Does Modern Tennis Exist?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JohnYandell, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    It's All So Easy...

    Wegner claimed in one of the famous nuked threads that virtually any technical problem a club player faced could be magically erased by watching his DVDs.

    I mean I like the sham wow commericals as much as anyone, but developing a gorgeous effective esthetically satisfying game that produces real competitive results is a little harder than drying your car.

    It's been well established that true mastery of any athletic or musical or academic skill takes roughly 10,000 hours of practice or about 10 years.

    Not everyone is going to take it to that level obviously but part of the satisfaction of any endeavor is the challenge.

    Every competitive player myself included has played matches where everything felt ridiculously easy--you are in a flowing rhythm, you can hit with power and dominate the court creating openings and hitting winners.

    That isn't going to come from watching a DVD. Yes, I feel most players when exposed to simple model positions with use of video and video feedback can make immediate progress--but mastering that as part of a honed game takes time and the ability to work the change through at increasing levels of difficulty.

    You see this with even the greatest players in the world lilke Murray or Djokovic that achieved more and more of their potential over time.

    That is the great satisfaction of becoming a player. It's not something you can learn in two hours or two days. In fact it can be a lifetime process--that's what makes tennis great, not bogus miracle promises.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
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  2. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    WV,

    Actually Laver and McEnroe and Philipoussis all hit with a straight arm. And most of the modern players today hit with the double bend.

    But you are right. Some of the ways the elements are combined, particularly with the advantages of the strings, are prevelent in a way never before seen.

    Ironically, they are not actually elements in Wegner's so called "modern" system. I'm working toward explaining that but trying to build a systematic step by step presentation.
     
    #52
  3. Mulach

    Mulach New User

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    John,

    I wonder if you and Oscar are just talking past each other.

    I've just come across this swing/pull across the body tip. Before now, for some time I've been working on split step, unit turn, pat the dog, drive the swing with legs and core, passive arm extends through the ball.

    Now I am doing the same thing except that instead of a passive arm, I am actively pulling the arm up and across. And guess what, my extension through the ball is better than ever. Do you know why? Because that active pull of the arm is complemented by my right shoulder rotating almost a full shoulder width through the ball as I pull my arm up and across.

    So do you see it? The tip from Oscar about pulling the arm up and acros is leading to exactly what you are saying should hapen based on high speed video analyss. Why can't you guys reconcile that? Too much ego on both sides?

    For me adding the pull across the body seems like it will be a game changer. I've never hit a forehand as hard as I have following Oscars tip. And for the record, I'm doing it with a full shoulder turn and loading/unloading my legs. Oscar doesn't say don't do that. Why do you assume he advocates that?

    If you bothered to test his coaching, you would realize that swinging across actually ENCOURAGES a full shoulder turn. And a full shoulder turn ENCOURAGES loading the legs to maintain balance.

    You guys fight all you want. I will reap the benefits on the court.

    If you were to get over yourselves, you would see that you are coaching the same results. JY via what happens in high speed video. OW via simple tips that lead to what is seen in high speed video.

    What else can we players say to get you two to realize that you are debating feel vs real and in this case OW feel should lead to JY real?
     
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  4. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    M,

    Glad you are having success. If you read the rest of the thread or if you were more familiar with my work you would see that the finish or the extension of the forward swing and how to achieve it is key. This includes, obviously, the across dimension but not the limited forward dimension and bicep scissor move Wegner advocates. That a situational exception and different than most drives.

    The preparation is also key and it sounds like yours, as you describe it, is good. And yes I would agree great preparation leads to great extension. But coming across and extending are two independent components.

    I have absolutely no need to reconcile theories with Wegner or anyone else. There is no need in this world for unifying conflicting viewpoints. If anything the contrast is a way of sharpening your own views.

    I always consider new data when I see it. I try to integrate and learn and evolve and form my own views. It's ongoing. Those who wish to agree or disagree are welcome.

    If you were more familiar with Wegner's work you'd see that the great preparation you are describing isn't part of his system and in fact what he believes undermines it.

    That's just my view and as I said what others such as yourself get out of my work or anyone else's is there for the taking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
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  5. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    exactly, it is nothing more than a label. "Modern Art" for example covers a period roughly from around 1860 to the 1970's and includes other art movements including Impressionism, Cubism, Surrealism, Abstract Expressionism and Pop Art - in other words it included all sorts of philosophies and went through many transitions during its existence and was considered a period where artists threw aside the spirit of traditionalism in favour of experimentation. If Oscar feels this is what his teaching method is all about then in those terms the Label "Modern Tennis" is more than appropriate.
     
