Djokovic greater than Lendl & Emerson?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by LazyNinja19, Apr 8, 2014.

?

Who's greater (as of now)?

  1. Ivan Lendl

    84.0%
  2. Novak Djokovic

    16.0%
  1. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    In the initial list of Top 100 Greatest players of all time by Tennis Channel, Djokovic was placed at #40.

    But interestingly, I found its Wikipedia page and it has been edited to place Novak at #17, while Emerson sits at #18, & Ivan Lendl at #19 (both being pushed back by 1 spot).
    I find it a bit strange, since Lendl has way more accomplishments in every single department, than Djoko (as of now). And so does Emerson.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_of_All_Time

    [​IMG]

    What's your take on this?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #1
  2. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    Djokovic shouldn't even be on that list.
     
    #2
  3. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Anyone can edit wikipedia, I don't see any significance to it really. Emerson is placed far to high anyway considering his achievements were all amateur. But Lendl is still well ahead.
     
    #3
  4. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    Emerson, yes. Lendl, no.
     
    #4
  5. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    It looks as if some Djokovic fan has edited the list to place their man a bit higher than his current achievements merit. Lendl is definitely ahead of him at the moment (8 Slams v 6).

    There is some justification for being placed ahead of Emerson considering that he won all his Slams as an amateur when many of his best contemporaries had already turned professional and were not allowed to compete with him!
     
    #5
  6. Seth

    Seth Hall of Fame

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    There's really no way of knowing.
     
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  7. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    The original Tennis Channel list has still put Emerson at one spot above Lendl though.

    Oh! I didn't know that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #7
  8. bjsnider

    bjsnider Professional

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    I don't know what the definition of greatness is, and neither does anyone else, so since there isn't an agreed-upon definition, it's pointless to debate it. It's also pointless to debate if something is "art" or not, since there's no objective definition of that term.
     
    #8
  9. Ramesh848

    Ramesh848 Banned

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    I know Djoko is better than Parera, don't care for rest!
     
    #9
  10. MonkeyBoy

    MonkeyBoy Professional

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    7 consecutive wins over Nadal not good enough for you?
     
    #10
  11. Egoista

    Egoista Professional

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    djocko will go down as one of the greats lendl cant be compared
     
    #11
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Far from Lendl yet
    Close to Emerson, maybe same echelon for singles
     
    #12
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Djokovic competition:Federer,old Roddick,Nadal and Murray
    Lendl's:Borg,Connors,Mac,Wilander,Becker,Edberg and young Agassi

    Oceanic miles of difference
     
    #13
  14. jm1980

    jm1980 Legend

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    This comparison is extremely disingenuous. Borg retired before Lendl started winning slams. Connors and Mac were past their prime when Lendl was peaking.

    And young Agassi is the worst, because we could easily include the next generation of greats as Djokovic's "competition."
     
    #14
  15. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic is greater than Emerson, who I rank around the same level as Courier and Vilas (i.e. a 4-slam champion in the Open Era). Many of the older posters rank him even lower than that.

    Lendl however is still greater than Djokovic by a fair margin. He has two more slams, but his other achievements are much greater than Djoker's.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #15
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lendl had also Vitas,Vilas,Cash,Noah as opposed to Delpo
    Reason Lendl not winning 81 Masters and Paris...Is exactly Borgie had not left
     
    #16
  17. FreeBird

    FreeBird Legend

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    >Emerson
    <Lendl

    Our one and only kiki. :lol:
     
    #17
  18. ScentOfDefeat

    ScentOfDefeat Hall of Fame

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    What's the criteria used to put Federer ahead of Graf? Apart from sexism, that is. Or indeed ahead of any of the greatest female players.
     
    #18
  19. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    Why they are even on the same list is beyond me. It's impossible to compare the relative achievements of ATP and WTA players.
     
    #19
  20. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I agree Lendl is far a head, but Djokovic is far above Emerson.
     
    #20
  21. sliceroni

    sliceroni Professional

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    So Lendl played in a weak era? I suppose Sampras and Federer did too, no? The weak era arguement didn't work against Federer because 2012 put that to rest. Lendl was a large contributer for putting power tennis on the map in the mid 80's.
     
    #21
  22. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Who has ever claimed that Lendl played in a weak era? :confused:

    In fact he faced greats all the way through.
     
    #22
  23. JMR

    JMR Semi-Pro

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    Who are the fanatics who inserted the "Pro Slams" column in that Wiki list? It's totally inapplicable to the great majority of the players, including all of the women, naturally. Even the phrase, "pro slams," is tendentious. I don't consider those tournaments the equivalent of the grand slam events.
     
    #23
  24. urundai

    urundai Professional

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    He isn't above Lendl, for sure.
     
