisD

    TennisD Semi-Pro

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    Yeah, because the few people (myself included) still holding on to their midsize frames love nothing more than a stiff racquet, which a 65+ RDC would be. Try again.
    So Wilson is going to can all of their current marketing, and roll out a fourth entry into an already bloated product line that will literally sit, just two avoid one lawsuit that isn't going anywhere (nor should it), and another that's just flat out not going to happen? Yeah...no..

    It costs them literally nothing to produce two slightly different versions of the same mold, and they've clearly found that it works for them. Sports manufacturers having slightly tweaked local SKUs is nothing new, even in tennis. I get that you're angry that the big, bad racquet company is denying you access to something, but you'll get over it.

    So you're saying that hero-worship with an extra 3 square inches, more stiffness, and ever so slightly less weight, will somehow be easier on the body of someone trying to play with a racquet that's out of their skill class than hero-worship with the current Wilson halo racquet? No. If you're a 4.5, neither of these racquets are going to do you much good. Next.

    No, they don't. People on this forum know, sure, and they care entirely too much. The average consumer doesn't know, and if you told them, they really wouldn't be that bothered. It's literally only a big deal to the type of player that frequents this forum.

    I'd love to absolutely destroy this point, but instead I'll just sit back and ask you to explain exactly how Wilson has ANY sort of leverage of Federer. Go for it. I'll wait.

    That's a lot of ifs, ands, buts, and maybes for...zero net increase in market share? Yeah. I thought so.

    Sadly, the demand for mid-size frames really is dying, and diluting the mid-size frame market with something that's not really a proper mid-size frame isn't going to help. This was really entertaining, though. We should do it again sometime.
     
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  28. TennisD

    TennisD Semi-Pro

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    The post you quoted should receive an award. At least someone has it figured out!
     
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  29. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    It is true. I have seen and bought normal versions of Wilson frames in Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia and Japan. The shop you went to is either lying or his story about people not being able to buy frames elsewhere in Asia is fabricated.

    They may not be everywhere in Asia - I never said they were - but they are widely available in Asia.

    And it's obvious why you can't legitimately buy the Asian version of the frames in Australia. Australia is not part of Asia.
    The SKU thing I can get for sure... but I'm sure Wilson knows the needs and demands of the vast, vast majority of their regional markets than a couple of disparate examples.

    You might have the whole thing backwards anyway - Wilson may not want to supply Asia with its own variant of the frames - but consumer preferences there mean they have to meet the market. It's called marketing.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  30. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    If Wilson decide there is not enough demand or it is impractical to produce on a commercial scale this frame then they are not obliged to. Simple.

    These troubles you mention - they aren't really trouble for Wilson any more than their annual coffee bill is. There literally could be as few as 50 people who know these 93 frames exists and only 10 or less who want to be able to buy them. The internet just facilitates them meeting each other and misleading themselves into thinking the demand is bigger than it actually is.

    It is not unconscionable. They have valid, provable, commercial reasons for not supplying all variants of every frame to every market.
    Yes, utter nonsense. I think anyone can distinguish the difference between imported products and a hotel within the same state.

    Nice for you. Wilson reps are a known source of top level legal advice. Going by what we see on the boards they also claim annually that Federer is changing to a 95sq in frame too or that he is using the actual off the shelf current retail model.

    The only consequences Wilson could possibly threaten a retailer with is refusing to supply them in the future. In most countries parallel importing of (legitimate) products is legal (marketing them is another story - copyright issues etc).

    Um, thanks I guess :lol: You may not realise it now but I was doing you a favour. The failure to grasp such simple concept yet try to make a detailed one at the same time warranted some mocking. Moderators here are fine with sort of mocking historically.

    Not all versions and the point, in-case I didn't make it obvious, was about DISCRIMINATION - the topic you brought up. Wilson supplies US retailers under the condition they don't export products. So the Australian market is discriminated against by Wilson's local agent who then charges 4-5 times more for the same balls. My point was: where are all the lawsuits if discrimination is such a bad thing? *tumbleweeds*

    McDonald's would treat such a completely implausible amount of signatures as good marketing advice on which products they could offer in the US but they are under no moral or legal obligation whatsoever to offer any product they don't want to. Period.

    This whole discussion is a great example of the increasing American attitude to approach every situation with your gun already half-cocked. Most of the legal approaches mentioned are irrelevant and would result in nothing happening. What might work is an organised effort to approach Wilson and see if a key retailer, like TW, could stock special variants of frames which they produce for overseas markets. TW already stock the odd semi-exclusive products such as the Wilson Prostaff 85 re-issue so their relationship with Wilson would appear to be better than most. Try it, it may work.
     