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  6. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Are players such as Sharapova American or Russian?

    In her case she has a Russian flag icon or the letters "RUS" next to her name on TV but she is a product of the American tennis system.

    Others such as Azarenka are a mix having moved to the US to train as a teenager.

    I wonder how many of the other top WTA and ATP players received some or most of their training in US facilities but still nominally play for other countries (eg Andy Murray now lives and trains in Florida).
     
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  7. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    The WTA is a different sport altogether.

    P.S. Sharapova is Russian. There is more to being a player than where you trained. You do make a valid point though.
     
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  8. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    they don´t ´nominally´play for other countries. they play for their home country.
    many players train at least part time in Spain nowadays, maybe more so than the U.S. that doesn´t make them spanish.
    as reliquis said, you make a good point though:)
     
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  9. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Nominally was poor choice of words on my part. Sorry bout that.

    I guess what I'm saying is that when we bemoan the lack of American talent we should remember that America is producing fine players who happen to play for other countries (although in Sharapova's case I would argue that she's culturally American rather than Russian...and she clearly prefers living here rather than over there).

    That's also a good point about the Spanish School O Tennis. Didn't Murray train there too?

    This fall I spoke with some coachs at an ITF juniors event. They said this is a touchy subject in the business. Some folks feel kids from other countries take slots that might otherwise go to Americans since they are willing to pay full cost. Doesn't make sense to me but I'm completely ignorant of the world of up and coming juniors. Talking to parents at the same event it seems like a really tough life given the ultra low probability of success.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  10. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    as i said, you made a good point about the american system producing champion players. attending u.s colleges on a tennis scholarship is very popular over here in europe as well.
     
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  11. JohnYandell

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    Ash,

    Any tennis played in the modern era or teaching system taught in the modern era can be called modern. That was my starting point.

    Just because you call it "modern" doesn't mean a teaching system corresponds with the way top pro players play much that less that it produces similar technical results for the average player. One of the most important points here is that if you are going to claim to teach players to "play like the pros" that you understand and can describe how they play, can distinguish the huge spectrum of techniques included in this, can make choices about what elements you are trying to teach, and have a methodology tied to and designed to produce those elements. This is where, unfortunately, truth and marketing hype diverge in the woods.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  12. Mulach

    Mulach New User

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    This is the part I believe you should reconsider.

    I agree if all that happens is the arm pulls across there won't be extension. So where does extension come from? I believe in an open stance, it comes from the shoulder rotating about the core. Where does your analysis say it comes from in an open stance? Surely it isn't the arm straightening out through impact and since it is open stance it can't be body displacement from forward weight transfer.

    Here is my hypothesis why "pulling across works". When you pull across by default the shoulder will come around. This happens without having to think about it. The harder or faster you try to pull across the more that shoulder comes around to the chin or past it. So even if you don't do a unit turn, you will stil get extension from pulling across as the shoulder displaces forward from in line with your ear to in line with your chin.

    I'd love to hear your expert opinion on my hypothesis.
     
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  13. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    The hand and racket are moving in 3 directions. Up out and across. This is true regardless of stance. Yes the upper body is rotating. But the shoulder muscles are raising the arm and extending it forward and out on a curve as well, independent of the torso rotation.

    There is no one finish or extension position. You can flatten the curve of the swing, keep the arm in the hitting position longer, extend more, and come across with more spacing between the hand and torso.

    You can come across sooner and more sharply and bend the elbow sooner. And infinity in between depending on the ball you receive and the shot you are hitting.

    All those finishes are possible with open, semi-open and neutral stances. There is no such thing as one open stance and that is important to understand.

    If you want to understand this and see it with the top players in high speed video with frame by frame analysis you can take me up on the same offer as others and get a free week on Tennisplayer. I've spent about 15 years studying these various permutations and the results are all there in the Advanced Tennis section.
    It's much easier when you can actually see it. videotennis@metricmail.com
     
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  14. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    The Forward Swing

    So from the fully prepared turn position with the left arm stretched and the racket at the top of the backswing, the racket drops and then starts forward.

    There is a huge discussion about the meaning the the pat the dog move or the supination of the forearm or whatever you want to call it, and yeah, probably that is a key to the stretch shorten cycle and the turbocharging of the forward swing from the shoulder as Brian Gordan has so brilliantly documented.

    You can see in the video how the first part of the forward swing is quite linear from the bottom of the pat position.

