Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennisMVP, Sep 24, 2012.
I think he's showing great stamina overall. Just not as clutch.
I don't think he's much different.
Absolutely everything went for him last year eg two match points down against Federer at last years USO and the net chord against Murray in the Rome semi final when Murray was serving for the match.
In addition, Murray has stepped it up as seen at AO 2012, the Olympics and USO and he's the one playing "clutch" tennis.
You know what they say. It's how you play the big points that really matters.
Somehow Murray is the guy doing it now.
I think part of it has to do with Nadal. He double faulted on match point at Roland Garros 2012, so clearly Nadal affected him mentally, and he hasn't played his best tennis in a lot of big matches compared to 2011 (at Wimbledon 2012 he looked flat after set 3). He also went on a 7-match win streak against Nadal, and he's had to deal with the pressure of continuing that, which was enough to topple the advantage he had over Nadal in 2011. I think the 5th set of AO 2012 (final) was when Djokovic realised he wasn't the same mentally, and that other players (especially Nadal) had caught up to him after his Cinderella 2011.
I agree, I think Nadal and Djokovic have a very emotional rivalry. The emotion runs both ways and impacts their future.
Whereas the Federer Nadal rivalry have emotion that only involves Federer. Nadal is low key compared to how he is in the Djokovic Nadal rivalry.
Agreed, that's why I'm a firm believer that Nadal-Djokovic is a far better rivalry than Federer-Nadal, since the outcome of a Federer-Nadal match is usually a foregone conclusion. Plus, in a Federer-Nadal match, it always seems to me that Nadal is always the one who expresses any emotion in the match (Federer looked detached in Miami 2012, probably because he was losing badly), which is frustrating since he doesn't express his emotions. And the Djokovic-Nadal matches usually contain a lot more expressive, emotive behaviour and backstories (Djokovic's personal loss in Monte Carlo 2012 followed by Nadal's liberating battle cry of victory, and then Djokovic's sign-smashing at Roland Garros 2012). With Federer-Nadal, the only backstories are the players' accomplishments, or injuries Federer fans make up.
I don't think I've noticed any white spots on Djokovic's neck this year (you could see them during the US Open 2011 final trophy presentation), so that's one possible physical difference in Djokovic in 2012.
I think it'll be interesting to see how the pressure affects Djokovic at AO 2013. Sometimes mental pressure can cause you to freeze up and alter your physicality. So if Nadal-Djokovic happened at AO 2013, we may see Djokovic tire earlier, due to the mental pressure of facing Nadal and keeping up his Cinderella 2011 level.
I think a better test would be the 2012 AO, which already happened. Who won that again?
AO 2013 may be more interesting, since Djokovic had already beaten Nadal 6 times in a row, and there was some pressure to continue his dominance. But then Nadal crossed the line, and took him to a fifth set, and we saw that Nadal finally figured him out (beat him three straight times, twice in straights, with one set lost in rainy/muddy playing conditions). So I think an AO 2013 meeting would be more interesting, since there would be greater pressure on Djokovic to prove that he can still beat Nadal.
I hope they meet in AO2013, it will be very interesting.
You certainly are a glutton for punishment if you want to see this grindfest again. Plus,it will leave Nadal a wreck afterwards for absolutely no gain.
I really enjoyed the AO final this year a lot actually. The thread on it went bananas during the 4th and 5th sets, it was magic.
Lol yes it was. The fight from Nadal was a year in the making in that final. Almost every Nadal fan was proud of him even though he lost.
I thought he put up a good fight,but he wrecked his knees in the process. I would rather he not lose another half a season to Cvac by grinding out another 6 hour marathon. No thanks.
Met clay goat at RG
Met goat at wimbly
Met British goat at USO
Pretty unlucky I would say.
thats fred perry!!
LOL!! this cracked me up well I guess nadal fanatics like you dont know the difference between faking and actual injuries
I think he meant Scottish.
Physically compared to last year, or even say the AO, he definitely declined a bit in that department due to the wear and tear. Look at how much court time he had at the AO last year especially back to back in those semis and finals at the AO and he was still a machine beating Murray and Nadal.
Now at the USO, he gets cramped up in the finals.
Its to be expected though, you can't maintain the level he did all of last year and at the AO this year, and continue to stay there.. Thats just not reasonable.
Mentally, hes been ok. People asking him to continue doing what hes doing with dominating, thats unrealistic. Hes too much of a defensive player.
Yes I more or less agree with this
When somebody close to you "dies", it takes a year to get over it at least.
This happened to him.
We'll never know for sure if that is the reason. Hopefully it is not the reason, because some people are never the same (not just a year).
And his back played up badly in 2011 US Open final. Fairly normal for players to have physical problems late in the year.
If Rosol can beat Nadal, Djokovic surely can.
