Does anyone find Murray's H2H vs Rafa a little surprising?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by kragster, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    I find that Murray's 5-13 H2H vs Rafa is somewhat surprising given that out of the 18 matches only 4 were on clay ( 3 grass, 11 HC). To compare, even prior to his amazing 2011 run, Djokovic led the hard court H2H vs Nadal even when he trailed by a large margin overall. I am not saying Murray should lead this H2H but I think he should get a lot closer than 5-13.

    Murray has done much better vs Fed and Djokovic even if you discount the recent gains in 2012. Logically it would seem that Murray's game should match up well vs Nadals much better than it does vs Fed.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Not really... Anything Murray can do, Nadal can do it 5 times better.. Rafa also has the nerves of steel while Murray 9 times out of 10 buckles under the pressure of big matches. Murray's main reason for a h2h over Roger (non slams mind you) is the fact that Fed is getting old.

    Djoker-Murray is interesting. But generally Djoker is the victor there.
     
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  3. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    Not exactly. I don't see why logic dictates he would matchup well against Nadal. It's not like he consistently takes he ball on the rise, or keeps Rafa guessing by attacking net.

    Murray can force Federer into erroring himself to death if Fed isn't playing perfectly. The same can be said for Nole, especially when he was mentally up and down.

    Until Murray recently improved his aggression and his forehand, I don't think Murray really had anything to hurt Nadal with, and Nadal is less likely to beat himself than Fed or Nole is.

    Just my thoughts..
     
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  4. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    Nadal has a great head-to-head against all of the other top 4 players, and pretty much every other player. (H2Hs like 1-3 with Hrbaty, 5-6 with Davydenko and 0-1 with Rosol are hardly decisive.)

    Can't see why this is surprising. The player with the most talent has the greater number of superior H2Hs with his 'rivals'.
     
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  5. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Their H2H will be turned around over the next few years. That's if Nadal ever even comes back.
     
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  6. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    At the risk of being accused of cherry picking....

    Since Murray made his first slam QF in July 2008, his record v Rafa on hards in not too shabby - he leads 5-4 overall, 1-1 in slams.
     
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  7. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Nadal/Murray matches on clay and hardcourt are generally fun to watch. Monte Carlo 2011 was very good. Too bad Murray was injured.
     
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  8. Sim

    Sim Semi-Pro

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    Not surprising to me. Murray doesn't have that "killer instinct" like Nole or Fed.
     
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  9. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    So you must find his head to head with Roger very surprising? Or maybe it surprises you to finad that Murray has the same number of slam wins over Rafa as 'killer instinct' Roger?

    When was the last time Nole or Fed took a set off Rafa for the loss of 4 points?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  10. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    What surprises me is how easily Nadal wins. Every time they faced in a GS SF in the last years you could tell Nadal was going to win. And he always did, and pretty easily. Even in USO or Wimbledon. This was something I didn't see coming after the USO 2008.
     
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  11. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Nadal the most talented??? Please don't kid yourself
     
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  12. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    2-1 in Slams. USO 2008, AO 2010 were victories for Murray. Nadal won at the USO last year.
     
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  13. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    How could I forget the USO 08 - doh! Thanks for the correction mate.
     
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  14. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Murray has never been able to really dominate Nadal on Harcourt, and i am not talking about single matches i mean he's never led the head to head by very much, maybe one match. he's very even with Nadal on Harcourt where as djokovic has managed to lead Nadal by a lot. Murray will win matches, big ones but then get hammered by Nadal like in IW 2009. That was after Murray beat Nadal in a slam and was a big shock really. i would expect Murray to lead the Harcourt head to head but i think he's been too inconsistent to do it.
     
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  15. underground

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    I'm more surprised that Nadal was crap enough to be bagelled by Murray.
     
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  16. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    Did you watch that set? Murray was in God mode; Nadal was just defending against an unstoppable force at the time.
     
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  17. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Bagelled for FOUR points.
     
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  18. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Well, whatever you want to call it :confused:

    something has allowed him to have the best record vs and amongst the other Big 4!

    I beleive i was the first to point this out. Nadal is still not given enough credit for such a significant acomplishment...
     
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  19. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Fed must have been getting old ever since 2006 then.
     
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  20. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    He's been getting older since 1981.
     
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  21. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    You will never be as young as you are right now. You will always get older. It's depressing when you think of it like that.
     
