Do most of you swing HARD?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ronnie92, Jan 28, 2007.

  1. pkshooter

    pkshooter Semi-Pro

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    I think op just has a bunch of pusher freind's.no offense to ops freind's. I used to have that issue with my tennis buddies, then we got a little better and the problem disappeared.
     
    #51
  2. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    I swing at 70% with my PSL's and Prestige MP's. It's a Lot easier to swing with less pace with a heavier racket then a tweener! :)

    -Fuji
     
    #52
  3. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I guess the take-home message here is never hit 100% as fast as you possibly can. Always dial it back. 60 to 75% of your max velocity is all that's needed.

    I find that when I do approach 100%, my shots sail long.
     
    #53
  4. Mick3391

    Mick3391 Professional

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    Depends, if you need a hard shot, do it, if you need a touch shot, take that. Sometimes there is nothing better in a hard baseline rally then a soft touch flat shot barely over the net!

    If you are out there just trying to kill it, you probably aren't taking advantage of all the shots the game has for you.
     
    #54
  5. canny

    canny Rookie

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    Depends how confident I am at the moment. If Im getting a nice high bounce and deeps balls I'll start reallying swinging out at the ball. Other wise im at 70%
     
    #55
  6. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Actually I hit as hard as I could but a tad before I lose my form due to speed. I always believe that ultimately sport is a competition of strength so why aren't you giving all your strength if you could?
     
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  7. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Because it's inefficient and a waste of energy. :razz: Why would I waste effort on all my strokes, when I get better performance swinging at only 2/3 of full strength.

    -Fuji
     
    #57
  8. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    You mean you can hit at 2.5/3 but you won't? Or your strokes will break down at anything over 2/3?

    If it's the latter than you have no choice. 2/3 in effect is your full strength. LOL.

    If it's the first, then think about this. If your opponent is near or slightly less than your level and hits and runs a tad harder than you, who's gonna win? Ha
     
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  9. Vertiz

    Vertiz Rookie

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    I swing hard 90% of the time but hard is only 75% power. Only rarely do I feel the need to swing out at about 90% power. I almost never swing 100%. Pros are generally swinging in the same ballpark, the only difference being their 75% power is like my 90% power and they do this much more consistently. :)
     
    #59
  10. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Good question!

    I can hit well over 70%, but the trade off in percentage play isn't worth it in my books. When hitting at 70%, for example lets say I will only miss 1 / 10 shots due to a miss hit or a shank. Hitting at 80% bumps my miss ratio to 2 / 10 shots. My strokes don't break down, as I have fairly technically clean mechanics, but it becomes a matter of how much I'm looking to push my opponent back and go on offence, vs how much I am looking to play more defence. So in short: Yes I do hold back my ground strokes to an acceptable level of "risk."

    In your hypothetical situation, it really depends. Hardness of shots really isn't a factor. Very rarely do people literally "blow the ball by me" and the ones that do play Div1 tennis, so that's expected. People at my level (USTA 4.5) just don't hit the ball big enough to bother me. Since you mentioned people below my level, I've never seen a 4.0 hit huge shots. It just doesn't phase me. As for the running harder bit, I don't know how you can run harder then me. My court coverage is pretty darn solid, so speed of my opponent doesn't really come into play either. If my opponent is a "Fast" mover, it just means some good rallies will ensue which I really enjoy. Also, I feel I should add, is that I rarely hit winners. I hit maybe 15 in a 3 set match, not including aces, hence the entire "hardness of shot" theory doesn't really comprehend to well with me.

    -Fuji
     
    #60
  11. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    I disagree. There is a certain level called "100%" that essentially means consciously making a decision to go for a very low-percentage shot, mustering all of your energy and transferring it into the ball (into spin, speed, what have you).

    While your success rate might be minimal, that is still your highest level of shot. When you max out a flat serve at 120 with 1/10 success, that is still your personal best speed-wise, i.e. 100 percent. It is not a measure of the effort that you put in when victorious, but what you are capable of.

    To use your scale, any tennis player trying to hit at 3/3 will either shank, net, or hit the fence on the fly most of the time, yourself and myself included.
     
    #61
  12. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Good post!

    -Fuji
     
    #62
  13. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Let's simplify. Watch atp pros, do you think they hit at their best strength generally through out their match? To me, they do. But for some reason rec players start to give them % like pros only hit 70%, etc.