You forgot to mention he also met the Scottish goat at the Olympics.
Is it a bannable offense to say that he was likely on the juice?
I mean come on guys, when you suddenly gain incredible fitness in the matter of a month, people are gonna start to ask questions.
Olympics, USO ...Yes, I am asking if Murray is juicing.
Lets settle down. Nadal beat him on his favorite surface, red clay. The loss to Murray at the open is prob more concerning to Nole. The 2012 AO was a fresh start for Nadal and Nole had the pressure of defending a title and still won.
Nah, his fitness improved nowhere as ridiculously as Djokovic's. Guy had a five setter against Murray then played another, record setting match against Nadal, wherein their ground stroke speed actually increased over 5 sets. There is no way in hell doping wasn't involved in that match, especially considering that Djokovic was considered a wimp in the fitness department before 2011. It happened over night.
Unless you are extremely gullible or are prone to hero worship, sudden spikes of fitness are telltale signs of juicing.
Murray OTOH dodn't exactly improve over night from a guy with ****ty fitness to a mutant that shocks the world. He actually tires like you would expect a guy to tire and starts hitting weak lobs on defense once that happens. He is far less likely to juice IMO.
^^Djokovic doping, Nadal isn't the clay GOAT.
You're on a roll.
I have said the same thing about Cvac many times on here. It's so blatant and obvious that I can't believe it isn't talked about more. I guess he knows the testing in tennis is a joke so why not consult Dr. Igor to help him out? He will never be caught so he has everything to gain and nothing to lose.
What is so ridiculous about saying that Djokovic is doping? Claiming the opposite is far more ridiculous. Do you seriously think it's possible that he went from quitting against Roddick in the heat, to winning 2 grueling matches back to back while hitting the ball harder as the match progresses in 2012 without chemical assistance? It happened in a matter of months. (end of 2010-AO 2011)
When will you realize that it isn't "the others" that dope. It is the people you like and respect in all likelihood. It isn't some sort of tinfoil hat theory a la "Jews did WTC". :lol:
Also, I never said Nadal isn't the clay GOAT you liar.
You are aware that Nadal is probably just as likely to be on the juice, right?
I think they are all more than likely on something,but none as obvious as Cvac. He went from zero to a 100 overnight. I've never seen anything like that in all the years I have watched tennis. His physical transformation was beyond drastic,and there is no natural reason for it that is even remotely believable.
In the women's game, there is Errani who was nowhere to be seen and suddenly makes QF, F and SF in AO, RG and USO respectively. Oh and she also got treated by Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral, the doping doctor.
Oh and probably Henin in all likelihood, even though she's my favourite female player.
1) He quit against Roddick in 2009, not 2010...so it was a matter of 2 years, not just a couple of months.
2) The 2012 Australian Open wasn't the first time Djokovic endured grueling matches in a short span of time. Back in 2007, he battled past Stepanek in 5 sets (3 tiebreaks) at the U.S. Open then Monaco 2 rounds later in 4 sets (in 2 tiebreaks).
He made the final that year.
So I assume there's some sort of proof?
Questioning it is just as bad, honestly.
Zero to 100? Seriously? The guy had already won a slam, proved that he was more than capable of beating anyone and had been to every slam SF at least twice.
If Cilic, Tsonga, Berdych or Gasquet produced a year like Djokovic did, THAT would be going from zero to 100. Djokovic is merely a case of great luck, great talent, and everything going right in all the right moments.
1. I explicitly opened up parentheses about how it happened from late 2010 to AO 2011. Thanks for ignoring that though.
2. Do you seriously compare 5 setters against Stepanek and Monaco, both which were several rounds apart, to back to back matches against Murray and Nadal, both of which are great defenders and make you play gruelling, long rallies?
That match against Nadal was painful to watch. It lasted almost SIX hours. Yet they were hitting the ball as hard as they were hitting it in the beginning, nay, harder. That alone would be enough to raise suspicions, but no, he had to do it after beating Murray in 5 as well. :lol:
Are you seriously oblivious of the ridiculousness of Djokovic going from being the retirement king to the Nadal conqueror in terms of fitness? OH MY GOD, he beat STEPANEK in 5. Stepanek is a netrusher. Do you honestly believe that beating him in five is the same as beating Murray and Nadal in 5 while playing long ass rallies?
Not to mention, he had a much more economic style of play anyway.
Of course there's some sort of proof you gullible person. Just WATCH him. How else is it even possible.
I find it hilarious that people ask for "proof". I am not asking for him to be sent to prison. I am not asking for him to be banned from the sport. Those things would indeed require a positive test.
What you are doing is basically the following:
A: "Serena has had sex probably. She is in her 30s already and she doesn't seem to be the nun type. I think she is no longer a virgin.