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  31. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    well... dimitrov is wilson's guy for however long his contract is. right now, he's using teh federer paint job. most people don't realise it's a 93".

    if he makes it big and wins a slam, or becomes a celeb proper, they might make him a new paintjob and release that to the masses. whether or not it will be pro-spec is another issue. they might end up giving him the blade paint job for all we know to push the existing 93" they already have.

    unless another company signs up grigor, or there is another top player who is marketable and emerges playing with a mid sized stick from another company we're not going to see stick companies spend money pushing a product they can't sell to millions of people.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  32. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    If I'm a Wilson exec I'm not super convinced by your sales pitch. Not your fault but babyFeds recent performance in Rome. He's not ready to move merch just yet.

    I think a better idea would be to sell a Federer "Tru Spec" racquet along side the dumbed down version. Better chance of making $$$$
     
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  33. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    It depends on who and where's the judge that interprets "unconscionability" is, in the U.S.

    In more *liberal* state courts in U.S., Wilson will likely need to establish the reasons that by providing the Asian frames in U.S., it would cause them undue-hardship for their business; but in the more *libertarian* ones, the judges may sound just like you.

    (where you from again, Australia? Dunno if the term *liberterian* which I would describe your arguments means the same thing in Australia.)

    It's the NATURE of the case that counts, those more liberal state court judges will ask why it is so unbearable for the manufacterer to offer the requested product/service there, and then determine whether the "damage" on the plantiff is substantiated, so it doesn't really matter whether it's an import racket or a hotel that was refused offering for no good business reasons (hm hm... of course, "good business reason" means different things in different courts in U.S.).

    EXACTLY!! That's exactly the whole point I even brought up the topic of "discrimination" in the first place, as ridiculous as it sounds, there ARE lawyers who can made it pass a preliminary hearing in any given court that don't have a liberterian judge.

    Not that long ago, folks here talked about the Wilson's paintjobs are "mis-representation lawsuits waiting to happen", some people on this board laughed at them just like you did on the possibilities of discrimination cases.

    Guess what now? Our good ol' almighty American lawyers managed to push their way pass preliminary hearings.

    BTW, let's not bringing anything with the keyword "Guns" here, but just to make a point to you that even both Australia and U.S. are common law countires, the interpretation of basic civil rights can be VERY different.

    I got enough crazy legal pals here supplying me all the legal info that they guarantee can be used anywhere in California and win, but the other legal pals from Texas are saying these same things are all bull craps, sounds just like you.

    Even within our NOT-SO-United-States, the interpretation of law can be so different. Honestly, my problems with Brits and Aussies whenever talking about legal issues are that they always assume there is ONE single set of univerversal legal interpretations of some basic legal concepts everywhere, and we folks EVERYWHERE in U.S. will think the same way too.

    Well, on a higher level, maybe...

    But on a practical level, it can differ so dramatically from states to states, sometimes from cities to cities. I've seen enough cases to tell you this. So may be my "confusions of these really basic concepts" are really just another alternative interpretations under our specific political-economy situation that happened to differ from yours? (leaning heavily on the liberal side of course)

    Again. Not disagreeing, but once again our good ol' American lawyers can always figure out a way to make McDonalds look bad enough to compromise... if that actually happens AND if it's profitable enough for the lawyers.

    Actually per replied by TW folks years ago, they tried but no go back then for some unspecific reasons, that's why many people on this board have beef with Wilson. :(
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2013
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  34. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Breakpoint on this board has evangelized this idea for years. :)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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  35. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Sadly, this may be the case.
     
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  36. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

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    Seems like you're pretty addicted to the "point destroying" game here. Any arguments can be countered point by point endlessly, forever, including mine and yours, if we are immortal and are too bored to do anything else, but then it's not contributing to anything...

    So I guess your suggestion for Wilson is: let's not change anything?

    Absolutely fine. If so, that's your opinion then.

    But from what I heard, (of course from those you-know-how-reliable-their-info-is-Wilson-reps) the Wilson execs are more interested to know:

    1. What to do with the rapidly declining sales of the 12.5oz Tour 90 WORLWIDE and the fading hero-worship effect on Fed? Should it be replaced with something else the same way when the 85 was replaced (only limited offering of 85 is available now)?

    (Or simply NOT carrying a Mid frame altogether?)

    2. If they still need one, would a 16X19 Blade Tour 93 kind of frame be able to inherit your mentioned "old-timer" crowd and simplify the production cycle?

    -- Anybody who have been in charge of an actual product life cycle will tell you that it is not exactly as "walk-in-the park" as you may think to support either a dying product or an unproven new product, so they have to be careful here.

    3. If so, would a slightly bigger 93 racket with a rising star endorsement i.e. Dimitrov be able to warrant and cover a broader mid-size racket user-base, who are at least able to hit with it with more ease, compared with Tour 90 (12.5 oz version)?

