Distinctions and Differences: The observations of 3.0 bounding to 4.0

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Aurellian, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Coach's always say you are better than you are so you will continue to pay them money hoping to improve your tennis.
    If the coach was realistic, and decided to tell you..."you suck, you are hopeless, you are a geek, you are blind, and no amount of lessons will ever help your game".... would you continue to pay him?
    I've had tennis instructors come up to me and tell me I'm 5.0 material, based on watching a few points from the sidelines. I"m a low 4.0. They just need to inflate my ego so I'll dole out some money to them.
     
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  2. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    Sometimes I'm not certain you read my posts. Most if not all 4.5s are above my level and so, in my world of limited time, I prepare for 4.0 sectionals by expending my preparation time only on players above my level.

    It's certainly not "beneath me" to play you. It's just that my goal is to dial up my game, and the most efficient way to do that is to play 4.5s right now.
     
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  3. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Lol...Some do. Some also say you suck, change your style--one duede in Vegas told me to hold my rackhed down before every shot--so u will feel that you need them.

    i agree. the coaches are all about their money.

    Who knows Lee...maybe you are 5.0 material if you play every day, take HGH, and live at NB's for four months.
     
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  4. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    Based on what you said, you're at least 3.5 league player, and you're just slowing down your own progress by self-rating 3.0 and playing inferior players.
     
    #54
  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Aurelian....
    I'm 64, cannot run one step now for 6 years, know my eyesight and reflexes have been going downhill for the past 30 years, not to mention my strength and explosion.
    It's unrealistic for any "coach" to say I"m "5.0" material. There are VERY few 64 year old 5.0's in the world of tennis.
    That, considering there were easily 1,000 former top 50 pros who aged to 64.
     
    #55
  6. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I just had one question, Aurellian, if I may?

    You mentioned you used ot serve with a 'hammer grip' but your coach told you to change it.

    are you certain this is what happened? a 'hammer grip' is essentially a 'continental grip' and is without doubt the correct grip to use for the serve..

    perhaps you are confusing 'hammer grip' (ie, hand basically on top of the racquet like, well, a hammer) with 'frying pan grip' (ie, racquet parallel with the ground)?

    I can't really imagine a coach wanting to change someone away from a continental grip..

    good luck with your tennis, by the way. :)
     
    #56
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Maybe hammer as opposed to pistol?
    Like the vid circulating by using hammer to get RHS?
    I don't believe in that vid. You need to try both to see that aligning the racket shaft with your forearm doesn't take away much pronation effect on RHS.
    Shadow swing with both holding styles, and listen carefully.
     
    #57
  8. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Hey Boss, as Mitt says" "No apologies." You have the right to play who you want. I can try to goad you into a match and you can take the bait or not.

    But of course, stripped of euphemism: you are saying I am not worth your time to play because you prefer 4.5 sparring partners and I am a full level below you.

    That's cool. I feel ya. I feel the same way and have no interest in playing chumps either. From this point on i am only playing 37-43 year olds with 15+ years experience because those are the chaps that give me the most trouble.
     
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  9. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    I will play 3.0 in one region for the year and see how far I go and play 4.0 on the East Coast.

    I am going to try to skip 3.5 entirely!
     
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  10. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    This happens to me all the time too. It's really comical. I'm nowhere near that level.
     
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  11. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    You can certainly beat me and likely have a 5.0 shot or two in ya...the coach just wants to bring that out.

    Maybe you look 45. Some people age well. My coach in BKK was a 62 year old Farang and looked awesome. I think he was on roids and died his hair...Harold Miner....
     
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  12. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Yes, a frying pan grip. Sorry, Sir. I still don't know what a continental grip and eastern grip are.

    People say this grip is for amateurs and that if you are not tall you can't serve like this (I am 6ft0) but it works for me.

    That's why i cant put any spin on the ball.

    You have to understand that I am not using any legs or pronation or shoulder turn. i am essentially using brute force to pound the ball straight ahead. I bench press 280 and am pretty strong so I can get away with this.

    I also think the ball has a slight backspin to it so when it catches it stays low. That's why my pro who played on the tour says that I when I serve well it's very hard for him to get back. We go full out for 15 minutes a session and I normally ace him a few times.

    I'm not sure of the mechanics of it as that's not my forte;you seem to have a greater understanding of this stuff than I do.
     
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  13. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    That makes little sense, but, hey, it's your life.
     
