Does Modern Tennis Exist?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JohnYandell, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Arche,

    I have posted exactly what you asked for before but will dig it out.
    Will be very interested in how you find your hypothesis holds up.

    The lag is a key but is this clip you can also see the critical precursors that make that possible and effective.
     
  2. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks JY.
     
  3. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Cool. I'm looking at the forums and vid on a tablet so it doesn't really do frame by frame. My guesses were just via slow mo. Not using the full frame by frame. Could of easily missed a lot even slowed down.
     
  4. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Ok, have compared vids and I see what you're talking about. It starts with being a bit earlier than my prep and opening the stance a bit more. (Also, his arm extension is better. That is, I think my upper arm is too close to my body.) Is this correct? Anyway, the vid of Dimitrov gives me some very specific things that I can visualize and work on. Thanks JY.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  5. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Yes, the lag also. I can see that Dimitrov's racquet hand wrist goes back further than mine. How important is this? To me, now, it seems like it might be one of the crucial missing ingredients in my forehand.
     
  6. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Its the missing link. The difference between a pro ATP fh and rec fh. Its everything to do with leading with the body first. The legs, hips, etc...
     
  7. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Yes, modern tennis definately exist but some pros have been playing modern tennis for decades. Tilden, Bitsy Grant, Borg, Vilas, Solomon, even Laver to a certain degree.

    Classic Tennis:
    1. Prep: turn to side and take racket back so head points at back fence
    2. Stroke: step into ball in square stance and drive up and through contact.
    3. Finish: follow through until tip of racket points at top of opposite fence

    Modern:
    1. Prep: some teach shoulder pivot and some say just stalk ball
    2. Stroke: loop swing with slightly closed racket face at contact - shoulders should rotate to side but any stance will do
    3. Finish: pull up, thru and across and finish with hand over or by opposite shoulder - butt of racket will point at net and tip of racket will point behind you.

    John Yandell and Oscar's MTM both are "modern" but they differ on exact intepretation of modern. John seems to like early pivot/prep while Oscar likes stalk the ball. John thinks you must start the stroke earlier while Oscar wants you to work on waiting. They both are somewhat consistent on the actually contact and finish but Oscar's latest "yank back" theory is confusing to me.
     
  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Really? How can you tell? Contact is off screen on my view.
     
  9. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    To each their own. I see a lot of across action in the stroke. I agree there is extension too. But, I see a racket moving up, thru and across at contact. I don't see anything I would call a yank but some across action to my eye.
     
  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Actually after the bounce, right?

    I stopped the vid with the ball compressed on the court and that was exactly as
    he hit the old unit turn full early prep position
    . I even went backwards a few
    frames to be sure and you could see the shoulder was still moving to the full back
    old prep position. I won't speak for Jy, but isn't that the position he says players immediately
    go to; and don't we clearly see the delay here as the shoulders
    stay squared up facing the incoming ball, tracking or stalking it and not moving to
    the full preped position till the bounce impact?

    Taking this vid frame by frame, you can clearly see how he faces the incoming ball
    ("stalks it" to some) with both hands on the frame...even though there is a very
    short time frame to do this. As the ball starts to come down to the bounce,
    you can see how he leaves the position of facing the ball and starts to turn
    his shoulders to prepare the shoulder turn and arriving at that full should turn
    precisely at the bounce of the ball.
    Wow...very nice video, thanks
     
  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    While I agree I don't see any yanking, this vid is an excellent view of how the
    hand is moving across at contact and has moved on it's arc from a full extension
    to the right inline with the shoulders; and pulls across to almost in front of the
    rt shoulder at contact. How much more across were you looking for?

    Even more evident if you factor in this shot is dtl or I/O.
     
  12. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    You have to define "yanking"

    You have to define "yanking"
    Otherwise the conversation is fruitless
    Please do NOT use LOL in your response.
    Please do NOT use any abbreviations either
    Please cross check with your OWN posts
    in
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?searchid=14268013

    stating that "yanking is NEW to you"
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i can't tell. just what it looks like. Where on the stringbed do you think he hit it?
     
  14. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yes, after the bounce. Or maybe as it bounces?
    He's taking the racquet back...,back...,back and only when the ball bounces does he let the racquet actually drop.
     
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Honestly I don't have a clue from what I can see. I respect your objective
    opinion and was just wondering how you arrived at that and Jy seemed to
    agree. Thought maybe I should make my window bigger or something? :???:
    It was just a honest question on that.
    You may be right on the money. I never had a dog in that fight about where
    lands on the strings and what the intentions are. My point on that was that
    it couldn't accurately addressed anyway, so why argue either way.
     
  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    yes, I agree. He does not complete the prep or unit turn until the bounce.
     
  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    yank (yngk)
    v. yanked, yank·ing, yanks
    v.tr.
    1. To pull with a quick, strong movement; jerk: yanked the emergency cord.
    2. Slang To extract or remove abruptly: yanked the starting pitcher early in the game.
    v.intr.
    To pull on something suddenly. See Synonyms at jerk1.
    n.
    A sudden vigorous pull; a jerk.