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  22. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Isn't that the beauty of it?
     
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  23. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Not at the USO or AO. They are 1-1 at both these Slams:

    USO: 2008, Murray in 4; 2011, Nadal in 4.
    AO: 2007, Nadal in 5; 2010, Murray in 3.

    Only at the FO and Wimbledon has Nadal had it a bit easier:

    Wimbledon: 2008 & 2010, Nadal in 3; 2011, Nadal in 4.
    FO: 2011, Nadal in 3.

    All in all, Murray has taken 10 sets off Nadal in their 8 Slam meetings. Not all that bad a record.
     
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  24. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    the main reason is he is near unbeatable on clay, where as everyone else is beatable on their favourite surface. It's no coincidence that his closest H2H amongst the top 4 is with Djokovic, who enjoys the biggest lead in his favourite surface H2H of any of Nadal's top 4 rivals. Murray and Federer have only managed to stay roughly even with Nadal on hardcourt (federer 1 match in the lead, Murray is I think one behind, federer is also only one match ahead in grass H2H) So the only way for any top 4 player to get even with nadal is either have very few clay mettings (which is not likely - if you want to be top 4 you need to be making masters semis even on clay) or dominate Nadal on hardcourt. Djokovic is the only member of the top 4 to do this, but still not enough to lead Nadal yet. Put simply no-one is as good on any surface as nadal is on clay.
     
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  25. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    True. But Murray didn't start beating him until 2006. :wink:
     
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  26. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    Very well put. Basically Rafa is going to dominate the clay H2H, so the only way to get even with him is to dominate the HC H2H (too few grass tournaments for grass H2H to matter). However outside of Djokovic, no one else has been able to dominate Rafa on HC (Fed can do that on indoor HC but most tournaments are outdoor HC). My personal opinion is that Murray has the weapons to dominate the hard court H2H (Big 1st serve, deep penetrating BH's to Nadal's BH) but then again theory is very different from practice.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  27. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Yeah it's weird isn't it? Murray does seem to have the potential to have a decent edge on hardcourt, and when he's really on form he can swamp Nadal's game (taken 2 love sets from him in finals) but he just can't seem to do it consistantly and when Nadal is on top form he just plays the same sort of game but better. Murray sometimes tries to outrally nadal and he often falls short. I think Djokovic is more comfortable at being agressive (though I think even he has become more defensive recently) Murray should try to stay agressive because trying to out rally Nadal is a dangerous game
     
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  28. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Its easy to have a great head to head against your rivals when you play them on your favorite surface and then on your worst surface you:
    • Are injured and dont play
    • Skip the event
    • Loose to [insert random player]
     
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  29. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    True, but that is only to Nadal's credit .

    I do remember Djokovic saying (before 2011) that players thought they had to play points short to beat Rafa, but that he thought it was the opposite, because winning rallies against him hurt Rafa's confidence.
    Seems to work well for him, but of course not everyone has the game to be able to do that.
     
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  30. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    I think Peak Federer could've outgrinded Nadal if he put his mind to it. Probably less than 50% of the time but he could have. Federer's grinding capabilities are underrated and underacknowledged.
     
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  31. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    You may be cherry picking but I think it is instructive. Some pros progress faster than others. Nadal burst on the scene very young and developed quite qucikly. Federer on the other hand, while showing flashes of brillance, took awhile longer to reach his potential. I put Murray on the Federer side of this equation. Assuming Nadal comes back, I think Murray will be a tough match up for Nadal on hard courts. After all, Djokovic has given Murray the blueprint on how to beat Nadal. Murray's game is obviously simialr to Djokovic, the main difference was Novak has been stronger mentally which could change drastically now that Andy was won both the Olympic gold and the US Open.
     
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  32. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    It is depressing.

    I'm sure Fed is devastated at the impact Murray has had on his career. :?

    [​IMG]

    I'm not sure if he could have outgrinded him, but he could at least have gotten his hands dirty in an attempt to play the type of game necessary to beat him. No need to be a ballerina all the time.
     
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  33. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Believe me, I wasn't saying it in a way to not credit Nadal, I agree it's to his credit.