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  14. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    That's bad news, it means you're very unlikely to improve your serve, in terms of consistency and placement. You'll have to make drastic changes to your mechanics, which will likely reduce the power of your serve, for a while at least. I think I know what you're talking about now. We have a 3.5 player who used to be a racquetball semi-pro. He's got a wicked flat serve, with slight underpin, but very little control, and very poor consistency. One day it works, the other it doesn't. He kind of arms it as well, doesn't have the right motion. It's a dead end really. BTW, your bench press has nothing to do with serve speed, you can be benching 100, and serve 110, it's more about racket head speed, not strength.
     
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  15. robert

    robert Rookie

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    I support Aurellian on service speed. People don't understand that having good serve is a gift instead of training.

    Half of my 3.5 teammates can serve 100mph. One of my 3.0 buddy can do 135mph.
     
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  16. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    3.0 with a 135mph serve, now, that's what I'd call a waste of talent :) Maybe he should switch to baseball.
     
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  17. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    A response to the a 3.5 never could serve 105 or above. Like I have said before if I get a hold of a good serve its 115. This is my 5th straight year rated 3.5. And at most I play mid 4.0 level play. At 4.0 I play vs 2 guys who were serving 105 + at 3.5 I played 2 as well (last year). And other years there were some Big servers in my local 3.5 and 4.0 leagues. In fact two of my hitting partners over the years could top out at 115 as well. 1 played about as good as me (though i was better, he was also rated 3.5) the other guy is not quite as good as me and for some reason only cranks out the 110 ocasionally.

    Also I have played forum poster kenny(bunch of numbers). And he could confirm both that I serve 105-115 and my old hitting partner could as well and like I said I think he is still rated 3.5. Kenny probally did not see a ton of 115 cuz at the the time I served with more spin.
     
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  18. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Kind of. You are right that serving with the frying pain grip will restrict the type of serves that one can execute.

    Where I disagree with you is that if I am serving 105-115mph without practicing it--it makes me too tired to and puts excessive strain on my shoulder--and it's good enough to be beat a youngish former touring pro for games why change it?

    And if one is doing it 50% of the time why can't it be increased to 75% of the time?

    The fact of the matter is that very few people below 5.0 can hit a serve that fast. Very few. And there is no substitute or real riposte to that type of serve. Dudes at the rec level, unless they previously made a living chasing a ball--don't have this type of power and their reactions are not honed enough to respond to it.

    105 mph is very fast. Most dudes who claim they serve 105 are likely serving 85 to 90.

    If it's a dead end to the 5.0 level than I am completely fine with that. I make my money off my mind, not my body.

    The more I do it, bounce the ball, the more it goes in. 50% chance at an 70-80% victory on the point is pretty darn good. You would not take that?

    Upper body does have an impact on serve speed but that's not the only way to generate speed.

    You CAN USE BRUTE FORCE to generate power on the serve. I do and other posters who have seen me do it attest to this.

    However, you can also use physics--essentially using leverage--and the entire body to generate speed.

    The latter is much more efficient, but we are not pros, we don't have to be efficient. I can drive my Hummer to Harvard from Henderson if I want and not suffer any consequences. yeah, a Pirrus would be better but in the end if I got the gas money (the power and youth to do it) I will get there all the same in time for class. My mom says I am dumb for driving a hummer. i say it's my style.

    Tennis is an individual sport and if you can win you can win in any style you want. Some people are unorthodox, most are not. And these coaches teach to their style not to your's.

    really, hold the racket head down before I hit? You need more topsin...blah blah blah.

    if my style is to whack the ball at you as hard as I can so be it. if it goes in great, if it goes out good for my opponent. If it hits you will have a bruise the next day on your body to remind you to duck faster or get that racket up.

    I watched a match with this FAT D1 College player. he was fat, not big but FAT. Plays for New Mexico or something and the dude was destroying his opponents. he was that good and that out of shape at that level....you and I can get away with much worse.

    I like players like this.
     
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  19. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Really? I doubt it.

    LOL, now I am the skeptic.

    a 100 mph serve is like a 4.4 40. Many dudes claim to run that fast in reality they run a 4.61.

    You don't see that speed with any type of consistency below the 5.0 level.
     
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  20. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    It's possible, just not common. Maybe 0 to 3 in 3.5 league and maybe 1-4 in in a 4.0 league.

    And remember nobody sees this enough to defend it so it's mostly an easy point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
    #70
  21. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    It doesn't matter if you can take 1 or 2 games off of a 5.0+, when you're lucky, if you can't beat 3.5 players consistently in a match. Tennis is not about winning a few points or a few games, it's about winning matches.

    With your serve motion, you cannot hope to improve consistency and placement, that's why you'll have to change it, unless you want to kill your chances of winning with double faults and dinky second serves.

