Does Djokovic need to avoid Nadal and Murray to win a slam outside the AO?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Backspin1183, Oct 17, 2013.

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Djokovic needs to avoid Nadal and Murray to win a slam outside Melbourne

  1. Yes, he has no chance of winning a non AO slam if he meets Murray or Nadal again

    13.2%
  2. No, he's good enough to take on Murray and Nadal at any slam

    84.2%
  3. Doesn't matter. He isn't winning a slam outside Oz

    2.6%
  1. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    Djokovic is 0-3 vs Nadal in slams in 2 years. He is also 0-2 vs Murray in slams outside of AO.

    What do you think?
     
    #1
  2. Morj

    Morj Semi-Pro

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    Novak at his highest level is greater than Murray's and (arguably) Nadal's highest level.

    The problem for him is confidence and focus in big matches, which can be fixed.
     
    #2
  3. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

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    No. Novak just needs to get his head into gear and stop going AWOL at important moments in a match.
     
    #3
  4. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    I though you were are a fair poster. In which part is Novak's highest level is greater than Nadal's? Really.
     
    #4
  5. Who Am I?

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    All Novak has to start doing is to get his confidence back to start hitting that killer BH DTL, like in 2011 and he will unbeatable again against Nadal.

    Against the talented Murray, it comes down to surfaces. On grass, Murray at his best beats Novak at his best. On medium/fast US Open hard courts, it's very close with Murray perhaps having a slight edge. AO, obviously Novak and FO, LOL!
     
    #5
  6. Who Am I?

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    2011 mate.
     
    #6
  7. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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  8. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    The 3rd set of USO 2011! Or whichever set Djokovic won.
     
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  9. Omega_7000

    Omega_7000 Hall of Fame

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    If Djokovic brings his 2011 game back, he can take out both Nadal and Murray back to back.
     
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  10. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

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    common sense prevails.
     
    #10
  11. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    Where has Djokovic 2011 game gone? He said at Wimby he was playing better than he did in 2011 but as we saw he was no match for Murray 2013.
     
    #11
  12. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    2011 this, 2011 that. Djokovic fans :lol: how about 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012 and 2013? Checkmate. :oops: Enough already!
     
    #12
  13. Who Am I?

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    Just because he said he was playing better than ever, doesn't mean it's the case. Federer was saying last year after winning Wimbledon, that he is playing better than ever, but obviously every tennis fan knows that Federer was at his best between 2004-07 period.
     
    #13
  14. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

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    What about having 7 months off to heal a damaged ego, to only come back when the field is at's weakest since 2004.
     
    #14
  15. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    I'd trust the player himself over the fans who picture him to be perfect all conquering monster.
     
    #15
  16. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Nadal's 2010 US super-service version will defeat any version of Djokovic's 2011.
     
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  17. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    Again, where is Djokovic 2011's game??? Why can't he bring it back instead of getting beat in slams by Nadal and Murray?

    Was 2011 really that great or was it a fluke?

    It's been over 2 years, man!
     
    #17
  18. Omega_7000

    Omega_7000 Hall of Fame

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    You cannot be so naive! Can you?

    What do they expect them to say...I'm playing pathetic and can never match the level of play I had in 2011? :lol:
    You really think Fed was playing better in 2012 than in 2004-2007 period? :oops:

    They are trying to portray confidence...Having a mental edge is extremely important in tennis.
     
    #18
  19. JoshT

    JoshT Semi-Pro

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    Yeah, i'm sure Nadal quit tennis, hung up his racquet for 7 months and waited until the "game" was as weak as it could possibly be, then came back.
    That sounds like something he would do, yeah.

    Seems to me like he's beaten all the top players this year when they were pretty close to their peaks, maybe not Fed, but still. That can't be talked down, at all.
    This year was monumental, as it would be for anyone else to have had the kind of year he's had.
     
    #19
  20. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    I could see him perhaps never winning another non Australian Open, regardless of facing Nadal or Murray or not. That he is likely to need to face Nadal or Murray, only makes it that much more obvious.
     
    #20
  21. Who Am I?

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    So when Nadal says in his press conferences, that he isn't the favourite for his next match, do you believe him, no?
     
    #21
  22. helterskelter

    helterskelter Professional

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    I would almost never trust what the players say. It's very hard to diagnose ourselves, and players have been wrong about many things in the past.

