Does India have the worst sports results per capita?

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Brett UK, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There is another subtle reason which applies in urban areas. In the US, there are a number of jobs where someone can show up for work at a known time, leave at a known time, and then are free to hit the gym, play tennis, work on their 67 Corvette, or go running. In urban India, the commute is difficult, whether or not you have your own transportation. Also, in the US, workers take off for dentist or doctor appointments during the day, effectively not working during that time, but in India, doctors and dentists have their offices open till 9 pm and workers are expected to go after work. All this reduces the time available to pursue any recreational activity.

    This is very clearly seen in the classical outsourcing scenario where the US workers come in at 9 and leave at 5, while their Indian colleagues wait till 9 pm to start meetings with the US, go home at midnight, and roll in again at 10:30 in the morning. Who can play tennis with this lifestyle?

    I worked with someone in one our India offices and he seemed to be at work day and night. He is a single guy. I thought he was very motivated and preferred to work since he had no family commitments. Recently he confessed that power outages have become so frequent where he lives that he prefers to be in the office because it always has A/C because of the backup power!
     
  2. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    It does work that way and we do have many more great champions than Serbia & Switzerland.

     
  3. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Have or had?
     
  4. BlackLendl

    BlackLendl New User

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    Even if India emphasized sports in their culture. They still (as a nation) are primarily vegetarian! Everyone knows the consumption of meat creates aggressive behavior which in turn manufactures tenacity thus producing tremendously competitive athletes !!!!!.................... "Yo Ravi! Get sum of dis Steak sandwich kid!!!
     
  5. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Brilliant lol.
     
  6. KtM

    KtM Rookie

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    Brilliant lol you forced sureshs to imply Federer is a champion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I was talking about Waw the AO champion and Hingis before that
     
  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There is some truth to this.

    But there are couple of practical issues other than tradition or religious beliefs. First, meat is relatively much more costly in India, and second, lack of availability of large-scale refrigerated transport and storage (and power outages where there is refrigeration) reduces confidence in meat. Seeing a lamb carcass hanging from a butcher's shop which is buzzing with flies is much more disturbing than watching a few flies hovering over some tomatos.

    BTW, it is a myth that Indians are vegetarian. Muslims, Christians and Sikhs are not usually vegetarian, and among Hindus, the warrior classes traditionally have always consumed meat, including the mythological popular figures of Rama and Krishna. It is only a small class of people of priestly traditions who were forbidden from eating meat, and they too had exemptions in two states. The true vegetarians are only the Jains.
     
  9. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Jains are not the only "true vegetarians". They avoid garlic and onions as well as meat, but they consume dairy products. The vegan diet leaves out dairy as well. You can actually be extremely fit and strong by being vegetarian and it has zero to do with "aggressiveness". Here's a prime example. This Indian wrestler won a bronze medal and hear what he has to say. I'd say he's fit and "aggressive" enough. There are reasons why the % of vegetarians in the U.S. has risen steeply from 1% in 1971 to about 13% as of 2013. In a 2013 study, 13% of Americans now identify themselves as either vegetarian (6%) and or vegan (7%). People see all the benefits of a vegetarian diet without any downsides.


    http://www.petaindia.com/features/sushil-kumar/

    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Susheel Kumar competed in the 74 kg category. There are three categories beyond it culminating at 125 kg. Can he compete in those without meat?

    Dara Singh the most famous Indian wrestler was 127 kg heavy. His diet?

    Lunch: One chicken a lot of vegetables, bread and butter and ghee in abundance which he takes even not in training. Dinner: One chicken with thick gravy, Chappathi Roti and a pound of grapes. He winds up the day before going to bed with three pints of milk.
     
  11. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Yes, just ask some bodybuilders.

    http://www.greatveganathletes.com/bodybuilders

    [​IMG]



    These are myths held by folks that aren't vegetarian and have never reaped the benefits of that diet, with plenty of protein sources as well. Many sports require athletes that are not built sumo wrestlers or heavyweight wrestlers who are strong yet not agile. If you want to put on a lot of mass and fat/weight, don't opt for a healthy vegetarian diet.

    Read about these ancient vegetarian warriors who were fitter than their peers by a long shot.

    http://forbesindia.com/printcontent/19352

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
  12. BlackLendl

    BlackLendl New User

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    Look, I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans or veggie athletes or ancient warriors of the herbavorian power! All I'm saying is......................................................................"13 % of the U.S. Population admitted to being vegetarian and/or vegan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Good Lawd!!! That 13% more people I will never trust.... J/k but not really (= /
     
  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Those vegan bodybuilders in the first link may have been meat eaters in their formative years, i.e., till age 18. And their current "vegan" diet probably includes a huge amount of protein powder which should not be in fairness called food. You need to look at older wrestlers like the late Dara Singh who did not have access to artificial supplements and see what he ate in order to fight in the 125 kg category.

