Does Modern Tennis Exist?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JohnYandell, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Say it how you want, but I watched the 1st two vids and in each they are
    still extending the off hand in the separation move as the ball bounces up over a foot.
    In real time this is all happening in about a tenth of a second if not less.
    We don't teach in slo mo.
    Either way, these are minor points and distinctions that don't come up or cause any
    problem during instruction.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  2. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ How about the point that I made in my 1st paragraph in post #100? Also, how about my last point in that post?



    .
     
  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't ever approach it as a blanket statement type thing and only get this kind
    of discussion on a computer where people can pull up a vid and go frame by
    frame. In real time instruction it works well to teach how to separate and extend
    at the bounce. In real time a student looks at ( and I always looked at this way)
    the bounce as that portion of the ball flight where it is coming down to bounce,
    along with contact and coming back up. Like this " V". Seems the
    detractors to this terminology see it only as the moment of impact?? Or
    coming back up only?? I don't know, but none of this means anything on the
    court in actual instruction.
    Also the separation part is where the hands come apart and off hand extends.
    As I stated, the extension is still happening after the ball has bounced
    over a foot high. This is a process, not a singular act.
    This is a lot of to-do about nothing important. It's a general time frame, like
    don't split the hands when ball is still over the net...do it more like as it
    is about to bounce...that kind of thing for my understanding.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  4. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    Agree to disagree. It's critical to get to the left arm stretch with the hands separated and if anything for the average player sooner rather than later. This is why you need video to make sure the timing is within reasonable parameters and most club players are really late if in fact they even have the concept.

    I see you are arguing for the left arm stretch. That's good but I think this is your own positive evolution and certainly at odds with many of the stated positions of Wegner.
     
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    In the book he just says don't commit to your swing till the bounce. He doesn't
    talk about when to separate the hands and only to not have it fully back or
    commit the swing till the bounce.
    Just looked it up and it jives with my court experience with him.
    This is very much in line with what we see and the video provided in this thread.
     
  6. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I'm glad you guys are talking about this, because I've never really thought about it much. I do find that the earlier my preparation, then the better my shots seem to be. I've also come to think that using the left hand (on the forehand, I'm a righty) to sort of point at the ball (after separation from the normal prep) seems to help me sustain my concentration on the ball and has improved the consistency of my shots.

    If this isn't a generally accepted good thing to do ... please advise. Thanks.
     
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not a bad technique to point, but top players are going to stretch further across
    and get more shoulder turn on avg., but
    not to say you can't point and still get good shoulder turn.
    And early prep is fine as long as it does not mean pointing the racket at the back
    fence as part of that early prep.
     
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  8. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks 5263, but I think that sometimes I actually do take the racquet back as far as to point at the back fence on some of my best shots ... both forehand and backhand. So, what might be going on there. Don't know. Just asking.

    EDIT: Ah, it just occurred to me. Maybe that's not a part of the early prep, but rather the final takeback and swing into the ball.
     
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  9. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    that could tend to throw off timing and racket control, but would be more critical
    at higher levels I expect.
    I should have hit with you when I was down there on the break :)
     
  10. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Oh man. You were here? Next time please look me up. I'll pay for everything. It would be such a treat.

    Anyway, here's a vid to illustrate what I'm talking about. This is the sort of forehand motion and execution that feels really good to me. If you see any problem, please critique.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQa4VIRh5d8
     
  11. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Uhh, but this isn't how MTM methology works. Essentially, Oscar tells his people what to believe, they fall in line, and then defend him to the end. Forget about logic, or video proof.

    As the video illustrates, finding the left arm stretch and the top of the backswing by the time the ball bounces, is perhaps the most critical reference point. It is universal amoungst good players. That's saying something given the wide array of backswing shapes and general individual ideosyncracys. And there's a reason for it. It allows a player to load properly, stay relaxed/develop good tempo in the backswing, which are critical in good ball striking.

    I find it ironic that Oscar preaches relaxation and yet advocates a system that promotes stress. If the hands break apart late because of "waiting" it creates ...rushed backswings, incomplete turns, etc...... STRESS.

    No, if you want to develop good timing, tempo, proper loading, KEY off this reference point/postion. Finding the top of the backswing at more or less the ball bounce will teach your mind when the hands need to break apart to seamlessly transition into it.
     
