Distinctions and Differences: The observations of 3.0 bounding to 4.0

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Aurellian, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    True. It is quite funny how skewed people's perceptions are on serve speeds. It may FEEL like it is that fast, but in reality ... well, you know.
     
  2. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    I don't serve that fast all the time. Sometimes it's very streaky...although it's about 50% now..in some sets I want the work so i will dink it in and just play defense.

    It's not reliable or steady all the time. I am a very streaky type of of athlete. many people exist like me. Especially with a game that relies on power and speed instead of placement and skill.
     
  3. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    if you care so much put some skin the game....put down 24 bucks and I will post within the week.
     
  4. tennixpl

    tennixpl Rookie

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    yes please. easy enough to do with any cell phone camera.
    oh and someone around probably has a radar gun you can borrow.

    a lot of 3.0/3.5 slap serve with all arm... they can get it going quite fast. fast being 110 'maybe' on that perfect serve.

    i previously played some D2 college team players, one who was a serve and forehand guy. they did measure service speed (in practice) and his fastest serve he said was 120. so on average he was probably hitting 105-110 as a big serve.
    even as a iffy 4.0 back then it wasn't all that hard to adjust to the serve when he didn't get it out wide, bunting a fast ball give a fast ball back, without placement it is not really all that special. and quite frankly a lot of strokes get developed to hit back pace while they are not developed to hit slower balls with spin while on the move, a well placed 65-80 mph serve with kick or spin away is more effective and a lot more easy to replicate.

    now if OP wants to keep his game the way it is cool, we all have our own styles, but if he wants to improve he will have to switch grips for the serve to learn to add topspin.

    oh and a 120 mph 3.0 woman............we are still talking planet earth right or did a former WNBA player pick up a racquet for a hit one day?

     
  5. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    You've posted like 50 times in your own thread, clearly you on some level care already if people believe you, and most of them don't. If you want to rectify that, posting a video is the way. Don't expect anyone to send you $ though.
     
  6. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    That's all I am saying, a a dude slap serving 105 to 110.

    There are 1 to 3 at every level that can do this.

    What i disagree with you and the rest of the conventional wisdom on is that its just so easy to block back. Hogwash.

    That was the same thing I was thinking about the woman who hit 120. It must have been some WNBA player just taking up tennis at the country club.
     
  7. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Sorry dude, if you want me to take the time to make a video you need to donate 50 bucks to the charity of my choice.
     
  8. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    sorry dude, if you want people to believe you (you can say you don't care but people who don't care don't post 50 times about it), you're going to have to offer proof.
     
  9. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    50 bucks to the charity of my choice. if my vid is bs I will drop 100 to the charity of your's:)

    what say you...as Dick Nixon says, time to __ or get off the pot
     
  10. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    This is nothing personal. I don't know you, have never seen you serve, and don't know what your actual serve speed is. I know you've claimed to be able to max out at 115mph, and be at 50% serving 105ish. Also you've described your grip and service motion.

    I think we can agree that pro players are likely to be no less physically gifted than you are, and then of course they have the benefit of superb technique, mechanics, and training.

    Here are the relevant stats from the Nadal / Darcis match yesterday:

    Rafael Nadal (ESP) Steve Darcis (BEL)
    80 of 119 = 67 % 1st serves in 72 of 121 = 60 %
    123 MPH Fastest serve 122 MPH
    112 MPH Average 1st serve speed 113 MPH
    90 MPH Average 2nd serve speed 93 MPH

    So taking your claims at face value, there is just a single-digit speed difference between you and one of the best to ever play the game in terms of serve speed top end (123 vs 115) and average (112 vs 105).

    Take a moment to consider that what you're saying implies that with all the additional technique, training and practice that these top players have, they can barely out-serve you, even with the limitations of your grip and service motion.

    I'm not pointing this out to be critical. And it is certainly possible that you're able to serve much faster than I can. But please, let's have at least some degree of realism.
     
  11. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    I don't care enough to continue. I'd rather pick my own charities to donate whatever I'm going to donate to. Maybe someone else will take you up. I'm done, have a nice day.
     
  12. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    I'll paypal you $50 if you can show me your 110mph serve with a hammer grip. I do not believe this is humanly possible even from a top pro.
     