    BTW, don't flatter yourself, I have played with people who can hit 110+mph serves, and if I know where it's going, it's not hard to adjust and return it. Given that you have no body rotation, and no variety of first serve, it's very easy to read the direction of the serve. Once it comes back, guess what, you lost the point. You simply can't rely on pace alone. Also, I still guarantee it's nowhere near 50%, just do yourself a favor and play one match with a radar gun, and see how many good 105+ serves you actually make.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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  22. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    thing is, there is a ceiling of effectiveness for the frying pan flat serve.

    because it doesn't have any spin, it is very easy for better players to not only return but also to attack. Because of the way you have to stand to get it in at all, it is pretty easy for a higher level player to 'pick'.

    I have seen this numerous times with 3.5 type players with similar serves hitting socially with stronger players. It is quite comical to see the look of utter shock as their cherished 'big serve' is utterly smashed into the far corners of the court by players who are not threatened by the pace and are used to the ball spinning and moving around, not just coming though at a nice height and saying 'please hit me'

    it's a bit like your 'dinks to corners'. Sure, it'll work for a while, but when it stops working (and even a decent 4.0 will soon start to see where they are going over the course of a match) and you have no fall back except a puffball, what then?

    I know you have claimed your coach says he has trouble getting them back.. Well, nice of him to say, but remember two things.
    1. He wants you to keep paying him and
    2. he wants to hit the ball back to you, not just smack it in to the corner as his instincts dictate.

    there are excellent reasons why no pro or even open level player serves that way, I honestly have no idea why you would not take the time at this early stage of your tennis career to just learn to do it properly instead of risking being stuck at 4.0 (at best) forever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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  23. robert

    robert Rookie

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    If you really served 115mph, why do you doubt an 3.0 can serve 130mph? So no one at your level can be better than you in serve?

    As I said, serve is a gift. I played 6.0mixed tournament once, one gal can serve 120mph. And she has been 3.5 for 10 years! So serve isn't everything.

     
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  24. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    No, it's possible. just unlikely. It's like running sub 4.4. You see it just rarely.

    My guess is that only 2-7% of players below 4.5 can serve this fast. So out of 100 players maybe 5 or 6 4.5 below can do it. . It equates to 1000s of people nationally but still a relatively small number.

    Do you think the number is higher?

    I have yet to see it and I play a lot. Of course, I don't know how fast the ball is actually moving. I am just going by anecdotal speculation. Not many of us have a radar gun in our back pockets and time our own serves.

    I do think that most people are overestimating their serve, I took a few fast serves from a top 500 male player at tennis camp that were in the 125 mph range according to the coaches there and I know that I have seen nothing with that level of pace.
     
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  25. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    I agree. Playing without proper fundamentals can ****** growth and impose a ceiling.

    Remember, I play tennis for fun. If I can be a 80% 4.0 player I am happy and will call it a tennis life.

    being a 5.0 player is not everyone's goal. It certainly is not mine.

    When you say higher level player what do you mean. 5.0+? if you are 5.0 good for you, I will never be that caliber of tennis player.


    I think that dinking to corners and running around like a fool won't get one beyond the mid 3.5 level. I get ravaged when I play this way with 4.0 players and up. One needs to take full strokes at the ball and hit it deep. if i was much quicker, a lil faster, and about 15 pounds less I might be able to pull it off but if my mom had another chromosome she would be dad.

    I think a 110mph serve will get one comfortably to the 4.5 level.

    What you are saying is correct--i do think the opinion on the coach is a little off, as he gets off on beating me. he likes to do it even more when my girl is around:) I sometimes come across as an authoritarian presence and am slightly ostentatious and many a tennis pro get off on showing me up.

    The Latin guy at Boletterri's was a real jerk in this regard. I had only been playing for six months and he beat me up for 15 minutes straight one day in front of my girl. Whatever dude.

    I don't disagree with the bulk of your assessment.
     
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  26. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Are you sure? I recall someone saying that one pro used to do it. Maybe in the 80s or 90s.
     
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  27. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    #77
  28. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    #78
  29. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    hit your spots. if you can serve 110-120 down the middle. then you can serve 105-110 on the wide serve i don't care if you are playing 5.0 players, they are going to make a lot of return errors or they are going to give you attack able returns.
     
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  30. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    Aurellian;

    Not to burst your bubble, but.....

    1. I'm 6'6" (meaning my reach is at least 8" higher than yours) and I am just BARELY able to hit "down" on the ball when trying to get in a flat one. If the ball really is going the over 100 mph you say, it is impossible to not be long at your height, it's just the physics of it. that being the case, only gravity and/or spin are gonna bring that ball down.