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  12. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    what i find ironic is that people from both sides of the trenches take videos like the ones above as evidence that they are right and the other party is wrong

    i work a lot with adults who have played for years, in lots of cases competitively in team leagues etc, and most of them don´t know about the importance of the split step, don´t do a correct unit turn and don´t know that once the hands split, the racquet movement should be continous

    once they master this, and it is often not easy to relearn, than virtually all of them report back, that they feel like they have more time and as a result are more relaxed and feel in control
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  13. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I'm with you and JY on the early prep. I don't believe that we should use "wait for the bounce" as some sort of mantra. On many (deep/fast) balls, that would be much too late.

    Pointing to the incoming ball is more of an old school technique. Agassi, Sampras and modern players, instead, extend the arm more toward the sideline rathter than pointing to the ball. The extended hand does, more or less, line up with the incoming ball. This arm extension to the side helps to maintain a good coiling of the torso and helps the footwork by using the extended hand to measure the body position relative to the incoming ball.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Aw, Come on Man, :)
    No need to hurt your excellent credibility with those kind of comments.
    There are several things I'm not defending. I'm not saying he is wrong, but
    I don't defend counting to 5 at the pro level and currently don't get the idea
    of "yanking" across. I'm reserving judgement in those minor areas, which also
    dont appear in the book that I know of.

    But this one is pretty easy to get. Don't know if it's Oscar's words or someone
    else's that are tripping you up, but the I watched the first 2 vids and they are
    exactly what we teach. If a pic is worth thousand, then a vid must be worth a mil?
    We use vid just like those first two to make sure the point gets across.
    You can do all the good prep you want, but in the book, Oscar says don't
    commit to the swing to the ball until the bounce. Those guys in the vid don't start
    a forward swing to the ball till well after the bounce.

    As to stress.....It's going to take loading at some point to swing the racket
    briskly, so relax when you can, but there is "go" time as well. :)
     
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There is nothing modern in tennis except perhaps the complete across the body swing on the forehand, which comes automatically with increased swing speeds and full follow-through, and should not be forced.

    Everything is just common sense and a natural consequence of using lighter and more powerful rackets.
     
  16. Off The Wall

    Off The Wall Semi-Pro

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    Timing the hand separation won't be an issue at higher levels.

    Since beginners are fed slower balls, waiting for the bounce for separation is probably a good way to convey a unit turn/stalk without pointing the racquet at the back fence.

    As students improve, they should grasp the technique and then make separation adjustments for the different speeds of incoming shots.

    IMO.
     
  17. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Off the Wall,

    Couldn't disagree more. If anything it's the opposite for lower level players.
     
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Everyone gets the timing eventually and learn to adjust to different speeds. Those who don't are adults who do not watch the pros play and continue with a preconceived notion for ever. They are also the same people who use wrong grips or have a dinky second serve after 30 years of club play.
     
  19. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Another example (this time from match play) of a forehand that felt good to me, and happened to be effective. But I feel sure that it could be much better, and I don't know what to do to make that happen.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcHrKgWFg8
     
  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Great points. Fully open stance facing the net all the time is rare even among club players, as it does not create enough torque. It is the case even if fully open is defined as legs parallel to the baseline, but body turned. Most pro forehands are at least a little semi open - the outside foot is behind the inside foot. Then they either bring the inside foot back (commonly) or sometimes drag the outside foot forward.

    The swing arc is also noticeably towards the target before it turns over. Towards the target does not mean linear, which is a strawman. For a CC shot, the towards is already angular. The racket face is perpendicular to the direction pointing towards the target at impact, or slight closed, and that is what gives the power in the intended direction.
     
  21. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    it´s a very short clip to say anything useful.
    anyway, here´s a tip:
    try holding the racquet with your left hand between points and keep the racquet head up, that should help with a more efficient unit turn. if it doesn´t help, forget the tip and blame me:)
     
  22. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    The OPs point that there is nothing new under the sun, that is: what is called Modern strokes have been used since the 19th century, is in fact true but is misleading. Ultimately making the statement needlessly controversial.

    Yes tennis players have used extreme grips and wraparound strokes and used lots of spin since time began. But the unstated obvious fact in the OP is that before Modern strings, there was a relatively low limit to swingspeed before the number of long shots would make the stroke unusable in matchplay.

    What makes Modern strokes Modern isn't that they were invented recently, it is that with the advent of string tech, players could hit those same strokes with previously thought to be crazy swingspeeds and bring to bear topspin that had never been seen before.

    You're not seriously saying that 19th century players were getting 5000 rpms on their FHs, are you?
     