    Just last week, there was a discussion of Nadal's stated preference for fast hard courts over slower ones, and comparison to Sampras's stated preference for slow hard courts over faster ones. Both views are mistaken (unless we grant that a player can prefer a type of court but be better on the other type of court) and only seem at all comprehensible because there's such widespread confusion about what it means to call something a fast or a slow court.

    Sampras won the US Open five times, and he won the Australian Open twice. He made eight finals at the former, and three at the latter.

    That really says all that needs to be said about which type of hard court he did better on.

    Nadal does indeed like the ball to fly through the air quickly. But the speed of the ball through the air is not what's being talked about when we refer to a court as fast. That's much more closely correlated to the height of the bounce, and Nadal famously needs the ball to bounce high.
     
    #22
  23. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Nope. Nadal served arguably better in the 2011 Wimbledon final and lost badly.
     
    #23
  24. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    I have to ask you what do you gain by making a post like this. You need to check your head first than post.
     
    #24
  25. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Is it wrong to contradict you? Nadal's average first serve speed was higher at Wimbledon, unless you think he was hitting the corners better at the USO he served atleast as well at Wimbledon.
     
    #25
  26. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Djokovic needs to take the fight to his opponent from the very first set.

    These days he seems to rely a bit too much on his fitness, allowing his opponent to take the first set, perhaps thinking that he can come from behind to win the match.

    But when going up against dangerous opponents, he must try all his might to take the first set. Then he will have a much easier time managing the rest of the match.
     
    #26
  27. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Are you really arguing this matter with me? Seriously. Of course on grass his serve will look effectively than on hard. Everyone does. That doesn't mean he served better at Wimbledon than US open. Do you know how many service game he was broken at Us open 2010? Have you not watched the Sampras-like service game from Nadal in the 3rd set? Go watch youtube again and refresh your memory first. And if you have something to say I will welcome your views.
     
    #27
  28. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Nadal may have served nearly as well at Wimby in 2011, but his ground game at the USO in 2010 was leagues better than in the Wimby 2011 final.

    And Nadal didn't lose that final "badly". If you want to know what losing badly in a slam final is then look no further than the 2008 RG final. Now that was an a** whooping.
     
    #28
  29. Omega_7000

    Omega_7000 Hall of Fame

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    This message is hidden because Clarky21 is on your ignore list.




    Ahh...........Much better. :)
     
    #29
  30. Omega_7000

    Omega_7000 Hall of Fame

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    Anyone notice how the graph is showing the middle finger to OP? :-D
     
    #30
  31. powerangle

    powerangle Legend

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    2011 Novak may have been great, or it may have been a fluke. Either way, it shows that Djokovic at his absolute peak is probably a bit better than Nadal at his best (fluke just shows that Novak can't bring that level back again, and that Nadal is overall the better and greater player, which he is).

    As tennis fans, we understand that the mental aspect is a huge part of the game...and Novak has mentally collapsed in some important moments in big matches as of late. Example: Nadal winning the third set at USO this year was more a result of Djokovic's level and focus dropping (compared to the second set) than Nadal raising his game. And Nadal was far closer to his best than Djokovic was, in the first and fourth sets. Novak had already mentally checked out when the fourth set came around.
     
    #31
  32. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I said he served as well in the final not throughout the whole event. I know how many he was broken in yes 5. And lol at Nadal's serve being compared to Sampras. Playing Youhzny and Verdasco would make many servers look like Sampras I'm sure.

    In the Wimbledon final he had a higher average first serve speed and his first serve % was atleast as good. That has nothing to do with court. Not to mention Djokovic was returning better in 2011 than 2010 by a long way.

    You're a sensitive one aren't you. Djokovic beat Nadal badly, even with that blip in the third Novak never looked like losing.
     
    #32
  33. Who Am I?

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    Federer lost to clay GOAT on his worst surface. But Nadal being the 2nd best grass courter player of this era, what was his excuse for losing to an average grass court player like Djokovic in the manner that he did? 6-1 in the 4th set. LOL! :lol:
     
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  34. powerangle

    powerangle Legend

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    LOL exactly. If Backspin is going to believe whatever comes out of the players' mouths as gospel, then apparently he believes Nadal is rarely ever the favorite in whatever match he is in, in all his career. And that Federer last year was playing the best tennis of his career. Please...
     