    #24
  25. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Where is Pancho Gonzales?

    His absence or low listing on these rankings always shows the ignorance on display. Roy Emerson was a great player, but nobody would have him above Gonzales on the all-time list if they really knew their tennis facts.
     
    #25
  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The best players from the 1940s to 1960s were nearly all professionals, and thus weren't able to play in the 4 majors as we know them.

    See the list below for my opinion of the best player per year:

    My best player of the year in bold. Players not in bold are the best in the other pro/am code (pre-open era).

    My Best players per year (pre-open era)
    1877: Spencer Gore (amateur)
    1878: Frank Hadow (amateur)
    1879: John Hartley (amateur)
    1880: John Hartley (amateur)
    1881: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1882: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1883: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1884: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1885: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1886: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1887: Herbert Lawford (amateur)
    1888: Ernest Renshaw (amateur)
    1889: William Renshaw (amateur)
    1890: Willoughby Hamilton (amateur)
    1891: Wilfred Baddeley (amateur)
    1892: Wilfred Baddeley (amateur)
    1893: Joshua Pim (amateur)
    1894: Joshua Pim (amateur)
    1895: Joshua Pim (amateur)
    1896: Harold Mahony (amateur)
    1897: Reggie Doherty (amateur)
    1898: Reggie Doherty (amateur)
    1899: Reggie Doherty (amateur)
    1900: Reggie Doherty (amateur)
    1901: Arthur Gore (amateur)
    1902: Laurie Doherty (amateur)
    1903: Laurie Doherty (amateur)
    1904: Laurie Doherty (amateur)
    1905: Laurie Doherty (amateur)
    1906: Laurie Doherty (amateur)
    1907: Norman Brookes (amateur)
    1908: William Larned (amateur)
    1909: William Larned (amateur)
    1910: Tony Wilding (amateur)
    1911: Tony Wilding (amateur)
    1912: Tony Wilding (amateur)
    1913: Tony Wilding (amateur)
    1914: Tony Wilding (amateur)
    1915: Bill Johnston (amateur)
    1916: Richard Norris Williams (amateur)
    1917: Lindley Murray (amateur)
    1918: Lindley Murray (amateur)
    1919: Bill Johnston (amateur)
    1920: Bill Tilden (amateur), Romeo Acquarone (professional)
    1921: Bill Tilden (amateur), John CS Rendall (professional)
    1922: Bill Tilden (amateur), John CS Rendall (professional)
    1923: Bill Tilden (amateur), John CS Rendall (professional)
    1924: Bill Tilden (amateur), Albert Burke (professional)
    1925: Bill Tilden (amateur), Karel Kozeluh (professional)
    1926: Rene Lacoste (amateur), Karel Kozeluh (professional)
    1927: Rene Lacoste (amateur), Vinny Richards (professional)
    1928: Henri Cochet (amateur), Vinny Richards (professional)
    1929: Henri Cochet (amateur), Karel Kozeluh (professional)
    1930: Henri Cochet (amateur), Karel Kozeluh (professional)
    1931: Bill Tilden (professional), Ellsworth Vines (amateur)
    1932: Ellsworth Vines (amateur), Bill Tilden (professional)
    1933: Jack Crawford (amateur), Bill Tilden (professional)
    1934: Ellsworth Vines (professional), Fred Perry (amateur)
    1935: Ellsworth Vines (professional), Fred Perry (amateur)
    1936: Ellsworth Vines (professional), Fred Perry (amateur)
    1937: Ellsworth Vines (professional), Don Budge (amateur)
    1938: Ellsworth Vines (professional), Don Budge (amateur)
    1939: Don Budge (professional), Bobby Riggs (amateur)
    1940: Don Budge (professional), Don McNeill (amateur)
    1941: Fred Perry (professional), Bobby Riggs (amateur)
    1942: Don Budge (professional), Ted Schroeder (amateur)
    1943: Joseph Hunt (amateur), ??? (professional)
    1944: Bobby Riggs (professional), Frank Parker (amateur)
    1945: Bobby Riggs (professional), Frank Parker (amateur)
    1946: Bobby Riggs (professional), Jack Kramer (amateur)
    1947: Bobby Riggs (professional), Jack Kramer (amateur)
    1948: Jack Kramer (professional), John Bromwich (amateur)
    1949: Jack Kramer (professional), Pancho Gonzales (amateur)
    1950: Jack Kramer (professional), Budge Patty (amateur)
    1951: Jack Kramer (professional), Frank Sedgman (amateur)
    1952: Pancho Segura (professional), Frank Sedgman (amateur)
    1953: Jack Kramer (professional), Tony Trabert (amateur)
    1954: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Jaroslav Drobny (amateur)
    1955: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Tony Trabert (amateur)
    1956: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Lew Hoad (amateur)
    1957: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Lew Hoad (amateur)
    1958: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Ashley Cooper (amateur)
    1959: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Alex Olmedo (amateur)
    1960: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Neale Fraser (amateur)
    1961: Pancho Gonzales (professional), Roy Emerson (amateur)
    1962: Ken Rosewall (professional), Rod Laver (amateur)
    1963: Ken Rosewall (professional), Roy Emerson (amateur)
    1964: Rod Laver (professional), Roy Emerson (amateur)
    1965: Rod Laver (professional), Roy Emerson (amateur)
    1966: Rod Laver (professional), Fred Stolle (amateur)
    1967: Rod Laver (professional), John Newcombe (amateur)