    And yes many players esepcially women even on the tour take the racket back behind the plane of the body and still manage to generate 90mph forehands.

    And players such as Del Potro have minimal pat the dog action.

    I have experimented with all that myself and find the minimal backswing to the right with the face slightly closed is efficient and powerful and encourage everyone to try that for themselves.

    However, regardless of how close you are to a type 1 or ATP style forehand, there are key components in the forward swing that all good forehands share.

    First the swing is from the inside out toward the contact, and then on a curve from right to left after contact and out into the followthrough.

    There is no sudden, violent upward pulling across. The data shows the real acceleration begins about the time the butt of the racket truly starts forward and in that few fractions of a second maxes out around contact.

    So what then is the point of the followthrough? The followthrough is the indication of the path of the racket at contact. And for the average player, focusing on keys in the followthrough can lead to shaping the swing to achieve the correct direction of the racket head at contact, as well as controlling the amount of spin.

    The followthrough is outward, upward and across on a curve.
    The whole forward swing is a relatively flat arc that starts moving from the player's left to right and finishes moving right to left.

    This is true in modern tennis and it's true in classical tennis and it true for all good forehands. There are a myriad of possible swing combinations, but to develop a basic, moderate topspin power drive, there is a key point to focus on.

    Make the racket pass through this extension point and the rest happens automatically, assuming you have the preparation described above.

    This point as I described many times before is with the wrist at about eye level, the racket hand at about the left edge of the toso, and with good spacing of about a foot and a half to two feet--depending partially on arm length of the player and grip style.
     
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  15. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    More on the Forward Swing:

    "Modern" tennis exponents will try to tell you that classical players didn't swing across, or sometimes they acknowledge that they did, but say it's classical teaching that teaches players to finish on the right side.

    This is patently ridiculous. Even coaches such as Robert Lansdorp who use exercises to stresss the outward power dimension focusing on the outward swing component have produced players--in his case multiple grand slam champions-- who still make the finish point described above.

    Ironcially as we will see, these classical players like Sampras who could not, allegedly compete with players using "modern" technique are actually following Wegner's precepts. It's bizarre and just shows a lack of study and research about how the game has actually evolved.

    That's right Wegner's finish is really old style classical and doesn't account for how pro players finish in the modern game.
    More on that in future posts, but note for now we have a preparation model that was never used by classical much less modern players and a finish that is used mainly by classical players Wegner and his disciples denigrate as being old school, traditional, obsolete, not "modern." Is it any wonder his views are seen with such skepticism by the vast majority of working coaches in the "modern" game?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  16. JohnYandell

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    The Wraps

    After players reach the extension point described above, they can complete the swing with essentially 4 variations of the wrap or deceleration phase.

    The first is the old school over the shoulder wrap that was used by every great player in the so-called classical era, from Tilden to Kramer to Gonzalez, etc etc.

    Paradoxically this is the finish Wegner calls modern. It's not. You see it today in some players as the norm, particularly among the women, and most players especially Djokovic use it to greater or lesser extent.

    But there are 3 other finishes than total far more of the total compared to the old over the shoulder finish. These are a wrap around the shoulder (rather than over), the wrap around below the shoulder, and the reverse, which eventually ends back on the same side where the swing started.

    Paradoxically, it was that crusty dinosaur of extinct classical tennis, Robert Lansdorp, who was among the first to see the wave and adjust his teaching accordingly. As he once told me, "the only guys I see finishing over the shoulder all the time are old and bald." In a seminal article years ago on Tennisplayer he outlined how he trained players in the new multiple finishes required in the "modern" game...
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
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  17. Mulach

    Mulach New User

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    Wonderful!. A lot to digest here. Not to be anal, but I did get a sense that you agree that swinging across also means extension. The forward vector of the across swing and shoulder turn. and as you say there is an across, up and forward vector and the magnitude of all three can vary greatly.

    So the tip to swing across and up literally addresses the across and up vector while without explicitly calling it out, also results in the extend vector.

    At least on this point I think there is common ground?

    Are there other good tips or "swing thoughts" that we should think about that lead to good form?
     
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  18. jackcrawford

    jackcrawford Professional

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    Great stuff here - I have had differences with JY on these boards in the past, basically over a poster here who wrote an article for the site that I saw as not worthy of publication; and regarding the amount of influence the site has had on tour coaches; that said, I can't imagine any serious player or fan not subscribing for at least a month, there's so much of interest there. And, his customer service is first rate.
     
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  19. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Fascinating stuff. Thank you.

    A story.