B: "WHERE'S DA PROOF?!? I want to see a picture of her ruptured hymen or a picture of her vagina being penetrared by a penis, or else, she's still a virgin for me."
That is what you are.
Djokovic is a guy who is performing ridiculous feats of endurance that in themselves would be enough reason to suspect him. The fact that he managed to gain this endurance in record breaking time, coupled with the fact that he is followed by a magic doctor and the fact that tennis doping controls are almost designed to let the players get away with it as to avoid the controversy that cycling has to deal with, is more than proof enough.
Athletes dope. If a player seems as suspicious he does, you assume he's juicing, especially knowing the dire state of anti-doping in tennis.
Asking for proof is laughable, considering there's no way that proof is never going to materialize and you know it. You're basically covering your eyes.
He didn't win that slam with his fitness. In that very year, he retired against Federer with a sore throat. He got outlasted by Nadal repeatedly in 2008. In 2010, he got outlasted by TSONGA of all people.
He went from being a guy with terrible fitness to being a guy who could outlast Nadal in a very short time.
And this. To believe Cvac became a tireless monster in less than a month's time at the end of 2010 after being a physical weakling his entire career beforehand is due to a gluten-free diet/DC confidence,is positively preposterous. It is not humanly possible to do what he has done of the past 2 years without some sort of help that no gluten-free diet,or DC confidence will provide. What he has done is blatantly clear if one just cares to open their eyes and see it.
I also believe that he cycled down this year due to the Olympics,and that we will see the Dr. Igor created FrankenCvac that we saw roar through 2011 at the AO next year.
Some excellent posts. Keep up the good work.
In late 2010, Djokovic was already displaying his heightened mental and physical fortitude, especially at the U.S. Open when he came back against Troicki in the 1st round in 5 sets (in the blazing hot sun) and how he came back against Federer.
It's not all about physical endurance.
Djokovic wasn't the same player he was back in 2007 so it's not like only Murray and Nadal could provide a challenge for him. In fact, Murray wasn't a challenge at ALL for Djokovic back then; Djokovic beat Murray 6-1, 6-0 earlier that year.
Djokovic only lost 10 games on his way to the 4th round. Riding a wave of confidence, he had PLENTY left in the tank to deal with Murray and Nadal. The same can't be said for him back in 2009 when he retired against Roddick; he lost 10 games in his first match.
Well if you're accusing him of doping without proof, it's just a wild theory. And if he is doping, what happened? Why didn't he win any more slams after the Australian Open? Surely he would have juiced up enough to at LEAST win 4 in a row. Or is there an answer for that, too?
If Djokovic never won a long match, I could see your point. If Djokovic had to battle in every match until the finals, I could see your point. But none of that is true. I just see a lot of exaggeration.
If Djokovic retires from one match, that precludes him of ever winning a physically grueling one? Or 2 back-to-back? Ever? That's bad logic.
He came back against Troicki. Who cares? In what manner does that compare to what he has been doing since 2011?
No matter how well rested he was, it is ridiculous to not be suspicious of a guy winning 2 5 setters in a row, both against tough defenders and the second one being a record match.
Just because he is physically fit, doesn't mean he is always going to win. He was looking beastly against Nadal in Paris. He won 8 games in a row against him after two sets. He looked monstrous against Federer after 2 5 setters against Seppi and Tsonga. HIs fitness was never the problem.
Athletes doping is never a wild theory, especially if they are putting in eyebrow raising performances as Djokovic and in a sport as laxly controlled as tennis.
It's not just a one off. He was considered a physical wimp and in a matter of months became Rafael Nadal 2. Those back to back performances in the AO weren't just hardcore cuz of the number of sets. The final was almost 6 hours long and the speed of their shots only increased. :lol:
Who cares? You should, because you suggested that Novak couldn't deal with tough matches in the sun (referring to his retirement against Roddick). Well, he didn't retire against Troicki...in fact, he came back to win while down 2 sets to 1....in the hot sun. So to suggest that Novak, out of no where, became known for incredible endurance isn't exactly true.
Ignoring how well-rested a person is is absurd. He spent less time on court than any other player left. That's going to serve as a tremendous advantage when it comes to the later stages. This goes for any physical activity.
And Djokovic is a tough defender himself; he didn't just now become known for his defensive capabilities.
So what are you saying? He was doping and still lost and even struggled against lesser players? Isn't doping supposed to make you look superhuman? Because you can't argue both sides: that you can look both superhuman AND normal.
Djokovic's performance wasn't eyebrow-raising. He was ALWAYS capable of beating Nadal on the grandest of stages. It was just about improving his overall fitness. It wasn't improved to the degree that you are suggesting. Yes, he retired a lot but he also battled hard in the past, too. Cleaning up your fitness, tweaking your game (such as his serve) along with a huge boost in confidence (that came from his matches against Troicki, Federer and in Davis Cup in 2010) can go a long way.