    2. You gotta go with the continental grip and get a little spin on that ball or it will never be a weapon. At ANY level above 3.0. period. If you wanna have a frying pan grip flat bomber that you can pull out of the bag at 30-0, 40-0, or 40-15, OK. But the flat bomb with no spin is like the belt high fastball. You might get away with it opnce per batter, but that's about it. IF the receiver (batter) smells it coming, you are gonna have a bad time.

    3. Having 4 or 5 different serves (topspin, slice, bomb, left, right, center) is fun! Coming in behind a serve while watching the receiver runiing like crazy and shanking it off the frame b/c the bounce was not what was expected is great!
     
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  31. Clive Walker

    Clive Walker Rookie

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    Re serving, there are a lot of things that don't realy add up to me,

    You don't hit with the classic serve grip, Which means you do not use the wrist snap to create pace,
    You do not use you shoulder to rotate and increase leverage
    You do not drive up from the legs to drive forward into the serve

    All you do it use your arm...

    And you claim to hit well over 100mph? this is either complete codswallop, or you have the potential to hit 140+ if you add in correct technique.
     
    #81
  32. tiger21

    tiger21 New User

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    I didn't realize that the use of radar guns was so prevalent in tennis. Are there really that many people clocking the speed of their serve; or are these posted numbers just WAGS?
     
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  33. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    good question. i described how 4-5 years ago i served with a radar gun for 20 minutes and got 108 (as my best). some of my hitting partners have served with radar guns and i am guesstimating using what hitting partners think i serve, what i served 5 years ago and what hitting partners say they served with radar guns. i don't know what techniques the other poster use to get there approximate serve speed. but certainly from some of the stuff i am reading they don't really know what they are talking about. as far as no 3.5 being about to serve 110+ because i have certainly seen multiple examples of that.
     
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  34. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    a 3.0 with a 135mph serve? That would really suck having a great serve and having the rest of your game be so putrid that you remain a 3.0.
     
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  35. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cindysphinx
    Not buying the first serve speed.

    Still . . . You should know that 3.0/3.5 guys who can knock the fuzz off the ball for the first serve but hit puff ball second serves are a dime a dozen. Not special at all.

    Now, a 3.0/3.5 guy who can hit one kind of spin serve that goes in consistently with some decent placement will be worth his weight in gold.


    I do. I've seen the OP play and he's a strong guy who takes a big cut at the serve. He easily has the strength to get it in the 110-115 range (yes, I've been to numerous pro tournaments, including Indian Wells, and I've charted matches specifically focusing on serve speed). If he got hot on a good service day and could get it in four or five straight points, I could see him hitting four aces.

    This above is from a guy who underrates my game.

    This post has evolved from my observations about jumping from 3.0 to 4.0 to addressing naysayers about me serving 105 mph.

    I am probably not hitting it 115 routinely. My normal first serve when I decided to give the heat is about 105 -108mph.

    Remember it's not a flat serve in the traditional sense. It has a slight backwards rotation so about 35% of the time it hits and skids below knee level. I am also starting to roll my wrist a bit so when I hit it it skids off to the the side erratically. But this is very inconsistent and I have only done it 8 or so times. Nobody is teaching this to me and I don't practice serving because it messes up the arm.


    My points are that a serve this fast will ace a lot of dudes 4.5 and below. My coach sees it twice a week and he gets it back in play about 50% of the time and of that a solid 50% are short balls or nonpace block backs. if I could finish those balls it means a 75% win shot a against a former touring pro.

    The only way to remedy something like this is with the mind and ultra fast reflexes--having one would not be enough. You would have to read the serve and react very quick. it's possible, but unless you were a very good athlete or better yet blessed with elite reflexes an average player with a serve like this would win the point. I am a below average player.

    Yes, if I used proper technique I have been told I would have tour caliber serve speed.

    The thing is that I need to change my grip to do so. Just like I need to change to different grip with volleys. I tied changing the grip last night and the volleys went everywhere. So i switched back. I don't want to interrupt my progress because I am getting better and I want to have double the points of the #2 3.0 in my State. That's my goal. Next year when I leap to 4.0 I will change my technique.
     
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  36. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    mostly wags but a few are legit...a handful of people in the State at each level likely have serves this fast.
     
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  37. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    yeah, maybe a slow powerlifter type who moved very bad.

    or we are talking about a guy who hit it once or twice in practice out of 20 serves or so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
    #87
  38. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    yes, i agree:)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
    #88
  39. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Yes, this is what i have observed.
     
