Does anyone find Murray's H2H vs Rafa a little surprising?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by kragster, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    False.

    Dissociative identity disorder (DID), also known as multiple personality disorder (MPD),[1] is a mental disorder characterized by at least two distinct and relatively enduring identities or dissociated personality states that alternately control a person's behavior, and is accompanied by memory impairment for important information not explained by ordinary forgetfulness. These symptoms are not accounted for by substance abuse, seizures, other medical conditions or imaginative play in children.[2] Diagnosis is often difficult as there is considerable comorbidity with other mental disorders. Malingering should be considered if there is possible financial or forensic gain, as well as factitious disorder if help-seeking behavior is prominent.[2]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder
     
    #51
  2. vllaznia

    vllaznia Semi-Pro

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    And of course you expect a 31 years old guy to recuperate physically and mentally after the longest 3 set match like he was 25-26 years old.
     
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  3. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    not saying Murray couldn't beat federer in the Olympic final if federer was in his prime, but not the way he would so easily. even Nadal in his best year needed 5 sets. its impressive what Murray did but still its ridiculous to totally deny age. one thing about age is your consistency and ability to get fired up for every match goes. so him winning at wimbledon just before doesn't really matter. he also lost at halle to tommy haas before that - he doesn't have the ability to win several tournaments in a row as much as before. also at wimby he didn't have a big draining match like the Delpo one. so not denying Murray could win but it wouldn't be a stroll like it was.

    and this from someone who is no federer fan. but of course correct, federer is much better than nole and Andy, as good as they are.
     
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  4. tacou

    tacou Legend

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    as many have said I'm sure, Murray's game matches up well with Nadal in theory but never in execution. If Murray plays aggressive he has tools to really hurt Rafa, but rarely does he ever play that way. In fact, he pushes more against Nadal than Fed usually.

    Pusher Murray is mouthwatering to Rafa.
     
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  5. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    No matter what.... if rafa comes he will tame muzz
     
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  6. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Even if he's battling injuries and only practices every three months? :lol:
     
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  7. roberttennis54

    roberttennis54 Semi-Pro

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    Well I think it's a mistake ignore the factor grass has on the head to head. Nadal is a much better grass court player than Murray. Nadal is significantly better on clay, and better on grass. So not surprised Nadal has won all those encounters.

    Murray though has a fairly big match up advantage against Nadal, so I am surprised about the difference in hard courts. Nadal once again better than Murray on hardcourts, but it is close between them. Considering Murray is the one with the match up advantage I would expect Murray to lead comfortable on hardcourts.
     
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  8. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    This must explain Murray's 5-4 hardcourt record v Rafa (2-1 in slams) since entering the top 5. I guess it must also explain why Rafa got bagelled for just FOUR POINTS in the last set they played. Yep - Rafa sure finds Murray mouthwatering on hardcourts.
     
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  9. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Is or was?
     
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  10. Legend of Borg

    Legend of Borg Legend

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    So you should make it a goal to age like fine wine.
     
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  11. vllaznia

    vllaznia Semi-Pro

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    Well he is still number one in the world which imo is better than no 2 and 3.
     
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  12. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    I mean is as in his potential playing ability for his age etc. These days Nole and Andy may be better (keep in mind Federer is still higher ranked than Andy, still higher on the 12 month ranking than Nole, and has more titles than both players) but Federer's ability is still better. When they are 31 I doubt they will be top 4. Obviously they are both very good, but Federer is in an extra special league.
     
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  13. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    If the field is as weak as it is this year in 2017 and beyond I wouldnt be surprised one bit if Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray are all still top 4 at 31 should they chose to be playing then. The guys 5 to ranked lower are just that weak. Who knows if an up and coming group worth a darn in talent (aka something way better than the useless Raonic generation) will emerge by then.

    Federer doing well at 31 is nice, but I dont know why people think it is something revolutionary. Agassi was winning slams and ranked #1 when he was 33, and Agassi isnt even as good as Federer. Serena is dominating and by far the best women player in the World (while Federer is not the best mens player in the World) at 31. Again keeping in mind how weak the field is now outside the big 4, perhaps the worst 5-20 ranked field in history, it would be nearly impossible for a player like Federer at almost any age to be out of the top 4, and with Nadal being out injured half the year almost impossible to be ranked outside the top 3. The impressive thing is that he temporarily returned to #1 over Djokovic, but being top 3 or 4 is nothing remotedly shocking.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2012
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  14. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    I can't see Nadal continue to play on after 30 years of age (if he makes it that far).. If he can't get back to reasonably high heights where he is still a top player he may very well just retire..

    For being so young he has been in and around the top since 2005 don't forget.. Thats a long time.. Most guys dont even make it that long. ANd the fact, hes won a slam every year since then I believe.. Thats damn good

    I would hope he continues on though to at least make an attempt at the slam record. But physically he may not be able to.. The older you get the more difficult it is to recuperate.. Especially having a history of injuries that he has had.