    I was doing a clinic as a guest of a teammate, so we were using her pro. Her pro was very young, recent college grad.

    After we hit groundstrokes a while, the pro came up to the four of us (3.5 players). She told us all of us were making the same mistake on our FHs: We were preparing too early. She said we shouldn't prepare/take our racket back until the ball bounced.

    I was thunderstruck to hear this, but it explained a lot. See, my friend hits late all the time. It is like she waits to do her unit turn until the ball bounces, which causes terrible directional control because she is late.

    I asked my own pro about this, and he said he would never tell a developing player not to prepare until the ball bounced. He said most developing players are late as it is, so the last thing you would want to do is encourage them to wait to prepare. Instead, he would emphasize early preparation.

    Is my friend's young pro teaching "Modern" tennis?
     
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  20. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    ^^ I agree with your own pro.. most 3.5s prepare too late.

    take back at ball bounce is too late.
     
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  21. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    Actually, it‘s a wording issue. Let‘s get some nuance here. The preparation includes your grip change, your unit turn and the take back...

    Pros do the first two things very early... however, you‘ll notice that the third one occurs late. They usually “split hands“ as the ball bounces: one hand takes the racket back, the other arm extends. Once they split hands, it‘s a continuous swing.

    To finally answer your question, you should do like the pros and it would solve all timing issues - even hitting late.
     
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  22. Passion4Tennis

    Passion4Tennis Rookie

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    Interesting story, Cindy. I agree with your instructor as well. Preparing early isn't the problem, it's when they prep too late. I've seen this countless times. They are slow to move their feet, do a unit turn, and get their racquet back. If you and your friends have flaws in your fhs, it is due to other things. I've always prepared early on my groundstrokes, and it works well. It would be foolish to change it.

    Could you imagine waiting for the ball to bounce when it's coming in hard and a foot or two from the baseline? Not me!
     
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  23. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    That‘s the point of doing a unit turn and setting up early... but you can‘t wait with the racket back without loosing timing or power.
     
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  24. Passion4Tennis

    Passion4Tennis Rookie

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    #74
  25. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Mulach,

    Still on the common ground thing eh? In most every actual instance because of the nature of the swing arc the up out and across all continue together--this is true.

    As I have said using an image of a finish point for the forward swing--as oposed to the deceleration or the wrap--will make this happen.

    It might be possible to hit such a severe windshield wiper that the outward dimension was trunkcated to the point of near non-existence.

    The issue with Wegner is that he wants the across to be violent and abrubt and the forward component to be reduced. That's no way to learn to drive the ball with pace.
     
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  26. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Freak, Passion, Cindy, Luv, et al,

    The separation of the hands varies somewhat in timing. However it is virtually always well before the bounce in any kind of normal pro paced baseline rally.

    You can see this in thousands of clips. It's not just Fed--it's the same for about 60 top 100 players on our site.

    I agree there is no point where the racket stops. Good players time the motion with slight adjustments to keep it continuous. If you look at the left arm stretch it occurs sometimes right at the bounce and sometimes slightly after or even before.

    But to speak to the point above all good players initiate the unit turn immediately. No one except struggling club players waits to prepare until after the bounce. That is crazy crazy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
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  27. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Jack,

    Thanks for the great words! Having fun doing this.

    JY
     
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  28. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    agreed, the only exception would be if a player has to run full speed to get to a ball, would you agree?
    doing a unit turn and then starting to run to the ball would take up too much time and make for awkward running, imo
     
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  29. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    What exactly do the Wegner/"Modern" advocates say about this issue of early preparation?

    I was looking at some Davydenko slow motion footage of his FH. He splits, and immediately prepares. Then you see the ball bounce, and by then he has already started his forward swing.

    Thinking back on it, I suppose what the young pro was trying to do is perhaps get us to stop waiting for the ball. By that I mean we (especially I) tend to wait for the ball to reach us rather than moving up to the ball. This can make it look like we are preparing too early when in fact the problem is that we are preparing at the right time but are waiting around to hit the ball for no reason instead of attacking it.
     
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  30. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Cindy,

    Well preparation is better than no preparation. It would be better to prepare early than not to prepare at all.

    The ideal is a silky rhythmic turning motion that begins when the other player hits and leads to perfect loading on time to strike that unique oncoming ball.

    Wegner advocates waiting "as long as possible" whatever that means, "stalking" the ball with the hands in front and the most difficult to imagine, counting to 5 after the bounce (in 3 1/10s of a second...???) before preparing the racket. This is some of the modern marketing magic you refer to in your other post.

