Djokovic was real #2 in 2008?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Gonzo_style, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    IMO Djokovic was second best player in 2008! What you guys think?

    On the ATP List Federer was only 10 points ahead of Djokovic.

    Both players won 1 Major, Federer had slightly better results in Majors, SF F F W, Djokovic W SF 2R SF

    Both players won 4 titles, and there is the biggest difference.

    Federer won Estoril, Halle, USO and Basel.

    Djokovic won AO, IW, Rome and TMC!

    Djokovic also had a better result at the Olympic Games in Beijing
     
    #1
  2. -RF-

    -RF- Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    2,211
    Location:
    London
    Marat Safin.
     
    #2
  3. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    Federer had far far better results than Djokovic, post-French Open. Federer made it to the finals of RG and Wimby and won US Open. Djokovic won the WTF.
    Djokovic did indeed have a far stronger first half of 2008. But his 2nd round elimination at Wimby and losing to Federer at USO (with Federer winning the USO) should give Federer the edge.
     
    #3
  4. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    No. The system is what it is. [​IMG]
     
    #4
  5. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    But Djokovic beat Federer in AO SF and won the title :confused:
     
    #5
  6. Jeffrey573639

    Jeffrey573639 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2012
    Messages:
    685
    Location:
    Sydney
    Slam Performance>>>>>>>>>>>Masters performance
     
    #6
  7. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    That's true but Federer had far better results in the remaining 3 Slams. RG, Wimby and USO....Federer got further in all 3 and won the USO too.
    So basically it's 1 title each + Federer edges it out with better performances at RG and Wimby.
    I don't mind if some people think Djokovic deserved to be #2 in 2008. It was a great year for him. He won 2 Masters (Indian Wells and Rome) which could give him the edge. Masters are far bigger tournaments than Halle, Estoril and Basel obviously.
     
    #7
  8. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    What about TMC?
     
    #8
  9. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Thanks Adam Savage...
     
    #9
  10. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    Yep, a feather in the cap for Djokovic. Like I said, Djokovic could deserve #2 in 2008. I'd have no problem with it. But his Wimbledon performance was unfortunate for somebody with his talent. Safin played the grass tournament of his life back then. I think Safin even said "Thank you Wimbledon for slowing down the grass!" :lol:
     
    #10
  11. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    was a great player? :confused:
     
    #11
  12. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Yeah, 3 cons losses vs Nadal may have been too much for Djokovic, I don't know...
     
    #12
  13. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,324
    Location:
    Wales
    If he'd gone, like, one round further in any fairly big tournament, he probably would have been year end #2.

    Federer's year end ranking: #2 with 5,305 points

    Djokovic's year end ranking: #3 with 5,295 points

    Just 10 teeny tiny wafeer theen leetle points diff-er-ence! :shock:
     
    #13
  14. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,058
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Comes down to how you value superior performance in majors vs superior performance in non-majors.

    Luckily, ATP has a way to weight results in various tournaments - i.e. the ranking points system.

    Fed came out 10 pts ahead of Djoker under this system. So there you go, Fed was real #2 in 2008.

    Unless of course you disagree with how ATP point system values events / results. In which case, you can of course make up anything you want.
     
    #14
  15. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,671
    Exactly I think when you compare their records the 1 big thing that stands out is the 2R loss for Djoker. If he had even made it to the 3rd round then he'd be ahead.
     
    #15
  16. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    It's not all about Majors
     
    #16
  17. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Exactly, Anderson in IW, Simon in Marseilles, Tsonga in TMC...
     
    #17
  18. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    30,970
    Location:
    New York
    I agree that in terms of titles won, Djoko did much better than Fed in 2008. What penalized him in the rankings was his second round W exit.
     
    #18
  19. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,541
    0.01 seconds

    In the Olympics if you win by 0.01 seconds in a race you are still the winner. 10 points is still ahead. Close by Djokovic - but it showed what a great player he is. It was definitely his coming out year (I know he had some good results in 2007, but 2008 with AO and Masters Cup showed he was up there with the big boys).
     
    #19
  20. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    H2H vs best player

    Djokovic 2-4
    Federer 0-4
     
    #20
  21. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,541
    Win loss records

    I know Federer's win/loss record for 2008 was 66–15 (81.48%). What was Djokovic's?

    (Not that Win/Loss is a very high criteria for determining overall ranking).
     
    #21
  22. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,233
    Huh? Your main argument for Djokovic having a better 2012 than Federer was he got slightly further in all of the slams. (This was before WTF was even played). And here in 2008 Federer did way better in slams than Djokovic (compared to Djokovic better in slams in 2012) and you're on Djokovic's side. LOL, the hate is big with this one.
     
    #22
  23. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    It's 64-16
     
    #23
  24. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    Quit whining. Stats don't lie.
     
    #24
  25. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Basel Estoril Halle

    TMC Rome IW
     
    #25
  26. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    16,820
    Location:
    Poland, eating bigos and żeberka
    Since when is F+SF "slightly" better than a SF+2R in a major?
     
    #26
  27. Fiji

    Fiji Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,189
    Federer reached THREE slam finals in 2008, similar to Djokovic in 2012.

    Federer had a better 2008 than Djokovic who only reached ONE slam final.
     
    #27
  28. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    16,820
    Location:
    Poland, eating bigos and żeberka
    How is that supposed to determine who was better? Federer led the h2h against Djokovic that year, so why don't you take that into consideration?
     