    There was an article in the Hindu when I was in India recently to take care of my father. I actually thought of you when I read it! The article interviewed several doctors who said they are treating Indians who have become "vegans" after reading Western magazines. They suffer from all kinds of problems. Mothers on a vegan diet produced low-weight babies with problems. The doctors said that traditional Indian vegetarian diet always included a lot of milk and milk products and somehow most vegetarians were OK with drinking that animal product. When the milk was left out because the person was apeing the Western vegans, the consequences were disastrous.
     
  14. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    Meat ~ Violence is usually confused to conclude Vegan ~ Lack of strength.

    Of course the meat eating populations have exhibited consistently a much larger capacity for arbitrary violence, which is in some ways tautological as one has to have capacity for arbitrary violence just to eat meat.
     
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Couple of things:

    India is the only data point since no other country has a vegetarian tradition, including the ones where Buddhism has a lot of influence. So it is difficult to conclude anything.

    Vegetarianism is often blamed for how the place succummbed to invasions. THe idea never goes away. Gandhi tried to eat beef in his youth because of the notion that the British could colonize India because they ate beef.

    Today a new self-confident vegetarian movement is rising, and the people are aware of what to do to avoid deficiencies.
     
  16. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    This is the problem with these discussions: it becomes an argument over religious/ethical positions rather than evidence on which diet is more conducive to athletic success.

    I tend to side with those who think that animal protein and fat consumption is correlated with larger body size and better athletic performance. A number of studies seem to suggest that milk consumption, for instance, leads to taller adult height (something that is useful in tennis serving).

    Some of the famous examples cited in the US (Carl Lewis) aren't very convincing. Lewis went vegan, did fine for about a year and then his performance plummeted. This is cited as though he was vegan his whole life by people who are pushing veganism for religious/ethical reasons.
     
  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think this should put an end to citing Susheel Kumar as someone who is a world-class wrestler (albeit not in the heavy weight categories) and vegetarian: "protein-rich supplements" is probably code for protein powders of professional grade.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/07/24/what-indias-olympic-athletes-eat/

    "To complement his diet, he also regularly takes protein-rich supplements and multivitamins."
     
  18. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    Both. Perhaps you've heard of the Williams sisters?

     
  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    C'mon you know very well we are talking about men here
     
  20. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    I crushed your silly argument in an instant. Get you billions of people into sport and stop whining. Tata motors & Bollywood will sponsor. No problem.

     
  21. syke

    syke Professional

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  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Bollywood does sponsor - some movie stars own IPL cricket league teams. And cricket is really huge. Other sports will eventually come up too.
     
  23. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Well, the job kind of gets boring :)
     
  24. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Suresh, have you ever been vegetarian? No. I have and have reaped so many health benefits until the age of 45. I am stronger and fitter now than in high school and I've maintained a pure vegetarian diet all my life. It's helped me so much healthwise and I always discuss these issues with my doctors. It's as easy as making sure you get enough/plenty of protein from such sources as milk, dairy products, whey protein (protein powder), and legumes (beans, chick peas, lentils, etc.). You have no issues building muscle while growing and you do it without the saturated fat/cholesterol issues. All the athletes cited all point to their diets as being very important for their performance. The fact is that vegetarianism is certainly not the problem for Indian sports. In fact, if athletes there would seek out healthy vegetarian diets, en masse, they would do a lot better than trying to go with eating more hamburgers and western fast foods that have crept into Indian culture. Indian kids would actually be healthier if they ate healthy, well balanced vegetarian diets as opposed to much of the "fast food" they eat particularly in urban areas where people are busy. When I visit India, I see a ton on younger people that eat more meat than their older relatives, yet they are also far less fit and basically soft. Americans that are athletes and then become vegetarian for health reasons as they age see first hand that they have no issues maintaining strength. There are myriads of examples out there.

    The biggest issues for India in terms of sports performance are corruption, lack of sports infrastructure, and low effective sports participation. For India to succeed at Olympic sports and worldwide sports such as football (soccer) it will take decades, yet they have to start putting the infrastructure in place. Culturally, their should be an emphasis on getting kids to look up from their computer screens some and pursue more sports. The will must be there and then there has to be follow through in the implementation of sports programs. There is a huge talent pool in India that could be cultivated, yet it will take time. Martina Navratilova is vegetarian. She knows a thing or two about fitness and diet. Quarterback Joe Namath, track star Carl Lewis, baseball coach Tony La Russa, basketball player Robert Parish, baseball slugger Prince Fielder, iron man Dave Scott, tennis legend Billie Jean King, and football star Tony Gonzalez are all vegetarian athletes as well. British runner Emil Voight was a vegetarian runner in the early 1900's. He won the five mile race and set an Olympic record in 1908.

     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I am not talking in general. I am just saying that the claims of world-class athletes being vegetarian are very suspect given the protein powders they take. I cannot accept taking such supplements and then claiming to be a vegetarian. It is very misleading to others unless divulged explicitly right at the beginning.