    All these are more or less decision points for the Wilson folks based on their marketing research data, if their answers are all yes, then they will greenlight the project. If their answers are negative, they won't.

    I am just using the Dimirov mold as an "already-cooked" example for what they can do if they want something more handy, just like Breakpoint did.

    Regarding your question on how is it a leverage for Wilson against Fed to use the new 93 if his results slide further in the next few years...

    Maybe "leverage" is too strong a word for this. And true that Fed may be holding on to the Tour 90 no matter what...

    But towards the end of Sampras career, Wilson did managed to convince him to try the Pro Staff Tour 90, and he did ended up switched to it, albeit a little too late... so why not give Fed a try too?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
    #36
  37. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
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    3,173
    If that is the case you are saying the AK90 is thinner? Because of some "graphite is taken away"??

    The composition should still be the same otherwise it will be a totally different stick. I don't question your knowledge on rackets but IMO it may be more feel than real specs. To me the AK90 feels like the same stick only less hl.

    Manufacturing POV- it will be the easiest to just make the K90 the same and fit with a light grip to make it overall lighter. Making a whole new stick would be a little more costly. It will also feel like those fake 90 with only graphite and different mold. Back in 07 I believe that would be the easiest solution for them.

    Anyway it seems like this thread is going off track. I'll be leaving it. Peace
     
    #37
  38. chrisberchris

    chrisberchris Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
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    398
    Location:
    Carrollton, GA
    All I know is that I want one!
     
    #38
  39. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,793
    No, the AK90 is not thinner. They probably used less graphite or whatever material in the layup on the inside. That's probably why it feels more flexible. I don't think the weight difference of 20 grams can be made up with just the handle. I've looked inside the handles of both the AK90 and the US K90 and they look the same to me, as do the handle material. And like I said, both feel to have the same balance to me. If anything the US K90 feels less headlight to me because there's definitely more weight in the hoop than in the AK90, which is also why the US K90 is so much more powerful.

    And racquet companies make lighter versions of frames for their sponsored pros all the time so they can customize them to their desired specs, so I don't think it's very hard to do nor a big deal for them.
     
    #39
  40. PaulC

    PaulC Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Lessons from Apple

    Ran into a former professor and retired CA district court judge who's kind enough to chat about the Asian Wilson frames issue a little...

    He laughed at my over-simplified rendering of a possible class-action case.

    "Sit down son. First of all, the important thing is NOT whether such a "discrimination" case is valid or not...

    ** The more important issue is that will Wilson as a company give some of their customers an *impression* that Wilson discriminates them or worse, ignores them, albeit maybe only a very small amount of their customers.**

    Once such perception formed, damage is done and can spread.

    Look at how Apple handled the Chinese customers who received arguably inferior after-sale services not long ago (their "Asian version" of service: instead of replacing the iPhone altogether like those in U.S., they will only repair them).

    After it was exposed, ended up Tim Cook have to make sure damage-control is done and offer EQUAL level of service to them.

    But of course, the Chinese market has such a huge leverage that no rational exec will insist that "they have no obligation to offer the same kind of services there".

    Back to your case, the leverage is WAY too small even the so called "Class" is dubious -- it can NOT be all U.S. consumers to begin with.

    And let's say if you find enough unhappy customers for the class, what is the damage/injury?? -- You can still order them on the Asian web sites acccording to what you said, Wilson didn't ban this -- so it is the shipment fee provided that you can't find any further proof that Wilson has the INTENT to discriminate ...

    As for the retailers, unless you have proof that MOST IF NOT ALL Wilson reps engaged in *systematic efforts* to bully them not to carry the Asian frames on their own -- the case isn't going anywhere.

    Discrimination is the wrong case for retailers to pursue anyway, a Microsoft-Netscape-ish Anti-trust case would be more like it, but the burden will be entirely on the plantiff to proof such systematic bullying efforts exist -- given the user-base and number of shops want to carry it -- again will be dubious.

    But the thing about these lawsuits is that, it'll create bad publicity for the companies no matter how strong or weak the case is, so most companies will try to avoid them. "

    Just a follow-up to share with you folks here.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2013
    #40
  41. AREYOUOUTOFYOURVULCANMIND

    AREYOUOUTOFYOURVULCANMIND Rookie

    Joined:
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    This has happened before. When Sampras was retiring and Federer was making his entrance, Wilson transitioned from the PS85 to the PS Tour 90. I'm guessing the same thing will happen for the transition of Federer to Dimitrov with the 90 going to a 93. This is assuming Dimitrov breaks it into the top 10 and makes his mark in tennis.
     
    #41

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