Djoker the current benchmark of all round tennis?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by JSummers, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. JSummers

    JSummers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    221
    While Federer may have better attacking game, Nadal with impenetrable defense, Djoker may have most balanced game as of late. Murray is close but slightly lacking in attack.

    Here's how I'll rate them in terms of Attack/Defense/Movements per their late appearance.

    Djoker: 8/8/8
    Federer: 9/7/7
    Nadal: 7/9/9
    Murray: 7/8/8
     
    #1
  2. SStrikerR

    SStrikerR Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,050
    Location:
    Not Fantasy Land
    977 is the biggest number there. Fed wins
     
    #2
  3. dirtballer

    dirtballer Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    955
    All round? Novak won 3 points at the net during the whole match yesterday.
     
    #3
  4. HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA love that comment!!!
     
    #4
  5. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,542
    Location:
    Augusta, GA
    yeah while he has a good game...he does not at the net

    so all around can not really be applied.

    Rafa has a better net game than Novak

    I think Defense is his strongest play...with his agility and spiderman like returns....and not to mention fights off match points like no one else.
     
    #5
  6. djokovic2008

    djokovic2008 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,697
    Where he excels above all with maybe murray too is that he does not care which side he hits off, when your so strong off both wings you cannot be broken down.
     
    #6
  7. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    892
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    I think it's better to call him an all-round baseliner. He has both offense and defense from the baseline but doesn't have the net skills to be removed from the typical baseliner category.
     
    #7
  8. merwy

    merwy Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,161
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Are you giving Federer a 7 for movement? What are you, stupid?

    Funny how in your eyes movement = defense. Federer has got maybe the best footwork of them all. Murray's movement sucks and you should be ashamed to rate his above Federer's.

    ETA: Oh and I see that you've given Nadal a 7 for attack. Just because he has a defensive playing style doesn't mean he can't attack. He puts immense pressure on his opponents with his topspin and I think even Federer once said that nobody can do more with an easy ball than Nadal. i.e. he never fails to hit winners on easy shots.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
    #8
  9. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    9,745
    Djokovic is starting to be the benchmark of the near perfect baseliner.

    Good offense, OUTSTANDING defense, can do special shots(especially the dropper), has a decent lob, terrific returner. It's very hard to put anything past him.

    However, he does have trouble with overheads and his net play is pretty mediocre so I guess him staying away from the net is a smart move.
     
    #9
  10. BHud

    BHud Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,297
    If we add "fortitude" to the characteristics, there would only be 3 players up for consideration (even though it may have taken Novak a while to develop it, he certainly has it now)...the red-headed stepchild would be out!
     
    #10
  11. Sim

    Sim Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    431
    If anything, Federer should be the benchmark of an all-round player (and I'm not a Fed fan "primarily"). All-round player should include baselining as well as volleys and especially overheads which Djokovic is not so great at.

    He has a great forehand, good enough backhand (of course this is disputable amongst TT...), and great volleys.

    Defense and movement are superb though defense isn't quite as good as the other top 3 as far as retrieving is concerned. Fed also has the best offense. When I think of another all-round player, I think of Tsonga, but he's lacking in many more areas unlike Fed.

    To me, I see Djokovic as a baseliner primarily. That is what he's best at. At times, he is very uncomfortable at net, and if you want to be called the benchmark all-round player, you better know how to S&V as well.
     
    #11
  12. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,912
    Fed is the benchmark of an all-rounder.
    Djokovic a baseliner.
    Nadal a counterpuncher.
    Murray a ...pusher...
     
    #12
  13. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    933
    2nd that!:)
     
    #13
  14. Spider

    Spider Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,247
    Location:
    UK
    Djokovic is an absolute beast from the baseline and I think Murray is the only one, if any, who could probably win more rallies against Djokovic.

    It takes a toll to win a point against him.
     
    #14
  15. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    933
    I wouldn't call Djoker as a baseliner. In fact, all 3 of them are more of counterpuncher (first) and baseliner (second). They do best when they face an attack-style as Fed because that gives them some target or triggers some reactions from them. When they faced each other, and were forced to initiate the attack themselves, they seem not to be as comfortable IMO. Not saying they cannot attack, don't get me wrong.
     
    #15
  16. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    933
    Murray? How about Rafa? Already forgotten the AO final this year, and FO final this year too? Not saying I'm a fan of Djoker or Rafa, but just put things in perspective.
     