    My best players per year (open era)
    1968: Rod Laver (professional)
    1969: Rod Laver (professional)
    1970: Rod Laver (professional)
    1971: John Newcombe (professional)
    1972: Stan Smith (amateur/professional) - turned professional in July 1972
    1973: Ilie Nastase (professional)
    1974: Jimmy Connors (professional)
    1975: Arthur Ashe (professional)
    1976: Jimmy Connors (professional)
    1977: Guillermo Vilas (professional)
    1978: Bjorn Borg (professional)
    1979: Bjorn Borg (professional)
    1980: Bjorn Borg (professional)
    1981: John McEnroe (professional)
    1982: Jimmy Connors (professional)
    1983: John McEnroe (professional)
    1984: John McEnroe (professional)
    1985: Ivan Lendl (professional)
    1986: Ivan Lendl (professional)
    1987: Ivan Lendl (professional)
    1988: Mats Wilander (professional)
    1989: Boris Becker (professional)
    1990: Stefan Edberg (professional)
    1991: Stefan Edberg (professional)
    1992: Jim Courier (professional)
    1993: Pete Sampras (professional)
    1994: Pete Sampras (professional)
    1995: Pete Sampras (professional)
    1996: Pete Sampras (professional)
    1997: Pete Sampras (professional)
    1998: Pete Sampras (professional)
    1999: Andre Agassi (professional)
    2000: Gustavo Kuerten (professional)
    2001: Lleyton Hewitt (professional)
    2002: Lleyton Hewitt (professional)
    2003: Andy Roddick (professional)
    2004: Roger Federer (professional)
    2005: Roger Federer (professional)
    2006: Roger Federer (professional)
    2007: Roger Federer (professional)
    2008: Rafael Nadal (professional)
    2009: Roger Federer (professional)
    2010: Rafael Nadal (professional)
    2011: Novak Djokovic (professional)
    2012: Novak Djokovic (professional)
    2013: Rafael Nadal (professional)
     
    #26
  27. jm1980

    jm1980 Legend

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    Mustard, are you immortal?
     
    #27
  28. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Novak is underrated on this board. He is right now a shade below Lendl, but with the next major, he will be on par and at 8 majors he is above Lendl, given that he accomplished during Nadal's peak and Federer's post peak, but still great tennis.
     
    #28
  29. sliceroni

    sliceroni Professional

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    Sorry, when ppl mentioned that Mac/Conners were on the decline when Lendl peaked I had the impression that that was the reason why he accomplished so much. As you said he had to go through some great champions, and dynamic champs not just baseline bashers.
     
    #29
  30. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nope ;)

    That trick of checking where Gonzales and Emerson are listed on these all-time lists is always very telling. Those who don't know the real facts will list Emerson high while Gonzales is nowhere to be seen, because they've seen Emerson on 12 majors and Gonzales on 2 majors and made the wrong conclusions completely. For them, it's like professional tennis didn't exist before the open era.
     
    #30
  31. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Djokovic is nowhere near Lendl at this stage in terms of career achievements. He's on the Wilander-Becker-Edberg level.
     
    #31
  32. JMR

    JMR Semi-Pro

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    Yes, everyone knows that. That does not answer my question about why the "pro slams" have been forced into that table. The Tennis Channel rankings are based on a variety of factors that were subjectively combined and weighted by the TC voters. There's no reason to list an individual statistic along with the overall rankings, unless that statistic applies to every one of the players ranked. The slams are really the only stat that qualifies, although I suppose some sort of "years at No. 1" figure could have been dreamed up. But "pro slams" are pretty useless as a metric here, because they apply to only a few of the players on the list. Why not add a column listing the number of WCT championships won while we're at it? That tournament was also very important in a bygone era.
     
    #32
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    JRM, If you ( as all official instances do) count the old Grand Slam tournaments (1877 to 1967) you twice must count the old Pro Grand Slam tournaments: In the pro events played the very best players, in the amateur events only the second echelon!

    Many experts agree that the Pro GS tournaments should be counted.
     