  13. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    I bet this guy can serve a 115 MPH muscle serve too:

    [​IMG]
     
  14. tennismonkey

    tennismonkey Semi-Pro

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    i think he said frying pan grip. essentially a semi-western forehand grip. hammer grip is a continental grip.

    i'd just like to see the results - and leave out the money part. i'm curious to see if someone who is just brute force strong can forego technique of any kind and just slam a tennis ball with a frying pan grip in excess of 100mph as verified by a radar gun. that would be fun to see!
     
  15. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Ok. Have a blessed day.
     
  16. Adles

    Adles Rookie

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    I'm not surprised this guy is using a Head, but are those Stan Smiths?!?! I didn't know they were sold in Moria...
     
  17. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    You are confusing tennis skill with athleticism. It's like saying Brock Lesner will be a good football player. I am sure that I could run faster, lift more weights, have a greater shuttle score,and had a higher vertical than most of the top 100 players when I was playing football in college. heck, I bet that still holds true today for 2/4 of them.

    I am sure I am a superior athlete than that dude who beat Nadal. I am sure he could beat me with a frying pan in his left hand in tennis.

    Tennis skill and athleticism are not the same things. It;s funny when people say I move well on the court. i don't. I am very fast and athletic (relatively) but don't move well in the tennis sense.


    But this does not make one a good tennis layer. Monfils rips 100+ mph forehands and is prolly the bets pure athlete to ever pick u a racket but he is not the best tennis player by far.

    You also miss the point: the pro players are not trying to smash the ball as hard as they can. that's not their game. For one it would not be nearly as effective and second, their bodies could not sustain it. they would rip up their rotator cuffs by 19.

    I dont hit 1000s of tennis balls each week. I play three times a week against dudes who sit in offices 10 hours each day and play two times each week:)

    We are not pros and we should not compare ourselves to them. So yes, if u met Mike Tyson in the ocatagon (or any of us for that matter) he would smash our heads in. Full stop. if St. Pierre or any other UFC fighter met him they would pummel him. For us his power would be too much. For St Pierre it does not matter.
     
  18. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    I can't promise a radar gun. The best I can do is tennis app on cell phone.

    i also don't promise 115; just excess of 100 mph.
     
  19. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    Hmm, now you're backpedaling. Like I said. Hit 50 1st serves in a row, both deuce and add side, with a radar gun. See how many you get in, and how many of those are 100+mph. You'll be utterly disappointed.

    Waiting on a video.
     
  20. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I don't believe I'm confusing anything... I just pointed out that Nadal for example was hitting 67% @ 112mph, and you are claiming 50% @ 105mph.

    If you believe that you are so much of a superior athlete to Nadal so as to have serve stats approaching his while obviously not having anywhere near the same amount of technique, training, or skill... well, only you know that for sure.
     
  21. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Could not do it 50 times in a row. you win bro. you got me...lol.

    I cant hit 50 serves in a row if your mom's life depended on it. heck, 3/5 and I would be claiming victory...lol... 6 out of 10 and I would call it a week.

    I will do it for charity. 50 to my choice if I get i 4-6/10 over 100, a 25 bonus if I hit one over 110 in, and 100 to charity if I fail.

    Come on man, it's for the kids.

    I got an even better idea. A charity match between me and TTwarrior.

    If you all can raise 500 bucks for a charity I will fly him out , put him up in the Strip, and play a full set with him.

    That would be very funny.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  22. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Nadal, no. I think he could be pro soccer player. I think he is a solid athlete.

    The funny this I that I am not that good of an athlete. Bettter than 92% of the rec tennis players, yea, but not like I could play in the NFL or anything.

    I think we are off in no man's land.

    Not sure how much longer I will continue to post if no one takes up my charity challenge.
     
  23. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Goal posts they are a shifting. No one is expecting you to hit 50 serves in a row at 105mph in the court, but you have continually claimed this tremendous success in acing (or hitting service winners) people numerous times with your tremendous serving prowess. Hitting 50 serves is about the number one would hit in a match and you should be able to hit 50 serves with the speed you claim and have a respectable % landing in the box (you've claimed about 50% I think?).

    If you can do it, more power to you and we'd all like to see it. Since you've spent a large amount of your time claiming that this is your reality, I don't see why any of us should be subsidizing you demonstrating this. We know this isn't reality until you demonstrate to us that it is reality...
     
  24. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Agreed! And the 3.0 woman with the 120mph.
     
