Discussing the second tier

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Flash O'Groove, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    The discussion on the top 10 of all time was very interesting. It was an incentive to discover players I didn't know well at all. I would like to compare the other past great who don't qualify, for a lot of posters, for the top 10.

    Here is a an arbitrary list of some players which I want to discuss, with their main achievement. It include only open era great, because I don't know well enough the second tier of the pro era. So if old-timer want to discuss other past great they are welcome.

    1. Boris Becker. He won 49 overall single titles, including 6 slams and 3 year end championship, reached 4 slam finals and 5 YEC finals.

    2. Edberg. He won 42 titles, including 6 slams (5 finals), and 1 YEC (1 final). He was n°1 for 72 weeks.

    2. Wilanders. He won 33 titles, including 7 slams, and reached 4 finals. He won three slams in 1988.

    I rank Wilanders and Edberg behind Becker because the AO field, while it wasn't too weak, lacked the presence of some of the top players in the 80's.

    4. Nastase. He won 57 titles, including 2 slams, and reached 3 finals, while playing AO only once, when he was old. He also won 4 YEC and reached 1 finals.

    5. Courrier. He won only 23 titles, but this include 4 slams and 3 finals. I think is AO are fully legitimate as most of the top players where present. He reached two YEC finals.

    6. Ashe. He won 35 open era titles, including 3 slams and 2 finals. He also won one YEC. His AO is legitimate as mot of the top players where present (except the best two...)

    7. Newcombe. He won 31 open era tittles, won 5 slams, including 2 AO in very weak fields. He also reached 2 slams finals, one of them in a very weak AO field, and one YEC.

    8. Vilas. He won 62 titles, 4 slams, including two AO with weak fields, and one YEC. He reached 3 RG finals. He should probably be ranked higher, but I don't know precisely.

    9. Smith, who won 54 open era titles, including 1 USO and 1 Wimby, and to YEC.

    9. Kuerten, who won only 20 titles, including three RG and 1 WTF, in a very short career.

    9. Hewitt, who won 28 titles, including two slams, 2 YEC, and who reached also 2 slams finals.

    9. Kodes, who won 3 slams, including a boycotted wimby with the weakest field ever. He reached two USO finals.

    What do you think of this ranking. It only take into account the result and the bigger tournament, but not the consistency to reach a lot of SF, the H2H, the winning percentage, etc. I wish to provide a base for the discussion with it.

    Note: I used YEC to design the elite championship at the end of a season. It is a gross simplification but I'm not familiar enough with the different kind of tournaments.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
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  2. Nadal_Power

    Nadal_Power Semi-Pro

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    Lleyton must be ahead of Guga, no doubt. Rest is fine
     
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  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Your list is pretty good but Djokovic is second tier and never top tier, so is Agassi
    WCT was a major so add one more title to Newk and Boris as well as two to
    Smith who won Masters and also WCT
    In fact your Ashe YEC is a WCT title
    I think you listed the right ones
    Please since I suposse you ranked them in top tier, consider Mac won 5 Wct and 3 Masters, Lendl 5 Masters and 2 Wct, Borg won 2 Masters and 1 WCt - not counting lost finals at both- Connors has 2 Dallas crowns and 1 Masters and Rosewall has two Dallas beating
    Laver in both finals to go along 4 opem era slams
     
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  4. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    It's not a bad list at all, you got a starting base for discussion alright.

    Becker, Edberg and Wilander are pretty close in their major career achievements overall, some people may have them in different orders. I would probably give Boris the edge out of the three of them as well.
    Nastase won a lot of titles in 72 and 73 in particular, should have won more Slam tournaments considering he did so well at the Masters. 4 Masters, 3 in a row. That was Ilie though. No.4 not bad for Ilie.
    I would probably have Newcombe ahead of Courier and Ashe. Newcombe and Ashe both won the WCT Dallas crown in the mid-70's in very strong fields. They both beat Jimbo in GS finals in 1975.
    Vilas might be higher, but yes, his AO wins were won in years when many of the very best players didn't go to Australia. Vilas never beat Borg in a Grand Slam event, but did win a good Masters in Oz.
    Smith and then either Hewitt or Kodes.

    That's my first impressions, will revisit the thread for further thoughts and may change things as I hear other opinions.
     
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  5. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    I left Djokovic out as he has a lot of achievement in front of him. Beside I know enough about him. Agassi and McEnroe are in the top 10 of some people (often at the bottom end of it), so I left them out too. I think they would be a the top of the list if they were included.