  23. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Only one player gets 5000 rpm today and he seems to be injured frequently.
     
  24. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Lucky,

    Try reading the posts. You haven't quite understood what I wrote. For the most part it's similar to what you have said.

    Again, there are modern elements in classical tennis and classical elements in modern tennis--the balance and the extremities are what have evolved, mostly due to equipment and especially strings. But to say that there is some kind of complete divide, that's just not true. That distinction is for marketing purposes and does a disservice to coaches and players.
     
  25. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, Lucky...you can't understand??

    There is no clear divide between modern and classic, which I guess means there
    is no modern or classic...just tennis or just classic. Now even though they lack
    a divide to classify, Modern is in classic and Classic is in modern.. I guess that
    is why they can't be divided, because they are inside each other...but how is
    there one or the other to be inside the other if they are inseparable and can't
    be classified.
    Now Lucky, why can't you understand that type marketing disservice above ??
     
  26. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    I wouldn't speak for Lucky. But then you weren't really.
     
  27. DropShotArtist

    DropShotArtist Banned

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    Yeah Federer got that on a BH slice, be he's not very frequently injured.
     
  28. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    that's not the same.

    the knife down slice goes WITH gravity, while the FH goes AGAINST.... big difference.
     
  29. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Possibly even more important is that nearly all incoming balls that players hit already have topspin generated by the bounce or by the other player. In order to put your own topspin on the ball, you must reverse the spin direction. If one slices an incoming ball, less effort is required to add spin to the ball since the spin direction would be the same.
     
  30. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ Note also that, when a player hits a topspin shot, the post-bounce spin rate is greater that the pre-bounce spin. Any ball that keeps moving forward after the bounce will have topspin. A sliced ball that sits up (i.e., it doesn't move forward much), like a drop shot, will have very little post-bounce spin. Only ball that bounce backward will still have a backspin on them after the bounce.
     
  31. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    ^^ Agreed.
    Also the muscles in the shoulder are stronger going down than up and also extending the elbow can provide more spin than flexing it. same motion as in the serve. Gravity is not a factor here.
     
  32. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    A couple of things: I reread your OP and I am not seeing a reference to Modern string tech as a contributing factor in what can be accomplished in Modern tennis. Secondly if: "For the most part it's (your OP) similar to what you have said" then I guess we agree with each other. Nice to hear it.

    You do agree that there is a differnce between 19th century optimal matchplay and Modern Pro matchplay, right? So there IS a difference. When the difference happened, whether it was gradual or sudden, what caused it, who invented it, how is it best to teach it... we can debate topics around the edges of it, but it is a real difference.

    I do agree that the difference is evolutionary (with retention of many elements of the Classic game), instead of revolutionary (totally new from A to Z).
     
  33. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Lucky,

    There is a later post that deals with speed and spin in the current game--think I mention the strings--in any case it's been documented that poly generates 25% or more additional spin. That is a huge game changer and Federer himself has atributed the death of serve and volley to the strings.

    And yes that's a good way to put it--evolutionary--with elements from co-called classical and so called modern tennis mixed over the decades, trending toward the more extreme usage of the more extreme elements, but with some core elements also transcending the eras.

    The revolutionary thing is a false claim to put down coaches with a balanced perspective and frankly to try to sell product based on hype not fact. Sadly and ironically it doesn't even accurately describe technique in the current game.
     
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    At least not to the point to be understood by the lowest common denominator.
     
  35. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Polys

    Just to have some perspective for players below 4.5 NTRP
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=184942 post #1
    --->
    Polyester All the rage, what the pros use. What 95% of the tennis playing population should NOT be using. Poly is a stiff, durable string, that if you have sufficient batspeed will allow you to generate wicked spin. Newer polys (Called Co-Polys) are softer and hold tension better than older polys, but poly strings in general are still stiff, harsh, and don't hold tension well at all. If you don't have the racquet head speed to make these strings bend, then you would be best suited trying something else. Polyester strings are only good for a very short amount of time before they "Go Dead" and stop working their magic. After Poly goes dead, it is about the worst string on the planet. This happens long before the strings break. Generally poly stringbeds do not need to have the strings straightened out because they slide back after every hit. If you see that your poly stringbed needs straightening, then it is VERY DEAD and needs to be re-strung ASAP. Poly is not at all good or reccomended to anyone with arm issues or injuries. If your arm starts hurting, try something else.
     