    You can look at possibly the greatest woman's player of all time--Serena--and see that she sometimes gets the racket back so quicklly that she runs to the ball in that position and actually double pumps to get rhythm on her swing again. Same wiith Venus.

    Ironically Wegner claims to have influenced them both (among all the others).
    But the point is most club players are standing around when the ball bounces. They never turn and end up mainly arming the shot. Preparation is the single biggest issue I see when I watch club tennis and it's one of the easiest to correct.
     
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  31. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    T,

    Agreed. On the full run you sometimes see a delay or slowing of the unit turn, but it always initiates with the movement to the ball as players run sideways, not facing front ways.

    What we are talking about are the basic positions to learn to drive the ball--and these always adapt to the individual ball especially at higher levels.
     
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  32. Off The Wall

    Off The Wall Semi-Pro

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    At one point in the past on this forum, there was a consensus that "stalking" could be defined as 'after the unit turn and before racquet take-back.' It identifies a unique portion of the shot and is rather descriptive. I'm not sure if the MTMers had this in mind, but they didn''t protest.
     
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  33. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Off,

    Yeah I remember that. Not what they officially say but they were pressed by some overwhelming video evidence probably...

    The thing I think is still horribly detrimental is the idea that the preparation stops or pauses when in virtually all normal rally situations it doens't.
     
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  34. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    More on the Wraps

    As the video evidence shows the best players have always demonstrated the variety of shot and finishes we see so commonly in the modern game.

    What has changed is the ability to use them more frequently and as normal finishes, due to the changes in equipment and string.

    Paradoxicaly, coaches such as Lansdorp have adjusted to these changes and teach the full variety of swing patterns. One of the strangest things about the Wegner system that is touted is so revolutionary and modern is that he has stayed with the old style over the shoulder finish.

    That is something that isn't modern at all, going back to Bill Tilden. All the great players of the classical era forward wrapped, and mostly over the shoulder.

    And one more important point. Don't let anyone tell you that the wrap--over the shoulder or otherwise is the key to racket acceleration. It's not.

    There has been on this board tremendous confusion and misrepresentation of the the actual speeds of the racket at various points in the swing. If we assume a 90mph forward the fact is the racket speed is maxed right around the contact at say around 60 mph.

    It builds up to that from the start of the forward swing. This is no last second acceleration before contact and certainly none after.

    As for the wrap, that is the slowest portion of the swing. The speed at that point declines to as little as 5mph. This makes perfect sense when you think about it--why would the racket accelerate when it is moving in the opposite direction of the hit?

    From the injury prevention point of view this is critical as well. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, etc, and the human body needs to decelerate a speeding implement over distance to avoid stressing the joints and muscles.

    This is why the mantra, "show me the butt of the racket" is so wrong headed. Many junior players are encouraged to force the wrap. I call this the "mechanical" wrap. What they end up doing is reducing the extension of the swing in the outward dimension, reducing racket head speed, and increasing the strain on their arms and shoulders.

    This is why you often see players with these forced, exaggerated wraps appearing to swing with great effort and producing short, spiny, paceless balls.
     
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  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Confusion here is over what is proper prep instead of when to prep.
    Below is stated much better...
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
    #85
  36. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    Again truth = the opposite of your posts. 98% of all forehands the hands split before the bounce.

    Evidence = the opposite of your posts. The level of denial inside your head has got to be painful.
     
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  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Well I guess we all know how reliable that number is and where you pulled it from :)
     
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  38. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Forehand Summary

    Developing a great forehand depends on mastering a few simple positions, mastering them physically and visually.

    The first is the full turn--a commonality from classical through modern tennis. This means initiating the turn with the feet and body at the opponent's hit, making a smooth continuous motion that fills the interval of the oncoming ball, and reaching the left arm stretch with the racket hand at the top of the backswing at about the time of the bounce.

    Don't stalk, don't delay the turn, don't wait for the bounce to separate the hands. Good players don't, never have, never will.

    Stance is a controversial topic and the buzz words have major positive and negative connotations. "Open" stance is considered "modern" by Wegnerites. But again the problem is the vast majority of pro players hit the vast majority of forehands semi-open with a line along the toes at about a 30 to 45 degree angle to the baseline.

    The term "closed stance" is in oposition seen as the epitome of old school. Again, reality is something different from belief. The fact is that on the run closed stance is common in the pro game.

    But "closed" in which the player steps across is confused in "modern" terminology with "neutral" or "square" in which the line along the toes is 90 degrees to the baseline or often parallel to the target line.