    I'm not very familiar with the WCT, WTF, Masters, etc., so I used YEC as a generic terms to design these tournaments. Thank you for the informations concerning the Masters, WCT and Dallas. I did considered that these players are usually ranked in the top tier.
     
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  6. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for these views. I gave Newcombe a penalty because the AO field were very weak since 1972, with none of the top europeans or americans showing. This leave him with less slams and less finals appearance. Obviously he is penalized as I didn't consider his results in the amateur tour.
     
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  7. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Hoad is missing from this list
     
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  8. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Vilas is much better than Nastase, Ashe and even Courier.
     
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  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I guess Djokovic will be tier 1 at the end of his career. Do you agree?
     
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  10. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    IMO, top 10

    djokovic
    becker
    edberg
    wilander
    newk

    courier
    nastase
    ashe
    hewitt
    kuerten

    and why is kodes in that list ?

    safin, rafter, stich, krajicek, roddick etc. who aren't mentioned are quite clearly better than him ......
     
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  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The toughest indoor event of the 1970 was 74 WCT finals with this field
    Borg, Newcombe, Kodes, Nastase, Okker,Laver,Smith and Ashe
    Newk won it
     
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  12. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic has some good chance to enter the top 10 in a short time so I didn't include him.

    Why do you consider Newcombe so high? I admit that even if he substract his two AO he has still more majors than Nastase, but Nastase reached also 3 finals and won 4 YEC!

    Similarily, Courrier has 4 fully legitimitate slam win, and 3 finals. His only downside is that he won very few overall titles.

    You removed Smith form the list, who has two full slam and 54 overall titles. Nearly twice as many as Hewitt.

    For Kodes, even if you substract his Wimbledon 73, he still has two slams and two slam finals. That's far better than what Stich or Krajiceck have. I agree that Safin, Rafter and Roddick could be in the discussion.

    Forzamilan, I know Hoad should be here somewhere, but it is very difficult to class him in this list, with seven pro slam runner-up result, and one win at the tournament of champion. I have no idea what was his format.

    Other old pro that could be included are Segman, Gimeno and Segura.
     
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  13. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    newk also won the WCT in 1974 ( was considered to be the best player in the first half of that year )

    his record in the majors is simply much superior to nastase's ... though nastase's YEC record does compensate for that gap to an extent ....

    newk was just more consistent & much less flaky than nastase


    newk won 3 full majors, 2 in amateurs & 2 at the AO, while the field in 75 AO wasn't good at all, atleast he had that legendary face-off vs connors there in the final ...

    he was at the top for quite a bit longer than courier ...

    hewitt has 2 years ending at no1 and two YECs as well ...

    where did you get 54 overall titles for smith ? going by the records, he has 36 after 1968 ...

    one thing to remember is there were lots of "mickey mouse" tournaments that time ...that "inflates" the title count of players in comparison to the modern players

    his 2 USO finals were very good ... but 70 RG was again a very depleted one ...71 RG as well to a lesser extent ....(Rome 71 had a deeper field that year ) ... his overall no of titles = 8 .....

    both stich and krajicek have clearly more than that ....

    they won their slams in very impressive fashion ...

    stich beating edberg and becker back to back ...

    krajicek beating stich and sampras back to back ...

    stich also won the YEC in 93 beating sampras in the finals ...

    in full fields, the chances of stich and krajicek winning slams is more than that of Kodes IMO ..

    kodes was owned by - laver, rosewall, borg, connors, newk, nastase ...he has respectable records vs ashe/smith that's it ..

    krajicek OTOH had respectable records vs almost everyone ... he lead 6-2 in h2h vs sampras at one stage ...

    stich did make 2 other major finals as well - USO 94 and RG 96
     
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  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Maybe it also depends when you start counting
     
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  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, Hoad also won 4 Grand Slam tournaments.

    Of course there would be some other players in tier 2 like Kozeluh, Nüsslein, Drobny, Roche.
     
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  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think the thread is about open era only.Hoad is an all time great but did little since 68 on...
     
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  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Mate, WCT and Dallas is the same here.Dallas was the venue of the WCT championship which was a tour ran from 1971 to 1989.Merged with Gran Prix four years ( 78 to 81) then broke up again until dissapearing in 89.
     