    I only dial down when I'm not confident or when I'm against much lower players, ie just play enough to win, but that's not what we're talking about. That's not true competition or how a match is intended to be played. :)
     
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  14. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Do you really believe that the pros hit their shots with their full effort every single time? This is what you were saying in a previous post. Pros, just like anyone else who wishes to improve, practice much more intensely than they play matches in order to reach a new peak in skills. Then, they scale their match-play effort back to a practical risk-reward outcome. It still seems like they are giving it their all, and they are, but they don't throw themselves into every shot. Most of the time they are probing with their shots, going for accuracy over sheer weight of shot. Only when they feel confident enough will they unload (and unload is 90% max) on a shot.

    Caveat: Best effort =/= maximum RHS

    Here's the logic: If you are hitting low-percentage shots, and putting everything into each shot throughout the course of a match, and doing so successfully:
    1. You're a master of fitness, mental fortitude, have perfectly sound technique, and impeccable movement; teach us your ways!
    2. It's not 100% of what you're capable.

    Look at the title of this thread.
    Match-play situations call for tactics, which isn't quite what the OP was asking about.
     
    #64
  15. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    That makes sense for a 4.5 :) For most of us (and I'm speaking for myself here, b/c I think I'm bellow 4.0), since our opponents don't move as well, the range of choices is even wider: i.e. I can just place my shots, don't need to blast them/push the opponents back...Or if I want to take average risks, I can just send some hard balls down the middle of the court (without aiming for the lines). And although that's something I've seen recommended even at pro level, it works best against opponents 4 and bellow.

    On the other hand since I'm not moving well myself, I better take the initiative first, so power is tempting. My conclusion so far has been to improve my technique (better swings, faster head speed), aiming in general for effortless power. And some variety.
     
    #65
  16. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Ah, then you are playing like a ...tiger; to quote a chess book, that says that against weaker opponents you should play solid, while you want to make it random against stronger opponents.

    I also agree to your last sentence and I usually treat club matches as practice for my shots and try to play tennis as to how "is supposed to be played"; a long term strategy if you want. I'm a purist if you want, I want to improve my technique first and only second worry about short term results.
     
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  17. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Frankly I no longer sure what we're arguing about :) My point is, with all things equal, for a shot that you can swing all out to take advantage of pace and topspin and put pressure on opponent, why would you swing only at 70%?

    Now to suit your argument you introduce "low percentage" stuff or unique situation. Well, threading needle situations require finesse. So strength and swinging hard is meaningless. Like volleying or dropshot!
     
    #67
  18. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Yeah, I feel like we're defining and arguing slightly different issues. Apologies for any confusion!

    I just wanted to know what your perception of "swinging all out" is; mine, for the purpose of his discussion, is the max. amount of racquet head speed you can generate (which can translate into a combo of pace & spin).

    I know that if I try to hit w/ 100% of my max RHS, I'll miss way too much to beat my opponent, especially one at or above my level. So I go with 70%...

    I'd definitely hit all-out with an effort I can consistently control ("take advantage of"), which isn't necessarily the effort that gets me to 100% RHS.

    Hope that clears up my way of seeing this :)
    I hope this isn't going in circles.
     
    #68
  19. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    psv,

    Well, I read the OP asking if you swing full out or casually, and my take is that I tend to play almost every shot like I try to win with it. That's my idea of worthwhile, fun tennis (and obviously losing is never fun for me, so no hitting the fence).

    I think this argument gets confusing cuz we all have different ideas of swinging "full out" or try to split hair with the concept. OP certainly didn't define what he meant by "full out". Or maybe he meant just that! :)

    In my experience fluctuating your hitting power seems to do more harm than good. I play my best when I hit with one consistent, strong power. It actually simplifies alot by letting me focus on other things.
     
    #69
  20. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Sounds good! I try to do the same.
    But I end up hitting the fence way too often :)
     
    #70
  21. KineticChain

    KineticChain Professional

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    Its not always about swing speed. swing slowly but maximize your weight transfer from legs, torso, shoulders, wrist lag, to the ball. Guaranteed to hit a heavier, pacier ball than most rec players if you do it right. Once you get comfortable with the efficient weight transfer, slowly add more swing speed to it.
     
    #71
  22. Ryoma

    Ryoma Rookie

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    You are swinging too hard only if you hit it out or into the net.
     