    #28
  29. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Ok it's better...
     
    #29
  30. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    Wimbledon 2nd Round? Or was it the 3rd? :lol:
     
    #30
  31. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Focus on the titles
     
    #31
  32. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Please, both players won 1 Major
     
    #32
  33. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    I focus on points. Because points dictate rankings, not titles. Federer leads there. That is a fact. So Federer being the real #2 is also a stone cold fact. Accept it.
     
    #33
  34. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    10 ATP points
     
    #34
  35. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    Yes, 10. Not "-10", "+10", so Federer leads. Or do I need to teach you math first?
     
    #35
  36. Fiji

    Fiji Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,189
    BUT Federer reached the finals of THREE majors.
     
    #36
  37. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    And the Semifinal in the fourth. Unlike Djokovic who flamed out in the first week at Wimbledon.
     
    #37
  38. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    I'm talking about titles. Both players won 1 Major but Djokovic won 2 MS and TMC
     
    #38
  39. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    Djokovic is #3 of 2008. Deal with it :twisted:
     
    #39
  40. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Federer failed to win MS!
     
    #40
  41. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,786
    Translation : Wah Wah Wah Wah Wah!
     
    #41
  42. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    843
    Location:
    Far away
    Maybe Djokovic should have won another match.
     
    #42
  43. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897

    Cheap.

    I can say the same thing for you...
     
    #43
  44. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    I'd love to know what Zagor thinks...
     
    #44
  45. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,496
    Well it depends on whether you think slam results in terms of consistency are worth more than titles won below slam level. Let's be real, Federer wasn't slightly above Djokovic in slam results, that 2nd round wimbledon loss makes Federer significantly better. Federer won 24 matches in slams, Djokovic won 18. A 6 match difference is the equivilent of reaching a whole other slam final.

    He did win more important titles though, so I think both players have a good claim to being the number 2 player. Federer was the number 2 player in slams and Djokovic was the overall number 2. That 2nd round loss cost him a lot and really he should have gone further and got the number 2 but you know if he had finsihed at number 2 it would have been well deserved. I basically favour Djokovic too, just on the basis of the TMC capping off the year.

    Wait, when it looked like Federer could end the year at number 1 last year you were going on about slam results (i should stress overall consistency in slams when both equal on slam titles, not more slams held) being more important that titles held... because you know, Federer had more titles. But now you think titles outweigh slam consistancy?

    Please be consistant :lol:
     
    #45
  46. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Thanks Towser83, I was waiting for your opinion because you're fan of both players!:)

    Yes Federer was better in Majors (RG2008 :)) but they both won only one! Federer played only 2 MS finals!
     
    #46
  47. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,496
    I agree, I'm just saying that in terms of consistency at Majors Federer was more than slightly better, he won 6 more matches which is like making an extra slam final.

    But I do place more importance on other titles when slam wins are tied. The fact Novak lost in the 2nd round at Wimbledon is a big blow, but the TMC is a big plus so for me, I would give Djokovic the edge. If he had made the quarters or better at Wimbledon, I would say it was a very clear difference, but I still favour him by a bit even with that early loss.
     
    #47
  48. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Thank you again for your objectivity. Yes, TMC is definitely the biggest difference.

    And Djokovic breaks Nadal's winning streak!:)
     
    #48
  49. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    10,897
    Location:
    NL, Canada
    ATP website says Federer finished #2 so really that's all that matters, but lets examine the results anyway. It kind of surprises me that Federer finished #2 given that he had a fair amount of points to defend from 2007, and Djokovic didn't have near as many, but I guess that obviously means that by year's end Federer had held on to his huge lead at the start of the year by the skin of his teeth.

    Essentially he dropped to Djokovic's level (no disrespect intended, simply meaning that 2007 was the last year Federer won 3 slams.) It's also worth noting that the system was slightly different in 2008 and was changed to today's system in 2009. For example Federer picked up 1400 pts for a final at RG. Today he would only get 1200. And he picked up 700 for a final in Hamburg, whereas today he would only get 600. In contrast, Djokovic picked up 900 pts for a SF at the USO, whereas today he would only get 720. It also must be mentioned that if anybody can read between the lines a little bit, this means that Federer wasn't getting hit as hard in the rankings for not defending his slams at the AO and Wimbledon, considering they still got 2000 pts for winning a slam in 2008. MS were still worth 1000 pts for a win, and 500's and 250's were the same for a win as well. The change was in the point distribution for the other rounds.

    But if you look at the difference between Djokovic's and Federer's pts (old and new systems) it's +20 for Djokovic. So under the new system it is likely Djokovic would've finished YE #2 considering Federer only beat him by 10 pts. Basically if both years were moved up to 2009 Djokovic is probably YE #2.

    Also, in 2007 and every year before that that's worth talking about in this discussion, Federer, for example only got 1000 pts for winning Wimbledon and 500 for winning a Masters. So essentially everything was cut in half. Then they essentially doubled everything in 2008, and tweaked it in 2009 to be the system it is today.

    As for the actual results, it's close obviously. It seems Djokovic was more consistent overall in MS, but he had one really bad loss at a slam that cost him, whereas Federer was less consistent in MS, but much better at the slams.


    I'm getting tired now, so I'll stop here, and just post this for everyone to debate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
    #49
  50. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,897
    Thanks Steve0904, didn't know Djokovic would be ahead of federer if we look through the new system...
     
    #50

Share This Page