  25. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    I didn't expect you to make all 50 obviously. Your claim is that your 1st serve is 105-115mph, with 50% success rate. That means you should be able to hit 100+ 25/50. Looking forward to seeing you do that. It will be cool video, and you'll shut up all the naysayers. Just do 25 serves on each side (add/deuce). It shouldn't take you <20min. You should film from the side of the court, high enough to see the lines, so we can see the whole court and analyse the video for serve speed/trajectory. If you satisfy these requirements, I'll donate $50 to a legit non-profit of your choice.

    Also, by Strip do you LV strip? If so, I'll have to setup a match with you next time I go there :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  26. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Agreed, I think we are off on a tangent, and I'm not going to harp on it any more beyond this post. It's was not my intention to critique you, but rather to point out the apparent contradiction:

    You don't think you are as good of an athlete as Nadal.
    You obviously lack his technique, training, and skill.
    And yet you maintain that you're able to serve at levels that are very close to approaching Nadal's, in terms of average 1st serve speed and percentage.

    My personal belief is not that you are knowingly making exaggerated claims, but rather that you genuinely don't know how to correctly measure or judge serve speed, and have been misled by others.
     
  27. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    +1

    Very well said and the nicest most charitable reading of the threat.
     
  28. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    We can use something like this to estimate your service speed:
    http://www.donthireddy.us/tennis/speed.html

    Given inherent errors in this measurement method, we'll accept anything over 95mph.

    Although, I have to say, I have no problems returning <100mph serve if I know it's coming and if placement is predictable, and that's true for many 4.0+ players. So, you'll have to be hitting the serve in different locations (left/right) in the box to show that you can hit aces. But, that's not related to the challenge, just a side note :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  29. robert

    robert Rookie

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    I don't know if Aurellian can serve 115mph or not. But I know there is an 3.5 guy can do 130mph. So Aurellian's claim isn't impossible. Also he is former D1 football player who is a superior athlete than most of tennis players since only top athletes play football, basketball and second tier play tennis.

    I think Aurellian's point is that he serves at 115mph with all his energy. But Nadal didn't serve 123mph with all his energy. So Nadal may be able to serve 160mph if he tried his best.
     
  30. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    There is no way that the 3.5 guy can do 130mph either. A small fraction of serving is about strength. To get to these type of speeds you need perfect coordination of wrist snap, shoulder rotation, hit turn and leg motion. You just can't do this without the proper form.
     
  31. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    Haha, you're tripping, 160mph? Trust me, he'd do it if you could, at least a few times. I don't think he could break 140, even if he tried.

    As for Aurellian, I am not disputing he can hit 115mph, if he's lucky, I just don't think he can hit >100mph with any consistency, with a poor service motion, fried pan grip. Maybe 25% at best, but I even doubt that.
     
  32. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    May I respectfully point out that 123mph was Nadal's highest speed in that match; his average 1st serve was 112mph.

    You'd have to think that at least one point during the match, Nadal would go for a big serve... obviously not all the time, but at least once?

    Perhaps Nadal could have gone for a bit more and hit 130mph... but really I think that's about it.

    About that 3.5 guy you know that can serve at 130mph... perhaps it's time to recalibrate your radar gun?

    As for the other part of your post... so let me get this straight... you think Nadal is not a superior athlete because top athletes play football and basketball rather than tennis? Eh, ok.
     
  33. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I guess we can repeat this over and over, but some people are just not going to get it...
     
  34. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Sounds fair. I don't want my face shown though. I come across as very obnoxious on message boards and cant have that persona linked to the real me.

    yeah, I play in Vegas a good part of the year and would love to play you when in town. Just give me a hoot and I will pick you up and take you the club...lunch is on me.

    I don't play full matches. My baba from Belgrade is with me and I need to go home to tend to her after the first set..especially if I beat a higher rated player like you. You should see how fast I scurried of the court when I took that 4.5 player in a set.
     
  35. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Yes, no one near Deion or Bo's claibre of an athlete plays tennis. I doubt Monfils would make a NBA roster.


    I once saw Maurice Jones Drew dunk a basketball at 5 ft 6 in college. He also benches over 300 pounds. Ferrer is solid, but not in MJD's category.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  36. Adles

    Adles Rookie

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    Is Joakim that much of a better athlete than his dad? I don't think so.
     
  37. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    What did Goebbels say?

    You can post whatever you want, but it does not make it true.
     
  38. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Exactly. Amen!
     