  36. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    I use a soft 17g copoly kiteboard picked for me and it is fabulous-sounds and feels great and I will also claim 25 percent more spin...but yeah u gotta follow your instincts and feel stress if equip causes it
     
  37. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Forehand Timing

    To All,

    Here is a 120 frame/second high speed clip of Dimtrov hitting a forehand.

    I won't interpret what I see right now. Curious to see what others think. Remember with this type of file you can go frame by frame and that is critical to really unlocking the meaning.

    Hint for Tom T: there is a magic key to your forehand included.

    http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/dimtrov/
     
  38. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Great footage. Thanks.
    Looks like he must have hit that one very near the top of the frame.
     
  39. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Yep probably but that's true of Djokovic and others on a regular basis... what else????
     
  40. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I"m guessing you're referring to -
    Early unit turn
    hands separate before the bounce
    left arm extension
    push off from outside leg
    continous motion from back-swing to contact
    inside out swing
    contact out in front but not as much as cc as it's an i/o
    full right arm extension
    relatively safe i/o shot just trying to place it wide ad side - very small amount of radial deviation
    finish around the shoulder
     
  41. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    he's making so many mistakes... typical 3.5 player noob.

    sorry, someone had to do it. that forehand is actually very pretty.

    to add from what cheetah said:
    - early prep, shoulder turn, separation prior to ball bounce due to fast ball
    - allow racquet to drop after separation/shoulder turn.
    - swings slightly from below the contact to above the contact, but still following the natural rotation around his body/core.
    - wrist laid back during the swing to the contact point..
    - at contact the racquet is almost perpendicular to the ground, seems to be a few degrees angled forward (say 10 degrees? hard to tell from behind).
    - head focused on contact during most of the swing and after contact.

    question, is keeping that bend in the right elbow a style thing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  42. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    He also doesn't drop the racquet down into the slot until the bounce. Not sure that's important and you can see a lot of variety on that timing.
     
  43. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for that. It's a keeper. Yeah, that's the way (or one way) that I would love to learn how to hit a forehand. Not sure what the magic key is. I'm guessing it has to do with Dimitrov's really nice bouncy footwork, the more open stance, and the high takeback and that he holds onto the racquet with his left hand longer. Or more likely one (or more?) of the points that Cheetah and Relinquis made.

    Clearly, I have no idea what the magic key is. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  44. tennisfan69

    tennisfan69 New User

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    John, we dont see the pulling across or yanking of the ball. he pretty much extends to the target area.
     
  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Hands separate before the bounce and there is no "yanking." There is good extension before turning over. This should put to rest a lot of debate.
     
  46. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    John, i like that you talk about a magic key, because it makes me look harder at the video, than i would have otherwise done.
    Dimitrov basically does all of the good stuff,that is talked about here, cheetah did a good sum-up.
    one of the things i really like about his forehand, is that he holds his head very still throughout the stroke.
     
  47. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Very true. If you are going to make the decision to take advantage of what poly has to offer (and you predict your arm can handle it), great.

    It will be interesting to see over the next couple of decades what happens to a generation of players who have been using poly and Modern strokes for their entire tennis life, reach retirement age (when a lot of players get the most enjoyment out of the game).

    For me: gut.
     
  48. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    OK. I see the key as the lag of the racket head at the part of the stroke when the hand starts to change direction. The cue when the rackets points back as the hand starts forward. They move in different directions. Then the racket catches up. I see him trying to direct the shot inside out. And as a consequences he does not pronate much till much later than contact almost till the end of the finish. So he actually directs in the line of the shot as much as the rotation can allow. The hitting towards the target thing.

    I think the reason is because he is coming off a serve. The return is a pretty good one. So he only needed to redirect the pace to the open court. If we can see a federer inside out in a rally I think you will see much more of a pulling glancing shot with a bit of sidespin because of the pulling across. Much more than this clip with dmitrov extending as much as he can into the direction of the ball. Maybe he hits like this all the time. But fed and nadal djoko pronate and pull across earlier. Just at contact. And especially down the middle or crosscourt shots as its easier to just pull the arm across early then. But they all have that racket tip lag at the change of direction of the stroke. That's the power move IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Tom,
    Go frame by frame, stop when the ball is on the court and look at the position of the shoulders and left arm...in ur clip u get there but r slow to this position in relation to the bounce.
     
  50. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    To All,

    At 120 frames per second you can calculate certain critical intervals accurately.

    What duration do you come up with from the opponent's hit to the bounce? From after the bounce to GD's hit?

    What implications do you find in that?
     
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