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  40. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Let's see. In the course of 1 set with a score of 6-4, you would serve 5 games. In those 5 games, let say the average number of points is 6. So, 5 games with 6 points is 30 attempts at a first serve. You make 50% of 30 1st serve attempt for 15 first serves. Based on bolded statement above, you would average about 7 to 8 untouchable serves - aces. I have been playing tennis between 4.0 and 5.0 levels for roughly 35 years and have never seen a player at 4.0 level who average 7 aces per set. Roger Federer normally does not average 7 aces per set. Even guys who were borderline 4.5 players did not average 7 aces per set.

    If you can average 95 MPH, move it to the 3 sections of the box, and get over 50% in the box, you have a very good 1st service for even 5.0 level.

    Plus, I very, very, very rarely see what I would call a good server who results to the push 2nd serve with no spin. Almost all of the guys who hit this 2nd serve basically have no serve. My experience is if you have a pretty decent 1st serve with reasonable spin, placement and power, then you will also have a pretty good 2nd serve. A good motion is a good motion.

    Sorry, I am not trying to rain on your parade but you might want to take a realistic view at your serve. Also, you must have at least a reasonable 2nd serve which means very low number of DFs with spin, placement and some degree of power and depth.
     
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  41. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    This thread is comedic gold...
     
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  42. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I must sound like a broken record every time I chime into these serve speed threads... it just gets me how crazily people overestimate speed.

    I couldn't resist responding to this gem though:

    So, we have a 3.5 gal with a 120mph serve.
    Now as it happens, there is a little tournament called Wimbledon going on right now. I'm actually watching Kirilenko / Robson as I type... it's early in the second set. IBM match stats so far:

    Maria Kirilenko (RUS) Laura Robson (GBR)
    105 MPH Fastest serve 110 MPH
    99 MPH Average 1st serve speed 102 MPH
    89 MPH Average 2nd serve speed 88 MPH
    4 of 5 = 80 % Net points won 6 of 8 = 75 %

    So yes, of course, a 3.5 lady has a 120mph serve...
     
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  43. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    That's what kills me about serve threads. If a person is a 3.0/3.5 with a serve that fast and consistent, he/she should never ever get broken at that level. If the player remains a 3.0/3.5 with such a killer serve, their game is so otherwise flawed that nothing could ever fix it. Implausible to me at best and I am just a rookie.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
    #93
  44. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,127
    There are only a handful of women in the world with a 120mph serve, so clearly the claims of the poster are hogwash...
     
    #94
  45. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    491
    You are overthinking this man. I am not a good server. I am a strong x D1 football player that hammers the ball with a frying pan grip. That's it.

    I think I had 20 or so aces when I beat the guy in the 4.0 tournament 6-1 6-0.

    Wait, what's an ace?

    Is an Ace where an opponent does not get a racket on it or just if the ball does not come back over your side of the net? if the ball hits the guys racket and goes over the fence is that an ace?

    if it's a ball that the opponent does not get a racket on, yes, you pegged it about right. About 5-8 aces per set.

    When I get on a roll or start taking two 1st serves it's well above ten per set.

    You need to consider, I am serving the ball 40 to 50 mph faster than what the 3.0s are use to seeing.

    It's not that hard to fathom.
     
    #95
  46. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    I would say we've reached the point that if there isn't video then there is no credibility to theses claims...
     
    #96
  47. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    491
    Dude, please. Here we go again.

    Another poster--who has no love for me--has verified that I can put the ball in the 110 to 115 range.

    I should post a video of me playing. I am sick and tired of having my threads hijacked by naysayers who know nothing about the poster making judgments based upon their own limitations

    Peep this, I am in intensive language training now. I have to spend 4 hours a day outside of class to be at the B- level. This woman in my class, who is currently number 5, spends 0-30 minutes outside of class to be at the A- level.

    Basically, she does not have to study--aside form vocab and grammar--to pick up the language where i do.

    I see people like this pretty often in my circles, but they are a rarity..the same goes for a strong x d1 football player who can hammer the ball fast....they are out there although you might no see them where u live.
     
    #97
  48. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    491
    Dude, leave my thread please. You have nothing credible or constructive to contribute.

    I know your point: it's impossible for Aurellian to serve that hard at 3.0. he can't serve 105 and is lying.

    Ok..next..Thanks.
     
    #98
  49. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

    Joined:
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    As I said, comedic gold. And yes, do post a video, please!
     
    #99
  50. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
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    Waiting on the video, happy to be proven wrong...
     

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