  39. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Anyway, I will give it a shot. Can't promise today or tomorrow but within the week.

    I am glad that we all reached a catharsis and are friends.

    Way to come together men!
     
  40. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    um nadal being able to crack a 160 mph serve would be a negative. goran would consistently hit serves high 140s low 150s (using the new way of measuring serve speed) probably the fastest server in tennis history.
     
  41. buruan

    buruan New User

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    Wow. I mean WOW.
    Athleticism is much more than strength.
    D1 college ball is no Joke, but its still amateur level.

    Serve Speed has nothing to do with strength, this is not shot put.
    Racquet Head speed is where the pace is coming from, and that comes from proper technique, legs, torso, arms, shoulders, pronation, the whole kinetic chain.

    Being strong does not equal a fast serve.

    A 3.0 Woman at 120 ,a 3.5 man serving 130, Nadal serving 160 if he only tried.
    A 3.0 taking a set off a 4.5.

    I don't post much on here but these claims are significant outliers to the regular lunacy around here to warrant another post.
     
  42. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    Nice, one set is alright, since free lunch is involved :)

    If you put the camera high on the fence behind you, then you can avoid showing your face. We've got to see that frying pan grip though :)
     
  43. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Holy cow. What a sentence.

    This thread is entertaining I'll give it that.
     
  44. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    1. You don't have to be 6' tall to hit 125 mph first serves. MichaelChang, at his last or next to last FrenchOpen, hit well over 125 on ONE serve. Chang was closer to 5'7" than his posted "5'9".
    2. Playing tennis for 39 years allows me to see some wierd things. YES, I"ve seen C level, or 3.5 level players, serving well over 125 mph. And they got it in once every 10 tries.
    3. LowellBarnhardt, at just under 6' tall, won the 1978 GoldenGateway Fast serve competition in the amatuer class with a 129 something. He was a B, or 4.5 level player. If you look at who came in second, it would be a guy named Lee, who is 5'11" and 140lbs at the time, at 129.4. THREE of my seven tries went over 120mph, 4 didn't go in. I was still technically a C player at the time, as they didn't upgrade my rating after I won a big draw C tourney the week before.
    4. Nadal doesn't want to hit over 125, because that would lower his percentange, and his game depends on attrition of the opponent, so he needs his first serves to go IN, putting more pressure on his opponent by not giving them a second serve chance.
    5. Little guys like Hewitt, and Kohlshreiber have been timed in the lowest 130's on their FASTEST serves.
    6. One JohanKriek, all 5'8" of him, was hitting first serves faster than the entire Wilson PRO mens team back in the '80's.
     
  45. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    That's questionable. But a few of the big guys could hit 145 routinely if they wanted to. i don't think speed matters so much at the pro level, but I do think they could serve faster if that's all they wanted to do.
     
  46. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Lee seems like a very good player back in the day. I bet you used technique and not brute force though
     
  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    While brute force is nice to use in my varsity football days in high school (starting OLB all 3 years, one for JV, two for Varsity), some technique is also nice to alternate in.
    Serving fast is similar to whipping a whip. Anyone can do it, but a few can really go supersonic with accuracy and consistency.
    Quickness helps lots, as does power.
     
  48. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    pros have played enough matches that they all have served there fastest serves in a match before. if you looked in the top 100 maybe you can find 3-4 players who never serve 123 or more. id say there is around 5-10 in the top 100 who have hit 140.


    also i will have a dig at the flat serve debate. berdych has a rather flat serve for a pro (he uses more of a forehand grip as well). he can serve 140 so it doesn't seem to really hurt his mphs, now he misses a few more than some other top guys. but he easily is a top 10 server in the world. just some food for you guys getting on ops grip.
     
  49. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Look on the bright side.

    At least the serve speed exaggeration in rec tennis no longer limited to the fellas! :)

    I consider myself a poor 4.0 returner who is especially troubled by pace, and I have never had a 3.5 woman serve me out of my shoes with 120 mph. If she does slam a good one, the next one will be a DF. Just gotta be patient . . .
     
  50. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    160 for Nadal isn't questionable, it's completely absurd. 140 for him is questionable (don't think he's hit 140 in his career, a quick and sloppy google search seems to support this).

    The fact that you seem to be 20mph off in your assessment of what Nadal could do makes it that much easier to believe you could be significantly off in you assessment of your own serve speed.
     

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