Discussing the second tier

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Flash O'Groove, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    I would give the boot to Nadal, Lendl, Connors (inferior to Newk on grass, Trabert on clay).
    Hoad still at number one, according to Gonzales (not a generous man), Rosewall, Laver, Buchholz (who played them all), Krishnan, ....
    The guys who played against him know the truth.
    Fed has only put in about ten good years, the same as Hoad.
    And you agree that Mickey Mantle, Unitas, Palmer, Nicklaus, Hull, Mahovlich, Chamberlain, West would all be busts today? Right.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    #51
  2. Indio

    Indio Rookie

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    #52
  3. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I'd see you argument if the guy won more, but he's got more losses in pro major finals than wins (couting pro majors too see wikipedia, 1-7). he's 4-2 in the not pro majors. How I am supposed to believe the hype for this guy with these kind of stats?
     
    #53
  4. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for asking, I have some information for you. No problem.
    Start with Joe McCauley's history of pro tennis (I discovered that he put the Kooyong final event of 1959 under 1960 by mistake. The dates should be December 25 to January 1, 1960, the final played on New Year's Day 1960).

    Here are the player accomplishments for 1959:

    1) Hoad: won 6 tournaments on the 14 tournament championship series (funded by Ampol and Qantas) including Australian Pro at Adelaide, Forest Hills Pro, Kooyong
    record of 42 to 20 on American championship tour, including 15 to 13 against Gonzales

    2) Gonzales: won 4 tournaments on championship series, including Sydney (twice), L.A. Masters, Toronto
    won American tour with 47 to 15 record
    won unaccredited US Pro at Cleveland


    3) Rosewall: won two tournaments on championship series, at Brisbane

    4) Sedgman: won Kooyong in Jan. 1959 on championship series
    won tours of New Zealand, European Grand Prix, South Africa

    5) Trabert: won Roland Garros on championship series

    6) Anderson: won Wembley Indoor (outside championship series)

    7) Segura: won Tel Aviv

    8) Cooper: won Slazenger (Eastbourne) (outside championship series)

    9) Rose: played at Forest Hills Pro, others
    defeated Sedgman at Wagga Wagga, NSW
    defeated Hartwig in Australian Pro at Adelaide
    lost to Hoad in Australian Pro 6-8, 14-12, 6-4
    defeated Giammalva at Forest Hills Pro 16-14, 6-0
    defeated Remy at Roland Garros Pro 3-6, 6-4, 6-0, 6-4
    defeated Bottke at Wembley Pro 6-3, 6-1
    defeated Anderson at Tel Aviv
    defeated Segura at Brisbane

    10) Hartwig: defeated Hoad at Perth 6-4, 6-1 (Hoad won tournament)

    11) Giammalva: played at Forest Hills Pro
    won Southern Pro Grasscourt, defeating both Budge and Riggs

    12) McGregor: played Australian portion of tour
    defeated Anderson head-to-head series, 3 matches to 0

    There were no easy matches on this tour.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    #54
  5. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    "Pro Majors"? The Wikipedia article is a little strange on this.
    There were two tournament championships, in 1958 and 1959. Each tournament in the series had points for finishing, to divide the bonus money pool at season's end.
    Neither series involved the Cleveland (an unaccredited title) or Wembley events, which were not under Kramer management.
    The Cleveland had a weak field (the Australian Pro had a much stronger field) and the Wembley was won by Anderson in 1959.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Video of the US Civil war or it didn´t happen
     
    #56
  7. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    haha good form, good form. Do you think Hoad is top 10?
     
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  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think you cannot judge Gonzales and Hoad with current glasses.They played what some consider the most competitive era in the most wild and harmful entourgae, that of the late 50´s pros.Hoad could have stayed amateur and win tons of slams or get pro and, in the very shadows of that world, become a better player by testing day in and out in the most uncredible conditions - which would make parents forbide their sons to become pro nowadays-.I trust those extremely authorized voices, like Bellamy,Tingling,Tingay,Maskell and some others who were literally driven crazy by that blond tornado.Imagine Becker and Nastase in one player, that was him.
     
    #58
  9. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    So he gets in your top 10?
     