    And good point. I think in Madrid 2009 Djokovic got close beating Nadal, in MC and Rome he had given him tough matches trying to out rally him. In Madrid Nadal was possibly shaken, he made more errors as Djokovic tested his game. Obviously in 2011 he turned this into straight sets wins. The thing is Djokovic now tries to out rally nadal on hardcourt too, and he's actually had more trouble beating him than he did in 2007-2009. Murray tries and has to be really on form to do it.
     
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  34. Sim

    Sim Semi-Pro

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    You're taking my line out of context. Of course at times, he can catch fire and be a winner machine or defend better than anyone, but most of the time, he is content to rally. He doesn't go for winners as much as Nole or Fed which means they don't play Nadal's game. Obviously, you already know that Nadal is one of the best defenders already, and Murray is too. But Nadal reached his prime earlier than Murray, so most of the matches would go Nadal's way if they played a similar style. Bageling Nadal in Tokyo doesn't magically give Murray more wins in the H2H. It is still 5-13...

    And if they were to play now with this new Murray, I would think that Murray would get more wins now in their matches than previously.
     
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  35. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Not really. People underrate how great a grass court player Nadal is. By far the 2nd best of this era behind Federer, much superior to Djokovic or Murray career wise at this point. So Nadal winning all the clay and all the grass meetings doesnt surprise me much. Hard courts Nadal is also underrated and is atleast on par with Murray career wise, so again not surprised he could win half and even slightly lead the H2H on hards.

    Anyway as others have said there isnt anything that would logically make Murray a tough matchup for Nadal. Nadal mostly has problems with guys who can overpower him.
     
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  36. MSK

    MSK Rookie

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    Yeah Murray wasn't leading 6-2 or anything when Old man Fed, wasn't quite so old.... quit your pish excuses Murrays the man
     
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  37. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Wake me up when Murray beats Fed at a slam.. Until then... Forget it..

    Hell the main reasons Murray has won much of ANYTHING this year:

    1. Fed aging
    2. Nadal out injured

    Simple truth
     
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  38. RAFA2005RG

    RAFA2005RG Banned

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    You have badmouthed Rafa more than any poster in this forum (and continue to, despite Rafa killing you at Roland Garros this year). So nobody takes your opinion seriously.
     
    #38
  39. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    Nadal: "Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you."
     
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  40. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    And nobody takes the opinion of someone with multiple personalites on a tennis forum seriously,either.
     
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  41. RAFA2005RG

    RAFA2005RG Banned

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    I've supported Rafa from day one. Nothing multiple about me.

    I recall you actually claiming to be a Rafa fan at one stage. Yet you spend every day attacking him. That's what I call multiple personalities.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
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  42. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Lol...so Fed aged badly in the 4 weeks between the Wimbledon and Olympic finals did he? :)

    Simple conjecture. Murray could well have beaten Nadal at USO this year. He did it once before when he was a much lesser player than he is now!
     
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  43. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Federer is old and years past his prime at this point, that is a fact. That Djokovic and Murray still sometimes lose in big matches to him despite this only serves as proof of his vast superiority in general over both.
     
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  44. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    She does not have multiple personalities Rafa2005. She's astupid troll, that's all there is to it.
     
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  45. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Birds of a feather...
     
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  46. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Was Federer old in 2006?

    2006 ATP Masters Series Cincinnati
    OH, U.S.A. Hard R32 Murray, Andy
    7-5, 6-4.
     
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  47. syc23

    syc23 Professional

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    Yes the H2H is a bit lopsided but Rafa hasn't played Murray since that bagelling in Tokyo.

    I would say with a more aggressive game and improved mindset, I would be looking for Murray to start turning the H2H record around.
     
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  48. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    I agree. Nadal is the only player that plays defense better than Murray, Nole matches him in defense.

    Murray knows in order to beat Nadal he must be very offensive almost all the time. Against Nole I think Murray feels he can play his natural game but has to execute very well. Against Nadal Murray feels he can't play his natural game...
     
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  49. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    No, Clarky is just acting like a jilted lover who still has strong feelings for the one that disapointed/crushed her :)

    Its a defense mechanism...
     
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  50. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Few people play the big points better than Nadal, Murray's often had some very tight sets against Rafa but he's always been just not quite good enough. Andyin my mind out of all the top 3 most intimidated by Rafa as well, maybe that hinders him in big matches at times. It's no secret that Andy thinks Rafa is the greatest of all time IIRC. Andy's game has improved this year though, if Nadal's has dipped the H2h could start going the other way.
     
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