    But hes done pretty much everything there is to do (barring a YEC, which doesn't exactly have the same prestige it used to. Far from it). Not much else to really shoot for for Nadal other then the slam record.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
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  15. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Of Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray I agree Nadal is the most likely to either be struggling or retired at 30 for a variety of fairly obvious reasons, but be wary as Nadal often surprises. Djokovic and Murray though I could easily see still going strong into their 30s though, especialy if the mens field stays as weak as it is now.
     
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  16. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    I agree there is nothing surprising about Federer being top 4, I was thinking about him getting back to number one, winning 3 masters this year, 1 last year and the WTF etc.

    You maybe right about Djokovic and Murray being in the top 4 at 31 but I wouldn't be shocked if they retired before then.

    Agassi, like Connors was a very good older player. What's the point of mentioning Serena though? The women's game is totally different (Navratilova was winning into her 30s, and winning doubles into her late 40s) and the competition in it is a joke. You may laugh at the mens and say below the top 4 there is no strength, but in the women's there is no strength below serena and no strength above her either. It's just her. In the men's game you have 4 quality players, and in the women's you have 1. If you remove Serena there IS more competiveness than the men's but that's only because the rest of the tour is pretty crappy, but in the men's you'd have to take out 4 players. The players below like Berdych, Tsonga etc are way better than the women's tour, just they have 4 guys who will school them time and time again.
     
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  17. OverratedIvanovic

    OverratedIvanovic Semi-Pro

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    Nadal hasn't faced Murray 2.0 yet. He got a taste of it at Tokyo 2011. I don't think Rafa will find it easy against new Murray except clay.
     
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  18. RAFA2005RG

    RAFA2005RG Banned

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    They played at the 2011 US Open. Did Murray magically transform after Nadal beat him at the US Open? :D

    Truth is, both Federer and Murray didn't have to play Nadal in 2012 (except for Federer at the AO semis). That's the difference between winning a slam and not. Nadal was not at the Wimbledon/US Open semis and that is why Federer and Murray both won slams.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
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  19. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    That is because he lost in the second round. You see in tennis it is a funny thing, a player actually has to make it past the second round into the SF's and F's to win a slam.

    Re Murray, you just wait, he will defeat Nadal on HC. He is a much better player now than he was even a year ago.
     
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  20. RAFA2005RG

    RAFA2005RG Banned

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    Actually, Murray played like crap at Wimbledon. And in the US Open final, Djokovic played like crap. Murray has been no different to 2011. I bet 2011 Murray would have beaten 2012 Djokovic at the US Open too.
     
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  21. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    Murray doesn't match up well with Nadal. He prefers playing more traditional styles with less topspin. That and the courts being slow in most tournaments. I agree that Murray needs to take the ball earlier against Rafa. But I think Rafa's game makes it harder for Murray to do it because of the spin. Murray likes a flat ball or close to it.
     
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  22. nethawkwenatchee

    nethawkwenatchee Professional

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    Not true. Starting all the way back in Shanghai 2005 - Doha 2009 Murray held a 5-2 record versus a then "prime" Federer (That's their first seven meetings) and Murray was an upstart for the first few years, Federer was winning major championships.
     
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  23. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    I consider Federer's prime 2004-2007, if they were from the same generation, Fed would of course look a lot better. But Murray plays who's in front of him and does that well.

    The fact that Federer still hangs tough with these guys is and will be a testament to his greatness. He's 1-1 with nadal, 2-2 with Novak, and 2-2 with Murray I think this year.
     
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  24. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Murray is both qualitatively and qualitatively different to 2011. From a quantitative perspective, Hawkeye analysis shows that, on average, Murray is standing and hitting the ball 1 metre further forward than he did last year. In addition to this, Murray is having his best ever year on 2nd serve points won.

    From a qualitative perspective, his use of the forehand has changed in 2 major ways:

    1. He will hit it hard DTL/inside out far more often than he used to

    2. Even if he's having a bad forehand day, he'll continue to keep going for it whereas he would stop going for it in previous years.

    In addition to the above, I think Murray is generally more aggressive than he's ever been.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
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  25. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. Still dislike his lack of S& V and finishing points at the net in general. He's got the game to play S&V, some chip and charge etc.

    That's all taste though. Qualitatively it was long obvious that his forehand to the backhand corner of a righty, and his second serve were the major issues. Lendl helped improve them.
     
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  26. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Murray had to play back to back days at the USO because of bad scheduling. He was completely exhausted when he faced Nadal at USO 2011.
    As for Nadal, the semifinals isn't handed to him on a platter. He has to work for it just like all the other players. Did you notice Federer was basically 2 points away from losing to Benneteau at Wimbledon in the 3rd round? Did you notice Federer lost to Berdych and Tsonga at Wimbledon in previous years? Did you know Nadal got smashed by Djokovic at last year's Wimbledon final?
    You have to EARN your spot which means going through the draw and upsets are more likely on fast grass at Wimbledon than anywhere. Big hitters and big servers always have a chance. Nadal struggled at Wimbledon many times.
     