    #16
  17. Spider

    Spider Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,247
    Location:
    UK
    Nadal cannot beat Djokovic from a pure baseline rally perspective. At least not a vast majority of the rallies.

    Clay is the only surface Nadal stands a chance against Djokovic.
     
    #17
  18. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    17,384
    Location:
    Poland, eating bigos and ┼╝eberka
    x10

    /thread
     
    #18
  19. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    933
    And Murray can?
    I just think Rafa has given Djoker a good (or better) run for his money than Murray. I'm not saying Rafa WON them all, but if I have to rank Murray and Rafa based on their defensive prowess, Rafa will be slightly ahead. That may be because of Rafa's mental attitude.
     
    #19
  20. Spider

    Spider Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,247
    Location:
    UK
    Murray's slice puts Djokovic in a lot more uncomfortable position than Nadal's topspin. Murray is able to stay with Djokovic for a long time in most rallies. That can be seen in the last three matches they have played this year.

    Like I said, away from clay, from a pure baseline rally perspective, Murray is the only player who comes close to Djokovic. The rest stand very little chance to win the vast majority of the rallies with Djokovic.
     
    #20
  21. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,912
    Djoker initiates attack the best out of the three, that's for sure. And I don't think it's fair to limit the comparison to matchups between the top four.

    If you compare Nadal or Djokovic to Fed, then of course they will seem like counterpunchers. But truth is, Djoko and Nad and sometimes even Murray can be pretty aggressive against other not so high ranked pro players. Just shows you the gap in level between even the pro players really.
     
    #21
  22. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    933
    True, but that's what I also said in my previous post "Not saying they cannot attack, don't get me wrong."
     
    #22
  23. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,206
    This sums it up.
     
    #23
  24. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,206
    I would think the benchmark is Federer reaching the finals of all four grand slams at least five times.
     
    #24
  25. Djokodal Fan

    Djokodal Fan Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    If I were to vote for overall better game it has to be Fed.

    the guy can attack at will, very soft hands at net and no so bad defense. He may not be up there with Djoker or Nadal as far as Defence is concerned, but his offence and Volley skills easily puts him ahead!
     
    #25
  26. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    13,683
    Location:
    Manchester, UK.
    Just out of interest. If Murray is just a 'pusher', is he the most successful 'pusher' the tour has ever seen or are there any other players you think of as just 'pushers' who have been more successful?
     
    #26
  27. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I think in the confines of the current and modern game he is. He is equally strong off both forehand and backhand which is definitely not true of Federer, not true of Murray, not true of current Nadal. He has become almost equally good at offense and defense, still slightly better on offense. He is the best returner out there, and his serve is now also a weapon. He is equally good at hitting crosscourt or down the line, his court positioning is impeccable, his defense to offense transition is sublime, and understands all the nuances of the current game. Despite not being a good volleyer he knows how to transition to the net effectively when needed, and still usually wins most points when he does come in. The only things he lacks are things that are almost irrelevant in todays game, feel and touch shots, great volleying skills, really dont matter much today anyway.
     
    #27
  28. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,206
    Has he ever serve and volleyed?
     
    #28
  29. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Why should he. It isnt effective today anyway. Federer rarely does either, he just works his way to net during the point which is the most you can do effectively on todays courts unless you have a Sampras like serve and volley.
     
    #29
  30. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2012
    Messages:
    933
    Murray's slice perhaps, but then Fed's slice is almost if not even more effective than Murray, no?
    What I have in mind is the AO final 2012 lasting over 5-6hr between Rafa and Djoker. Going in time a bit earlier, although Djoker won the other 3GS in 2011 against Rafa, he didn't exactly blow Rafa off the courts either. So when you said, "the rest stand very little chance to win... against Djokovic", I still believe Rafa had a better chance than Murray no matter what the surface is. Today's picture is different though with Rafa being injured for a half of the year, and Murray with one GS title under his belt and becoming stronger mentally (I think!), Murray may edge ahead of Rafa starting from now.
     
    #30
  31. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville
    "benchmark for all around tennis"? Who Djokovic? The guy who never approaches the net, never wins any easy points and has to contort himself 10 feet behind the baseline to make defensive gets is an all-rounder?

    Funniest thing I read all day. :)

    His call to greatness are his stretch returns, defensive gets and that backhand DTL. A very good baseliner but I would not call him an all-rounder.
     
    #31
  32. JSummers

    JSummers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    221
    Thankyou. Exactly how I see it, hence the post.
     