    Lower level players who try to hit fully open stance will almost never master the full body turn. This is why most instructors believe that neutral stance is critical in the learning process.
    Wegner makes a big deal about his influence in Spain, but many of the best known Spanish coaches use neutral stance first in exactly this fashion.

    In reality all players and even top pros use neutral stance in match play. Master it yourself when you are working on your turn. You can easily evolve this to semi-open and even open, but again fully open is the exception related to circumstance when players are forced on time.

    The other key component is the proper forward swing. No matter what the radical modern guys claim, all forward swings move forward toward the target as part of the natural arc of the motion.

    Master the drive first--as noted above--wrist at eye level, hand at the left edge of the torso. Good spacing between your racket hand and your chest. From there you can add a wiper finish with essentially the same checkpoints--but with the hand and arm rotation added.

    From there you can learn to break off the wiper sooner for low balls, short balls, and angles.

    From there you can even add reverse finishes which can be very effective on the run.

    Finally a word on grips. If you have already developed a swing pattern with an extreme semi-western grip that will be very difficult to change. All the above advice will apply, but for the club level it's not ideal.

    Extreme grips are suited to high contact heights for pro players who play deep and let those searing topspin drives bounce high.

    Yet three of the top 10 players in the world play Eastern or slight variations. Federer. Del Potro. And Jo Willie.

    These guys play up and take the ball at lower contact heights. This means hitting on the rise which is the mark of true viruosity in the pro game.

    But you know what? Those contact heights are normal in the club game. With an eastern or a mild semi-western grip you can have it all, especially if you experiment with poly strings.

    You can drive the hell out of the ball, you can hit all degrees of topspin and you can master all the finishes. It's a great time to be a recreational tennis player if you have the right equipment and the right information!

    Good luck to all and I welcome questions from the sincere among us here on the beloved TW boards.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
    #88
  39. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    Please refrain from references to anal cavities on this board. It is unbecoming for an analyst of your stature and high values.
     
    #89
  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Sincere question in the pursuit of truth as you have mentioned-
    Maybe you can compare and contrast this Unit turn above,
    with the classic unit turn to the surfboard stance you depict in "Visual Tennis"?
     
    #90
  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for the nice comments, but don't know why you mention cavities...
    I was referring to your vivid imagination :)
     
    #91
  42. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Oh thanks so much for the clarification--how could I have possibly gotten that wrong? But wait, truth = the opposite in your posts.
     
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  43. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So, the opposite of vivid imagination would be lacking a vivid imagination?? :???:

    Any interest in explaining how your current unit turn relates to your classic
    surfboard version in your book?
    Since you seem to suggest the unit turn of the past has been a tennis constant...
     
    #93
  44. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    The surfboard turn? Is that some technical mtm term I am unfamiliar with?
     
    #94
  45. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    No, that came from a USPTA clinic back when I worked with classic technique.
    Looks just like the pic of the guy in your book.
    :)
     
    #95
  46. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Lots of good stuff to think about and experiment with. Thanks JY and others.
     
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  47. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Tom,

    Cool. Let me know if anything clicks.
     
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  48. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Ok JY. Gonna be out on the court tomorrow trying some suggestions which require changes in my game. Was hitting against the wall tonight. Focusing on footwork and being relaxed and hitting out. I think I'm improving. God, I love this game. :)

    Nice thread. So glad there's no stupid flaming that might get it deleted.

    And yes, will let you know if any particular suggestion "clicks". :)
     
    #98
  49. Passion4Tennis

    Passion4Tennis Rookie

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    #99
  50. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    5263, I believe that we already disproved this (bolded) statement in another thread. High speed films show that, in many/most cases, elite players "split hands" a bit before the ball bounces. If you instruct a student to wait for the bounce to separate the "off" hand, they will undoubtedly do it late much/most of the time.

    Elite players also extend the "off" hand toward the side (fence) one it separates from the racket and prior to the forward swing. I've posted pics of Sampras, Agassi, Federer, Nadal and others doing this numerous times in other threads -- and have indicated the reason for the action as well. If a player waits for the bounce to "split hands", they will often not have sufficient time for this arm extension.

    Lastly, it doesn't really make sense to time the separation of the hand relative to the bounce -- even if we were to say, "separate just prior to the bounce". Such a statement does not work for many balls. Some balls bounce close to the back service line (especially serves), while others bounce much deeper. Balls also come in a different speeds. A blanket statement relating the had separation to the bounce is not wise.
     
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