That's if we ignore all the times he didn't retire in a grueling match.
You are really, really dense.
So basically, for my theory to be true, he would have to die and collapse in every macth that wen't beyond the 4th.
What a crock.
1. Djokovic being a tough defender is irrelevant to the topic. What's the point of bringing it up?
2. NO amount of rest would excuse the kind of **** he pulled off towards the end off the tournament. The old Djokovic would've been dead by the time he played Nadal, as early as the 3rd or 4th set. (just watch their match in the USO 2010)
I mean how dense can you possibly be? I mean it's almost like you are hounding for excuses to say dumb ****.
Good God in heaven. What in the 7 hells of tartarus are you talking about?
I never said he could never be beaten or lose a set. If anything, the FO was another proof of his "superhuman" endurance. He played 2 consecutive 5 setters and still moved like a beast against Federer, without even dropping a set.
NOBODY is talking about his victories. I am talking about his endurance. There is not a snowballs chance in hell that he would have pulled that off in 2010 or earlier. I mean watch his match against Federer in Shanghai. He wasn't moving even close to as well as he was moving in AO. Wasn't that AFTER his confidence boost? He lost 3 matches in a row to Federer after that.
Him not retiring just means that he stuck through instead of giving up. It doesn't mean that he wasn't tired. He was tired just like the times when he did retire.
Since 2011, HE DOESN'T EVEN TIRE in the first place, so retiring isn't even an option.
Against Murray he didn't look quite as fit, so you could argue that he is probably no longer doing it, or maybe he was tired from the match the day before (although it was short)
It is incredible how far you are willing to go to believe this stuff. If you were to make a poll about whether or not Djokovic's fitness was horrible before 2011 compared to later, just about anybody would say yes. Your argument hinges on the fact that the difference is neither drastic, nor sudden.
I just think that djokovic has lost a little confidence in himself, last year he would just go for his shots but this year he has played it a little safe (as opposed to 2011). Maybe the confidence has gone down because he hasn't been able to replicate the same success he had last year. So it must be mental, physically he is still great he can engage in long rallies and use his flexibility to defend well then become offensive which would then win him his points
dangalak: Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Exactly. My theory was that 2011 was just too grand that he never got out of its shadow (nearly missing out on another title in Australia). So now that he lost both Wimbledon and the U.S. Open, he might return to that "nothing to lose" attitude since he literally has more to gain next year. I think the pressure definitely got to him.
You think this transformation all comes down to confidence? Confidence allowed him to go from a pathetic,wheezing weakling to an indefatigable beast overnight? Cvac always had suspect endurance and stamina prior to the AO in 2011,then suddenly within a month's time he shows up a totally different animal that can run all day and never get worn out. You believe the answer to his unbelievable boost in stamina is his confidence being high? The same confidence he gained from knowing he is tireless,and will never wear out during long,brutal matches? No way in h*ll it's only from that.
It's obvious what he's doing,and it isn't a gluten-free diet,or a boost in confidence that caused his physical ability to do a complete 180 overnight. That is one of the most idiotic excuses I have ever seen,and insults the intelligence of anyone with just 2 half functioning brain cells to rub together.
Also,remember last year's Miami final that went on for nearly 4 hours in the HEAT and HUMIDITY? Not a chance Cvac would have been able to outlast Nadal at any time in any year prior to his miracle year in 2011,where he found his witch doctor Dr. Igor,in such conditions. This is the match that convinced me that something is rotten in the state of Serbia. Cvac has always struggled physically in long matches,especially in the heat. He retired from the AO in 2009 against Roddick because of the heat,and struggled mightily against Troicki at the USO in 2010 because off the heat as well. I guess his confidence/gluten-free diet caused all of his inability to handle hot weather disappear as well. :roll:
Yeah a player can't change that suddenly from 'confidence'. One second he was retiring from matches for being tired and next we has running around endlessly for hours.
I think the whole gluten free diet thing was a bunch of baloney. Him going on about his new diet reminds me of this JMac quote:
"You can tell when someone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took."
But you don't think that this quote could apply to Nadal as well?
Djokovic was clearly more confident last year he hardly lost any matches, that's the confidence I was talking about. And of course he had to do a lot behind the scenes with the help of his team to become the player he was in 2011 and I agree with you that it was not just down to a gluten free diet that wasn't the only factor he obviously done other things such as sitting in that bubble thing?( i think that's what it was ) to improve his breathing as he had a history of respiratory issues. Just like you I was surprised to see him with so much stamina when you compare his previous years on the tour. His win/loss record this year proves the huge difference in level (mentally he has gone down but physically he still can play back-to-back marathon matches and come out the winner just like at the australian open this year).
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