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  18. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    yeah if this is open era only, might be a good idea to edit the OP and state that clearly so we know which to go by
     
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  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, I can give you additional information about two players: According to "Winners" (Michel Sutter) Ashe has won 71 titles and Newcombe has won 68 ones.
     
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  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hewitt¡¡¡¡ good joke.Great and extremely match against that argentinian with such a long name...Roddick got 1/3 of Kodes majors, right? yes¡¡ memory is still working...
     
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  21. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Right. Top ten.
     
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  22. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    No no, it include any player of the the past whom range of achievement compare from Hewitt to Becker. As you say, Hoad is a all time great for a lot of people so he isn't really a part of this discussion.
     
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  23. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Top 10 in the second tier list alongside these guys, yes. Top 10 all time as you think him, no.
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hoad is a cathegory by himself
    An angel in midst human
     
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  25. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    As I think him? You are in a jesting mood, obviously.

    Most knowledgable critics rate Hoad in the top ten.
    Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, who are pretty knowledgable, rate him number one.
    What a joke.
     
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  26. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    He'd be top 10 if critics made a list 30-40 years ago. With all the great players of the era open era in mind, he finds no place in any serious top 10 list. Djokovic already has surpassed him, and he himself is behind guys like Agassi, Connors, Lendl, McEnroe, etc.
     
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  27. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    More humour, I see.

    30-40 years ago?
    Rosewall listed him number one in 1962, but also in 2010.
    Gonzales listed him number one in 1970, but also in 1995.
    Laver listed him number one in 2012.
    Kramer rated him in the top five in 2007.
    Buchholz rated him number one in 2007.
    Krishnan rated him number one in 2007.

    Not exactly old ratings.
     
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  28. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    You seriously going to find a place for this guy in the top 10 with following candidates in mind? Federer, Laver, Sampras, Gonzales, Tilden, Borg, Rosewall, Nadal, Lendl, Connors, Agassi, McEnroe, Newcombe, Perry, Emerson, Lacoste, Budge, Djokovic? Becker? Edberg? Wilander? Come on now even top 15 is really pushing it. I've read your comment wars with Bobby...got a pretty good idea any argument I throw your way wom't make a difference, Hoad is greatest thing since sliced bread.

    P.s. laver ranked him at 1 for pre open era, not overall.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  29. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Laver ranked him ahead of Gonzales, Rosewall, Tilden, Newcombe, Perry, Emerson, Lacoste, Budge, Kramer. Who am I (or you, for that matter) to argue with Laver, who played against Hoad many times and lost two tours against him?

    Rosewall's list in 2010.
    1) Hoad
    2) Gonzales
    3) Laver
    4) Federer

    Rosewall is a very astute judge.
     
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  30. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Well, let's take Kramer as a judge. Kramer didn't think much of Laver and didn't rank him as high as many people do here on this forum. Does that make his opinion right?
     
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  31. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    BTW with all due respect to Rosewall, but if he seriously made that list in 2010, with Hoad as the best ever, and the others following (Sampras???????????) the man is clearly biased. Anybody with half an ounce of common sense would see that as illogical on some many levels.
     
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  32. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Federer's won 2 more slams, 2 more WTF's and broken the weeks record at #1 since then though. So he's probably moved up.
     
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  33. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    nah, Rosewall has an agenda. (wink)
     
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  34. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I doubt he's as petty as his fans.
     
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  35. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Right. There's a conspiracy behind every tree.
    Kramer, Buchholz, Krishnan, Laver, Rosewall... a giant conspiracy.
     
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  36. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Biased?
    Common sense tells me that Hoad's achievements in 1958 and 1959 exceed the accomplishments of Federer or Laver in their best years.
     
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  37. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    hahahahahahaha whatever man, enjoy that belief
     
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  38. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    What did he achieve that eclipses a Grand Slam? Or even 3 slams in a single year and 94% win percentage?
     
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  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, As I have tried to convince Dan in several posts, Laver and Rosewall made their lists obviously considering peak play not achievements. Regarding achievements Hoad is never a top ten player of course.
     