    #59
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He is in a limbo.he is his own cathegory, he and Gonzales.if we consider regular majors, then they are far behind Laver and Rosewall.
     
    #60
  11. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    would Emerson also be in limbo given his special circumstances?
     
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  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It wouldn´t be a bad idea.I think he is top 20 but not top 10.Hoad is top 4 or 5 for peak play.maybe higher.
     
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  13. Indio

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    Dan Lobb: Thanks for the time and effort in showing what each of those twelve players achieved in that year. If it's not too much trouble, would you briefly explain the differences between professional tournaments of the 50s-60s era and those of the Open era?
     
    #63
  14. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    In the prime years of the old pro tour (1958-59), there were the first championship series, 5 events in 1958, 14 in 1959, with points awarded for finishes and a bonus money pool for the full year.
    Most of the 1958 tournaments were 6-man round robins, but in 1959 most were 8-man three round events. At Wembley, it was usually four rounds, supplemented by some lower level European pros (Wembley was not managed by the Kramer tour).
    After 1968, the WCT (Handsome Eight) played three rounders, and the older NTL (Laver, Rosewall, etc.) played two round events.

    The major difference from today's pro events is that the older eras of pro events featured a tough challenge in each match (usually), whereas today the early rounds pose few challenges for the top players.
    Overall, the older pros played many more matches per year than today's pros.
     
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  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    A correction: In 1968 the NTL pros played mostly three rounds also.
     
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  16. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I see. Also a fair number of two rounders, and some round robin events.
     
    #66
  17. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

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    Agassi
    Becker
    Djokovic
    Edberg
    Wilander
    Newcombe
    Courier
    Ashe
    Vilas
    Nastase
     
    #67
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    There are 7-8 major winners here like Newcombe,Becker,Wilander,Djokovic.

    While one thing is peak play and the other records, if we go exclusively by records, Ashe,Nastase,Edberg,Courier,Vilas ( and Kodes and Smith) would be considered third tier...
     
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  19. Dan Lobb

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    Don't forget Trabert, Emerson, Crawford, Williams, others, all of whom are candidates for top fifteen.
     
    #69
  20. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    You have excluded Emerson, Trabert, Crawford, Williams, all of whom could play at a high level.
     
    #70
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    There are many players that can make the top ten and more can make the top 15.I was refeering to the former´s poster list.In general terms, although I don´t see Williams, the other would do it.Craeford, like Connors,Hoad,Wilander won 3 out of 4 majors in one single year and that should mean something...Trabert was there too, and so would be Emerson, but Emerson competition was not so great for many of his best years, so I´d include him in a top 20 list but hardly top 15.
     
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  22. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Emmo's record would look better if he hadn't been injured twice at Wimbledon, in 1962 running into a net post and breaking his foot (he was not fully recovered in the 1962 Forest Hills final), and at Wimbledon in 1966 he ran into an umpire's chair, injuring his playing shoulder.
     
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  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He had by far the best am record, but other than Santana and Stolle, from 1963 till 1967 he didn´t face too strong competition.osuna,Ralston,Mc Kinley , Pietrangeli were OK but not great opposition.we have gone through this in former threads...
     
    #73
  24. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Ashe wasn't a bad player in this era. Also young Roche and Newcombe.
    Emmo played a lot of close finals, not least the 1964 Canadian final, where he trailed two sets to love against Stolle, but won in a close five sets.
     
    #74
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Can´t believe my eyes that Cochet and Lacoste are not considered...they were two of the best players that ever played the game and his record speaks volumes...
     
    #75
  26. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    But, of course, any list ranking potential GOATs worth paying attention to must go beyond titles won at majors.

    That would almost be like looking at a book's cover, and saying you knew everything it contained. Tennis has a complicated history. There are many exceptions, qualifications, prohibitions, caveats, splits, and twists.