    #32
  33. Biscuitmcgriddleson

    Biscuitmcgriddleson Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    1,098
    The only part of Novak's game that is better than Federer's peak for peak is the backhand. At their peak, Federer's FH, Serve, Volley, and Movement were better than Novak's. I'd say that Defense is more or less equal, but I'd take Federer's since his Movement appears to be less taxing than Novak's.
     
    #33
  34. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,418
    As a fan of both I don't think even Federer was as good defensively as Djokovic. The overall movement is close (what with Feds peerless footwork), but not the defense.

    As for the thread, I think Novak is an all-around baseliner, no doubt. But all-around player? Tough to say. In this era there it's hard to tell. Federer fits that profile more, IMO.
     
    #34
  35. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,418
    Also lets not forget, Novak has evolved a lot as a player. In his earlier days he fit the mould of an aggressive baseliner. Seldom would he defensive skills be praised then (compared to now).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dav_maKdV4

    Take a look at that match. Look at how early he takes the ball, how he runs Nadal from side to side and pounds short balls that are to his FH side. Looks like a completely different player.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
    #35
  36. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    31,084
    Location:
    New York
    I'm sure he has. Nadal has too. But no one does it regularly these days because passings are too good. Even at the end of Edberg's career, it didn't work that well anymore. Players do whatever gives them the win. This is not about showing off certain skills but about winning matches. That's how one gets points and money and that's what pro tennis is about.
     
    #36
  37. hersito

    hersito Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    399
    He is clearly a baseliner, not an all around, he barely goes to the net and when he does his smash and his volley are not very good. The benchmark is federer no doubt.
     
    #37
  38. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,705
    Exactly, I believe it was 3 of 9, which doesn't scream "all round tennis".
     
    #38
  39. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    31,084
    Location:
    New York
    It may have been true of this particular match but I've seen him show excellent touch at net in plenty of other matches.
     
    #39
  40. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686
    Can Djesus heal the sick? Make the blind see? Walk on water? He must have made it into the bible with as much worshipping nonsense like this thread that have been started on here about him since he barely eeked out a match against an error prone 31 year old Fed the other day. :lol: I bet the guy has a halo,glowing aura,and angels singing wherever he goes as well.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF4AeHX4R6s
     
    #40
  41. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,706
    Djokovic is the benchmark for players today because he has no weaknesses. For a player to beat them have to have an undeniably strong weapon, they can't just focus on attacking his weaknesses.
     
    #41
  42. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,541
    Location:
    Sweden
    Federer is the superior mover on grass. On HCs it's close.
     
    #42
  43. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    31,084
    Location:
    New York

    Except for the "feel and touch" part (which I have seen him demonstrate at times), I agree with everything. Very well expressed too.
    His serve was a big weapon in 2007 but it all fell apart in 2009/2010, so it's a skill he had to recover almost from scratch and it seems he's getting it back to where it used to be at its best. It will never be as effective as the Fed serve at its peak for instance but it's better than the other top players'.
    The major difference between his first seasons and his recent ones is how much he's improved his defensive skills. He has progressed regularly in that area and it's paid off spectacularly. (By contrast, Fed has never tried to bring his defensive skills to the level of his offensive skills, he's always relied more on his offensives one and kept saying in interviews that attacking is more important). It's a good thing to bring up "understanding" because I think Djoko (and his camp) had great insight in the fact that Djoko's achievements would remain limited if he didn't maximize his defensive skills in the current context. They couldn't have been more right.
     
    #43
  44. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,915
    Nah, out of the top four, he is the worst in that sense.
     
    #44
  45. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,915
    LOL!

    Seriously, he just eeked out a win over old man Federer (a well-deserved win but hardly a slaughter) and people are ready to canonize him! :)
     
    #45
  46. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686


    I know. Lol. Look at all the **** threads started by his worshippers in the last 2 days. It would make one think he turned water into wine and can perform various miracles. :lol:
     
    #46
  47. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,915
    #47
  48. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686
    #48
  49. JSummers

    JSummers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    221
    Well it's not just one match, but 2 years of excellence, edging out of the top crop. Look at it objectively, Djoker became the first person since Fed (04-07) to retain consecutive year-end #1s. Not even Nadal could do it.

    Before that, in the last 20 years, only Lleyton and Sampras did it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ATP_number_1_ranked_singles_players

    One can't help but notice there is a change of guards.
     
    #49
  50. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    31,084
    Location:
    New York
    A change of guard that some people clearly didn't want to see happening...
     
    #50

Share This Page