    I grew up in a vegetarian family and regret the fact that there was no consciousness of the need for protein supplements back then.

    My son is vegetarian out of choice but I made sure he got protein supplements.

    My wife's younger brother is a health freak who tells everyone he is a vegetarian. What he won't tell them is that he has 2 eggs and whey protein powder every single day.

    The doctors who were interviewed for the article I mentioned cautioned against going vegan due to the lack of milk. Given that a large portion of the Indian population suffers from lactose intolerance, I think they are better off eating meat if they cannot take milk (or having protein powder and claiming to be a vegetarian).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  26. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Roman gladiators were vegetarians, so there's another prime example Suresh.

    http://www.historytoday.com/blog/news-blog/kathryn-hadley/gladiators-were-vegetarians

    Being vegan vs. vegetarian is a different, yet related issue. With your son you're seeing this first hand then. I was focusing on this concept that you couldn't have great athletes while having vegetarian diets, with a well balanced approach. Yet being pure vegetarian, with no eggs, and protein supplements (say whey protein shakes with milk/bananas) is a great option. You can do it without protein supplements as well, yet you need to work harder than with the other sources of protein. Lactose intolerance? I'm not sure if the incidence of lactose intolerance is any higher in India as opposed to the U.S. or elsewhere. Even idlis, dosas, dals and chick peas give you protein. In my opinon, if as a country, there was an effort made to get kids out and playing sports daily while staying off of computers and phones you'd see a big difference. There needs to be a cultural shift, where parents encourage sporting endeavors for health reasons. There are a lot of stressed out kids in India who would benefit greatly from more exercise and less time in front of screens. If you start young, you could create a large pool of potential Olympic athletes. For the best performers, facilities, competition, sports nutrition, training facilities and proper coaching will be required. This will all take planning, investment and effort. Yet, the talent is there. It hasn't been properly cultivated so far and of course cricket is seems to be all consuming.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  27. counterpuncher64

    counterpuncher64 New User

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    Yes, India probably does have the worst results per capita, but who cares? Per capita is a foolish way to scale sports performance since population is poorly correlated with athletic success. A better criteria would be success:GDP or better yet, success:athletic spending. Capita is stupid, however, and discriminates against poor, overpopulated, 3rd world countries.
     
  28. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    Far from suresh's "drying up pool of old farts"
    suresh would never have reached the stellar heights of Bionicity on a mere veg diet. He needed the power of bacon, chicken wings and roast beef (with gravy) (and a side order of french fries) to cross 30k poasts.
     
  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No I don't eat those things. I don't like most meat preparations. Many people think I am vegetarian.
     
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is not what the article says:

    Gladiators were mostly vegetarians

    The results of the bone analyses revealed that gladiators ate considerably more plants and very little animal protein compared to the average inhabitant of Ephesus.




    I am also mostly a vegetarian.
     
  31. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    That's the headline, yet I agree, some were vegetarian, while others ate some meat along with a primarily vegetarian diet. This a great example of the fitness you can have with a vegetarian diet. This would shock many. Legumes are a great source of proetin. Here's the full article.


     
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think "mostly" here refers to each gladiator, not over the collection of gladiators, i.e. each gladiator ate a little meat.

    Also, it seems that they ate less meat so that they could have room for more carbohydrates to increase subcutaneous fat. That is a bad goal healthwise for those who are not gladiators.

    It would lead to diabetes and we don't have that statistic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  33. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Suresh, they did not have a meat rich diet for sure and obviously some had to be vegetarian. Nothing in the article indicates that they all ate some meat daily or regularly. There is nothing that indicates that ALL of them ate some meat. Some were vegetarians and some I'm sure may have eaten some meat yet it certainly was not a staple. They relied heavily on carbs and legumes, including barley and vegetables. They obviously had some fat but were not "fat".

    I'm sure they had plenty of muscle, and they did it with no meat or minimal meat. Many advocates of a high meat diet would argue that this would not be possible for Roman gladiators. This is but another prime example of athletes relying heavily on a vegetarian diet for their fitness and health. So, from ancient times and in modern times we have examples of very fit/strong athletes who rely on a healthy vegetarian diet. They could not have fought that way for hours on end without tremendous fitness. Your son has a great idea I submit and supplementing the protein is a good idea as he is growing, yet does he eat a lot of dals/legumes for example. With Indian food, that's a great source of protein. Idlis also have protein for example and they are very healthy.

    Here's another article on this subject.

    http://archive.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html

    More detail here:

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/487228-roman-gladiator-diet/

     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  34. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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  35. Dedans Penthouse

    Dedans Penthouse Hall of Fame

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    Meat rich or veggie rich......lamb saag or aloo gobi.

    If it's Indian, it's all good ..

    Tumeric or not tumeric, that is the question.
     

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