    #33
  34. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    If you aren't going to include the pro majors, why do you include amateur majors where the professionals couldn't play? There were no open era major equivalents before the open era. There was a pro-am split instead.
     
    #34
  35. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    JRM, If you consider and trust Tennis Channel you are an ignorant. If you additionally neglect the old pro events (1927 till 1967) you are an idiot. Please decide yourself!
     
    #35
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    LazyNinja19, My take on this is that there is no clue to open this thread and to present such a crap ranking list!

    The list is the worst ever made: Emerson ahead of Lendl, Rosewall!, Gonzalez!

    Rosewall and Gonzalez are among the four, five GOAT candidates but are ranked (among the male) No.14 and No.22 by those experts. Emerson is not really a very great player as he never was among the top three players in any year.

    Mixing male and female is another stupidity. Forget that nonsense list.

    Djokovic is much better than Emerson as he was a No.1 player and will probably be one again.
     
    #36
  37. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I can't speak much about Emerson but there is no way Djokovic is greater than Lendl at this point.
     
    #37
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lendl is farer from Djokovic than Djokovic is from Emerson, at least by this moment
     
    #38
  39. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I disagree. Emerson isn't even above a player like Hewitt in my estimation. Lendl has a lot of stuff over Djokovic e.g. #1 time, more slams, more majors (indoors) etc...But I don't rate Emerson very highly at all.
     
    #39
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Well Djokovic seems to be on his own way to join the list of open era indoor greats:Nastase,Mac,Lendl,Becker,Sampras and Federer.

    But indoor prior to 2000 is a different kind of indoors you know...well, like everything except RG
     
    #40
  41. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Which like i said is just a shade below McEnroe-Lendl level.

    Lendl could never get Wimbledon, whereas Novak , inspite of no major strength on grass won it.
     
    #41
  42. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    And yet Lendl had 3 RGs whereas Novak has only gotten to one final.

    Tennis achievements go beyond Wimbledon, and Lendl has quite a lot over Novak at the present.
     
    #42
  43. Vensai

    Vensai Professional

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    I still rank Ivan Lendl above Novak Djokovic.
     
    #43
  44. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    Literally the only argument for Djokovic above Lendl is his Wimbledon title. But this is rather short-sighted, especially given Wimbledon grass nowadays hardly resembles the grass of the 80's and 90's. As good as Nole is, he would get eaten alive in the faster/less consistent conditions of 80's/90's grass.
     
    #44
  45. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Say what?? Lendl was 7.5 years older than Becker, 6 years older than Edberg, 11 years older than Agassi.... and Borg and Mac were past their prime of retired by the time Lendl really got the ball rolling.

    That's sort like saying in 20 years time from now that Federer's peers were Dimitrov, Tomic, Thiem, Ivanisevic and Sampras.
     
    #45
  46. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    That list was first compiled when Nadal only had 10 majors and Serena had 13. Someone with a wikipedia account updates everytime a player wins a major without changing their placements in the list. It's probably TMF or some other Federer fanatic.
     
    #46
  47. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    I dont buy this one bit.

    Borg/Mcenroe/Connors won majors in 1970's and from 80-84.

    Lendl won his first major in 1984 and the others from 85-90.

    Lendl's true competition when he was winning were Wilander, Becker, Edberg and Pat Cash.

    Federer, Roddick, Nadal, Murray is much more competitive than Wilander, Becker, Edberg and Cash.
     
    #47
  48. RunDatGame

    RunDatGame Rookie

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    Who the hell is Don Budge??
     
    #48
  49. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Lendl/Djokovic

    The person who put Djokovic ahead of Lendl must have had a good reason. Let's analyse what that could have been.

    Slams won - Lendl 8, Djokovic 6 - Lendl wins

    Other Slam finals reached - Lendl 11, Djokovic 6 - Lendl wins

    Masters 1000 or Top 9 events outside of slams and season end finals - Lendl 22, Djokovic 18 - Lendl wins

    Weeks at number 1 - Lendl 270, Djokovic 101 - Lendl wins

    WTF wins - Lendl 5, Djokovic 3 - Lendl wins

    Longest winning streak? Lendl beats Djokovic

    Greater season winning %age - Lendl beats Djokovic

    Hmmm - what were their reasons again? It's just really hard to think of any reasons why they would have done this.

    Pancho Gonzales ranked 23rd man?

    Seriously, the voting panel must have been:

    1/ On Drugs when they were assessing this

    or

    2/ Have no real understanding of the history of tennis.


    I even think that Agassi himself would be shocked to be ranked 6 places higher than Lendl. Crazy stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #49
  50. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Very true, however Novak has 40% of his career still left and it is very possible he gets another 2-4 majors. If and when he does that, he will equal / surpass Lendl.
     
    #50

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