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  35. powerangle

    powerangle Legend

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    Djokovic at his best is better than Murray's best and probably a bit better than Nadal's best. But mentally Nadal is quite a bit stronger than Novak, and overall is a better player than Novak.
     
    #35
  36. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Again on what surface are we talking about? On clay and on grass it is clearly Nadal. On hard then it is debatable.
     
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  37. merwy

    merwy Legend

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    He said "arguably". And I can somewhat agree with him. Peak Djokovic looks pretty much unbeatable, even when playing Nadal. There's nothing in his post that doesn't make him a "fair poster".
     
    #37
  38. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Djoko could beat Murray and Nadal at any of the other slams. Djoko's head is his weakness and his serve can still go a little weird but very rarely now. Nadal is streaky and can have a few matches where he looks totally out of place on a fast court. Murray can lose to Djoko on any surface - depends on who has hottest hand.

    So, if Djoko is in form and holds it together, I see him even beating Nadal at RG and certainly could take Murray anywhere. Probably doesn't matter for Murray because Murray has yet to prove he can recover from back surgery.
     
    #38
  39. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    I agree with that. Then if we are talking about their career peak levels (which outside of hard courts Nadal is way past now, even on his best current days) Nadal's would blow Djokovic's away on clay, and probably even grass.
     
    #39
  40. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    Sorry, just to be clear, we're talking about the guy who led 4-2 in the fifth set of the RG semi against Nadal this year, right?
     
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  41. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    I can agree if it is on hard court. But not on clay and grass.
     
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  42. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic has yet to win a set against Murray on grass. They have had only 2 grasscourt encounters so far but each one was a straight sets victory for Murray.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
    #42
  43. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    Thanks for bringing this up. Murray's game in recent matches has rattled Novak on grass and hard too.

    What I like about Murray vs Djokovic is that Andy can force Novak to play more like him. And you can't beat someone at their own game so easily.

    Notice how Djokovic hits the ball a lot harder vs Nadal but vs Murray he doesn't do it that often. Andy, unlike Rafa, doesn't give Novak much pace or bounce and would change the pace of the ball in the blink of an eye.
     
    #43
  44. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Grass court goes to Murray. Clay court goes to Djokovic. Fast hard court advantage Murray. Slow hard court advantage Djokovic.
     
    #44
  45. Morj

    Morj Semi-Pro

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    I'll admit to having some djokovic bias since im his fan. But all i said was at his highest level, he is arguably better than Nadal. I am referencing 2011 here.
     
    #45
  46. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Are we on the same page talking about Djokovic's hard court peak level? And not including clay and grass court peak level?
     
    #46
  47. powerangle

    powerangle Legend

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    I meant overall. But as far as specific surfaces, then IMO Novak's best on hard courts > Nadal's best on hard court.

    On clay and grass, then Nadal is better at their respective bests.

    But my original point was that Djokovic doesn't have to avoid either Nadal or Murray at any slam. If he is playing well and (more importantly these days) focusing well, he can take them out at any slam (he has a good chance)...and therefore doesn't "need to" avoid them, per the OP's post. Nadal is hardly playing his best on grass these days...Novak has the ability to take him out if he is playing and focusing well. Novak has a shot at RG too, as Nadal is prone to some mental lapses himself (as we have seen at this year's RG).

    Nope, no avoidance needed. Novak just needs to get his head together. He clearly has the game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
    #47
  48. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Overall? That's too vague for an answer. It than depends on how a person sees a players level. It means it will differ how I see it and how you see it. I think we should decide what surface we are talking about when we talk about peak levels.
     
    #48
  49. powerangle

    powerangle Legend

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    Overall as in the calendar year, as there are more hard court tournaments (outdoor and indoor conditions) than clay and grass tournaments combined.

    As far as surfaces, I already broke it down for you.

    The thing is, Nadal can beat Novak on any surface, but the same is true vice-versa. In that vein, then no, Novak doesn't have to avoid Nadal (and Murray). If Novak still has mental issues he needs to sort out, then yes Novak would have to avoid them. But if Novak is playing with a lot of focus and belief, then he doesn't have to avoid them at all. He can certainly beat them, at the AO or otherwise.
     
    #49
  50. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Not at the French open. He tried 5 times and failed 5 times. And this year was his best chance. He is like Federer so I don't agree that he doesn't have to avoid Nadal at FO.
     
    #50

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