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  40. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Laver I think did it right splitting the pre open era and open era into two (the other list with Fed, Sampras, etc.). Even then Hoad as number 1 in pre open era, however, is probably due to similar time period of Laver, and peer respect (like Murray or Djokovic a few times saying Nadal is GOAT or whatever after a tough match to him, when he is nowhere near that, especially with another player who is still active and is the best candidate for that). I think they probably say that out of respect for Hoad, or what could have been, but even then that's overtly generous. Hoad ain't the only man to have a scary peak form, or win 3 slams in a year and make the final of another, or have a really solid overall great year, or be hampered by injuries, have unfulfilled potential etc.
    Yeah, Laver's lists are a bit more logical, although not perfect. The Rosewall one, pretty poor. That's my opinion. I wonder what'd they say if we polled them right now on the spot, especially interested in what Rosewall has to say....Laver's a homie.
     
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  41. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, not out of generosity or friendship. Not even close.
    Answer this. How many players were able to convince Gonzales that they were better than he was? Laver? Rosewall? Kramer? No, only one player.
    That should make you think a bit. Gonzales never gave anything away unless it was earned, as Hoad earned it in 1958 and 1959, two better years than Laver or Fed ever enjoyed.
    Number one in money and tournament points both years, against the toughest field ever assembled.
     
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  42. Dan Lobb

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    No, they did not do it on peak play, but in overall considerations. Who had the edge against whom.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  43. Dan Lobb

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  44. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    94% against whom? The local guys?
    You have to break down the matches and opponents.
    Hoad faced the toughest field ever assembled and won the overall money and points list in 1958 and 1959.
     
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  45. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    How are you judging 1958 and 1959 as the toughest field ever? I think ranking competition is pretty hard, what big tournaments did he win? Etc...

    If it's comparable to 3 majors, a WTF and 4 masters then we can discuss competition. Them after that you can try and explain how it could beat winning all 4 majors in a calender year...
     
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  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    That's achievements.
     
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  47. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Remember, that in the 4 current majors there are several rounds of lesser competitors to go through, sometimes even six rounds of weak competition.
    In the old pro tour of the late 50's, there was a tough match every day.
    Is the WTF a major? Didn't look like it this year.

    In 1958, Hoad won the tournament championship on points and money in a field consisting of Hoad, Gonzales, Rosewall, Sedgman, Segura, Trabert. Four top ten all-timers, and two on the short-list.
    The series consisted of 5 tournaments, Hoad winning at Kooyong, and a 3 to 1 edge on Gonzales. Overall 13 wins, 10 losses.

    In 1959, in a 14 tournament series, he won on points and money in a field of Hoad, Gonzales, Rosewall, Sedgman, Trabert, Anderson, Segura, Cooper, Rose, Hartwig, Giammalva, McGregor. Not a weak link anywhere, and Hartwig defeated Hoad once in the series. Hoad won 6 tournaments, including the Australian Pro at Adelaide, the Forest Hills Pro, Kooyong. He was 6 to 2 over Rosewall (including Kooyong, Forest Hills, Adelaide, Roland Garros) and 3 and 5 against Gonzales (2 and 2 in tournament deciders).
    Overall 34 wins and 13 losses.

    In addition to the tournament series, he was 36 and 51 against Gonzales in the 1958 American/Australian tour (although he had a 15 to 3 winning streak early in the series, and won the greatest match of the series at Kooyong in 80 games), and 42 and 20 on the 1959 American tour (15 to 13 against Gonzales).

    The numbers of matches he played these two years were 120+ in 1958 (despite missing four months to injury), and 150+ in 1959, far more competition than Federer or Sampras played in a year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
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  48. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Video or didn't happen
     
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  49. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    I guess all those newspaper and magazine reporters were part of a giant conspiracy? Right.

    Kramer did not allow the TV cameras access to the big pro tournaments or tours. He was afraid that TV would damage the live gate.
    He preferred short-term commercial advantage to the long-term growth of the pro game.

    By the way, I guess that Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford could not have made it to the pros in today's baseball, Palmer and Nicklaus and Player would never make the cut in today's PGA tour, Unitas and Starr would not make starters in today's NFL, Chamberlain and West would be bench players in today's NBA, and Hull and Mahovlich would be minor-league players for today's NHL. I see your point.

    Golf, football, baseball, curling, hockey, basketball went the other way, and TV built up a mass audience for professional sports.

    You can see some films of Hoad in his prime. The January 1963 Kooyong match against Laver, won by Hoad at 6-3 in the fifth set, has been shown on Australian TV.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
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  50. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I obvs busted your balls with that post, but seriously though I don't see the case for Hoad being in the top period. Not one of those players can be bumped out for him: Federer, Laver, Sampras, Gonzales, Tilden, Rosewall, Borg, Nadal, Lendl, Connors
     
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