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  27. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    People seem to forget that while Serena lords over a weak womens tour now this was not always the case. In 1999-2005 she was the dominant player of perhaps the strongest womens tour in history with Venus, Serena, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, Mauresmo, Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Pierce, all at or near their best and for some of those years Novotna, Seles, Graf, Hingis, Sanchez Vicario, as well. By contrast Federer has never played in a field anywhere close to the strongest mens field in history, let alone dominated one that would be classified as such.
     
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  28. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Wow why would you trash your own boy Nadal like that?
     
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  29. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Mens tennis is infinitely better than womens tennis in general. It's just the way it is. As for Murray's H2H with Rafa, no not really surprising. Nadal hasn't played the more agressive Murray though. Pre 2012, Nadal was a better grass court player (3 wins there), a much better clay court player of course, and they were at the very least even on HC. Again, pre 2012 Murray just wasn't very consistent, and I didn't get the feeling he believed he could win big matches against the best player, but he's coming around now which is why I'm interested to see how it goes from here on grass and HC. Of course, assuming Nadal is healthy clay will still be a lost cause.
     
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  30. kaku

    kaku Professional

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    I think Murray tried some chip and charge at the USO. But S&V Murray would be great to see. I know that during the off season will be the first time Lendl and Murray work together for an extended period of time, so hopefully Lendl will convince Murray to S&V more. In the long run, it will help him save energy in the later stages of Grand slams
     
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  31. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Comparing the WTA to ATP is as meaningless as comparing 60s Tennis to Tennis today. They're totally different. But I guess unfair comparisons are all you can come up with to put down Federer.
     
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  32. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Correction: he trashed both his boys, Nadal AND Agassi. Not to mention Sampras, Hewitt, Roddick, Philippousis, etc.

    But when your starting proposition is that, all evidence to the contrary be damned, Federer sucks, then of course everyone else becomes just so much weaker. :rolleyes:
     
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  33. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    This just shows your bias both towards serena and against Federer, because you're straying off the point.

    This is about NOW. We're talking about a 31 year old Serena and a 31 year old Federer, which puts us now. Not 1999-2005 (which I didn't call weak, and I agree it was a pretty strong era)

    But today, the men's tour has a better standard than the women's.

    Btw I don't think you can include Navratilova and Graf in that strong era, and I thought you were of the opinion that Clijsters was not that great and lucky to have won what she has.. but that's another story.The point is you were making a comment that it was not remarkable for a 31 year old Federer to be where he is since some other players have done the same. I'm saying A- the women's tour is totally different from the men's so not really comparable so we should compare men's players, and B- Serena doesn't have much competition. As we are talking about 31 year old serena, of course I am refering to NOW and not her general levelof opposition.
     
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  34. harrpau7

    harrpau7 Rookie

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    I can't believe Murray is 0-3 vs Rafa at Wimbledon. that surprises me.

    Would love to see Murray beat Rafa at Wimbledon in the future.

    I think that in 2013 if Murray plays Rafa anywhere but clay he will notch up some more victores, maybe go something like the below....

    Murray victories - Miami, Wimby, Cincy, US Open, WTF
    Rafa victories - Madrid, Roland Garros

    H2H at end of 2013 - RN 15 AM 10
     
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  35. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    Why is the first sentence surprising for you? Nadal is a better grass court player than Murray.
     
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  36. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    Since when is one player the field?
     
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  37. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

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    Murray has always handled Nadal pretty well on hardcourts. Not on anything else.
     
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  38. Magnus

    Magnus Legend

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    He will get closer, and he will beat Rafa many times on HC in the future, not that's he's at his peak. Murray is a better player than Nadal on hard courts, and that's it (Nadal more accomplished on the surface, but not for long). Nadal will always lead H2Hs due to his beloved clay. On HC he's inferior to Fed, Nole and Murray, and on grass he's inferior to Fed, and on par with the other two (maybe superior to Murray).
     
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  39. harrpau7

    harrpau7 Rookie

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    Because whilst at this time I sort of agree Nadal is slighty better on grass, I still think Murray had a decent shot in both the 2010 and 2011 Wimbledon SF's. I think if they had met this year at Wimbledon Murray would have won. Murray is easily capable of beating Nadal on grass, he has already defeated both Djokovic & Federer on Centre Court, why not Nadal in the next couple of years?

    An 0-3 head to head says that the player who won all 3 is vastly superior, whilst Nadal currently has the better career by far and overall head to head I would have expected Murray to have or eventually defeat Nadal at Wimbledon.
     
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  40. syc23

    syc23 Professional

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    Before 2012, it was Murray's mindset that defeated himself rather than Rafa's abilities on grass. I'm pretty sure 2013 will see the Scot overturning the negative H2H on grass and even some matches on clay. Murray had what like 18 BPs against Rafa at RG '11 so it's not like he's useless on clay.
     
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