    #72
  23. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    I agree with this 99%, also b/c:

    1. It seems that this way we are getting closer to hit the balls as the pros do (racquet head speed etc).

    2. Most of my opponents and partners, at club level, can't do it and that gives me ( a heavy guy and slow mover aka poor defender) the initiative and probably best option.

    But I also try to:

    3. Have some variety.

    4. Play like a tiger, i.e. solid against weaker players/defenders (i.e. against them it's enough to just place the ball and move them around) and mainly random against higher rated players (something from a chess book).

    Cheers!
     
    #73
  24. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Actually, consistency of any kind is a great start. If you already have that kind of "hit the fence" power, keep the same confidence/feel and just adjust amount of topspin and net clearance. Many players tend to "shrink" as a rally gets longer or at a critical point. I'm learning to do what I call "decisive strokes" :) and if I need to increase "percentage" at critical points I do it with placement (well inside the lines) and more topspin as opposed to swinging ...less or 70%. :)

    Fintft,

    I'm actually against "variety" in term of power and strokes :) You're messing yourself up by introducing too many unfamiliar elements.

    Yes, if you watch Djokovic play, you'll see he clearly has rhs on every shot, especially on defensive, on the run shots. Youtube has some clips of Berdych playing close-up, he plays like he's high on caffeine
     
    #74
  25. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Myself, if I want to place my shots, I better tune it down a bit, unless I'm really in a zone.

    Also what's wrong with a drop shot now and then? Even Federer started to like the idea...
     
    #75
  26. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Maybe it was fun for him or some sort of obsession, but it surely wasn't successful ... :)

    Hey since you mentioned chess, you could see tennis as chess and use chess concepts also. Play with a purpose and arrive at the configurations that favor you. Train yourself to recognize and implement as many configurations as possible. :)
     
    #76
  27. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    the occasional drop shot, once every game or two, keeps baseliners unsettled.
     
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  28. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Thank you for the very thoughtful reply!

    Visualization is a technique used mostly in end games in chess (as the position you want to arrive to), while on the other hand Scientific American has done a whole study of how human intelligence works, using chess as an example and they've arrived (if I'm not mistaken) at the conclusion that pattern recognition is used a lot by Grand Masters (and that sets them apart from regular masters).
     
    #78
  29. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    True, although like user92626 said, it messes yourself up a bit, by introducing a variable into your own shots (although I think that ultimately you'd be a better player once you master that).
     
    #79
  30. Mike2228

    Mike2228 Rookie

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    I swing hard when it makes sense.
     
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  31. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    I do the opposite :D
     
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  32. Jay_The_Nomad

    Jay_The_Nomad Professional

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    But if I were to give a percentage I'll say I hit at 80% on every shot.

    100% on those deep floating returns that land with no pace and I want to really crush. But usually I just play the ball back as its a low percentage shot to really smack it.
     
    #82
  33. YoungLefty

    YoungLefty New User

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    About 75% relax full swing.
     
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  34. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    +1

    swinging "hard" or "soft" doesnt make sense.
    perhaps the OP is confusing force with speed.
    I can regulate how fast or slow I swing.
    But how hard is dependent on other factors beside swing as it is a measure of "hitting"

    I can feel I can swing the fastest and with most firmness when I try to power the ball inside out with my forearms while I SWING MY ARMS in the opposing vector.
    I can play a "heavy " ball by swinging 75% speed and spinning the ball along the the swinging direction , this might feel more "heavy" to my opponent yet I dont "swing hard"
     
    #84
  35. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Timing and technique gives you more power than just swinging hard.
     
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  36. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    I agree as I've just experienced that last night, when my hand was hurting after a return of serve.

    Couldn't swing too hard, or at least it made me swing with no tension whatsoever neither in my grip, nor in my arm and it did wonders, especially since I was forced to hit 1H BH most of the time in those practice rallies...Found my timing, based on feel mainly and on longer swings.

    It also reminded me of that poster with his "swing with minimum effort" video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehyqjhDbsM
     
    #86
  37. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    i try to hit through the ball more when i want to push my opponent back.
     
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  38. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I love Tomaz's videos. They are the first (besides Lock n roll) I have seen that teach the game in a way that shows you the feel of each stroke. Tennis strokes are all about flow and continuous movement.
     
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  39. Dellon

    Dellon New User

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    #89

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