    It cannot be simply boiled down to one single total, such as total number of slam titles. That would result in a statistically correct, but misleading list:
    1. Roy Emerson (28 )
    2. John Newcombe (26)
    3. Todd Woodbridge (23)
    4. Frank Sedgman (22)
    5. Bob Bryan (20)
    6. John Bromwich (19)/Neale Fraser (19)/Fred Stolle (19)
    7. Jean Borotra (18 )
    8. John McEnroe (17)/Adrian Quist (17)/Roger Federer (17)/Mark Woodforde (17)/Ken Rosewall (17)
    9. Bill Tilden (16)/Tony Roche (16)/Mike Bryan (16)
    10. Bob Hewitt (15)
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
    #76
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, A few corrections:

    Newcombe 25
    Tilden 21
    Laver 20
    Rosewall 18
    Stolle 18
     
    #77
  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    hoodjem say Emerson won 28 majors. If those majors are in single and are equal to the modern slams, then he's the goat.
     
    #78
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Mighty Federer, I agree that Emerson is not the GOAT. But your idiots from Tennis Channel have ranked him 11th, ahead of Rosewall and far ahead Gonzalez!
     
    #79
  30. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    how did you figure out his username is an acronym for The Mighty Federer?
     
    #80
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, It was not me who figured it out. I read it in another thread. But this name is fitting for him as he has only one single issue: Roger Federer...
     
    #81
  32. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Tennis has been around for over 100 years, for him to make the #11 on all time great is an honor.
     
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  33. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    well my username is also fitting, cause tomorrow Barca is going down!
     
    #83
  34. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    You are wrong!!!:D

    It stands for Triumphant Muscles Forever.:wink:
     
    #84
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    (Sorry, I was trying to compile this from memory before.)


    Most Grand Slam titles[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grand_Slam_related_tennis_records#Most_Grand_Slam_combined_titles_.28all_time.29]

    1. Roy Emerson (28 )
    2. John Newcombe (25)
    3. Todd Woodbridge (23)
    4. Frank Sedgman (22)
    5. Bill Tilden (21)
    6. Bob Bryan (20)/Rod Laver (20)
    7. Jack Bromwich (19)/Fred Stolle (19)
    8. Jean Borotra (18 )/Neale Fraser (18 )/Ken Rosewall (18 )
    9. Jack Crawford (17)/Adrian Quist (17)/John McEnroe (17)/Roger Federer (17)
    10. Tony Roche (16)/Mike Bryan (16)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
    #85
  36. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I stand corrected
     
    #86
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem: Newcombe has 25 titles and Rosewall 18.
     
    #87
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Sorry again for milanesi...
     
    #88
  39. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    #89
  40. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    You're welcome to sit.:wink:
     
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  41. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^
    Then that settles it....Emerson is the goat and Newcombe is right behind him.
     
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  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    MIGHTY FEDERER, You misinterpreted me. Of course it's an honour for Emmo to be ranked 11th. I did not regret he is "only" No.11. I Criticized that he is ranked so high! No 11 is too much honour for Emerson absolutely and relatively to the ranking of much greater players (Rosewall , Gonzalez and others).
     
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  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Sorry, Forza, for AC Milano.
     
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  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, I trust Bud Collins's encyclopedia more than Wikipedia.

    Newcombe/Smith shared the 1965 mixed title with Davidson/Ebbern. The final was not played. It's not clear if we should count it as a major win. Some sources don't.

    Rosewall won 18 majors. Wikipedia forgot Ken's mixed win at the 1956 US Championships!
     
    #94
  45. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I do too.

    (I have found many errors in Wikipedia, not even having to do with tennis.)
     
    #95
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, hoodjem, in Wikipedia everybody can write. I'm sure there were some errors too if I would write there. We all make errors from time to time...
     
    #96
  47. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    kiki and Bobby, man, that was brutal....had Niang scored that goal instead of hitting the post the game would have been so different, and Barca would have had to score 4 (which they did eventually but game was over by then essentially) but with Milan's mentality being different. Brutal, but hey young team (kind of sucks to know Niang is actually 4 years younger than me), this was only the beginning. Next season with full squad, and Balotelli eligible....looking forward to it.
     
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  48. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Rosewall is #13, not far off. Would you be satisfy if Emerson and Rosewall swap places ?
     
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  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Has AC tried hiring Kodes to improve figjhting@winning atottude?
     
    #99
  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Rosewall is clearly above Emerson
    Where is Jan Kodes?
     

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