    It is clear that yanking is an abrupt pull.

    1. There is nothing abrupt or jerky in a pro forehand
    2. A pulling force always tends to draw an object closer. A pulling force on a first object must result in a pulling force on a second object it touches (racket touching ball). This is called principle of transmission of force and in theory applies only to rigid bodies, but the non-rigidity is not a factor in this discussion.
    3. If the racket was being yanked, it would also yank the ball and actually bring it closer to the body.
    4. This is absurd - a pro does not bring the ball closer to himself after the contact point
    5. The racket coming closer to the body after impact has to happen, just like a slammed door rotates fully and does not fly off straight. It has nothing to do with yanking.
    6. Yanking is not the same as across motion. An across motion is not an abrupt pull.
    7. Ergo, yanking is an absurd notion.
     
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    His hands have separated before the bounce, which is contradictory to the claim that both hands are together and stalking till after the bounce.

    Once again, video shows how wrong these claims are.
     
  19. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Glad you guys like this clip. I think it shows a lot. I will post a similar Fed one in the next day or so.

    A couple of comments.

    Stalking seems now to be for 5263 on a sliding definition. Stalking as Oscar defines it is keeping the hands in front as long as possible--that is simply not happening. There is no delay anywhere in that motion. It's smooth and seemless from start to finish as are the overhwelming majority of pro forehands. The hands separate well before the bounce and again this is the universal norm.

    Also note something else about "time" after the bounce. For Grigor and this is again typical its about 3/10s of a second. 3/10's of a second from bounce to contact. Try counting to 5 in that interval. if you wait til the bounce to try to prepare you are dead, dead, dead.

    The checkpoint I see missing in so many forehands at the club level--including so clearly for our friend TLM who has a lot of ability and very fast hands--is the full turn around the bounce. He is still hitting fearsome forehands but mainly with his arm and those incredible reverse finishes. He is just scratching the surface of his potential as that forehand of his should be a nuclear missle.

    In the name of god if you really want a good forehand this is one component that anyone can successfully copy from the pros.
     
  20. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    And Suresh you have nailed it, this yanking concept is the most absurd one yet. And that is claiming a lot...
     
  21. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Saving time

    You would save a lot of time if you would allow 5263 to respond FIRST.
     
  22. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    And the string bed...

    Yeah the contact must be above the so-called sweet spot but is still on the center line as the racket isn't tilting either way after contact the way it does on a mishit above or below the center line. This is common for Djok but haven't studied it for GR.
     
  23. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I'm not arguing.

    the frames where you can tell he makes contact can be seen in the vid. In those frames more than half of the stringbed can be seen with no ball in the picture. That means it's at least in the upper half. Judging by the angle and speed the ball is travelling and the path/speed of the racquet coming up and around to meet the ball it looks like contact was made very close to the frame on top of the racquet.
     
  24. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    The yanking is new. I'm not ready to call it wrong just because I can't really do it. And yes oscar means a deliberate yank back. Its very hard to do.

    I do see elements of it on djoko fh. But thats it. No one else.

    I'm gonna try it tomorrow morning again when I play w my kid. I just dont want to hit myself in the forehead. Lol.
     
  25. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He has the pull back idea even on the 1 handed BH:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5csE9UD1CU&feature=relmfu

    Yanking and pull back may be unfortunate terms. He probably means raising the body from low to high as part of hitting up and across, but he wanted to show he was different from the old coaches. There was a time when people would say "stay low through the stroke" which is not needed with the powerful rackets today. Wonder if his yanking/pull back was supposed to address this.
     
  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    In that case, it would contradict his claim of making tennis easy and natural. It seems to be a mystical concept where the racket is pulled back but the ball it is in contact with is not, but actually heads outwards.
     
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Post it if you can find it, and I'll admit a mistake if I ever posted "till after the
    bounce." I doubt you will find it, but I mis-state things like anyone at times.
    I expect you will try to paint me in a corner saying I'm splitting hairs on terms, but,
    When I use the terms "at the bounce" and "hands separation" they are terms
    for a process and used in a context. At the bounce, or "as it is bouncing" is not
    a precise moment for me, Like you dribble a ball, that whole process is bouncing,
    not just the moment the ball touches ground.
    There is a window there to use and adjust. Odd to think anyone would consider
    picking some precise moment to do something, especially when that something
    is also a process, like stalk, prep, or hand separation.

    Hand separating is not even a MTM term that I know of and I only used that
    in response to questions and comments about how the process ...which is hands
    leaving the racket to reach across with the off hand and continue to prepare
    the racket with the other. This hands separating Process is not just the moment
    the off hand leaves the racket, but also includes the off hand reaching & shoulder
    doing the final part of the turn.
     
  28. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Try it. It does work. It snaps the racket head forward as you yank. But for someone like me with a smooth wiper I cant do it with skill enough to hit the ball right everytime. Its actually very hard for me. I've tried it myself numerous times. Too hard. But ill keep trying to see what happens.
     
  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm not either. Talking on the forum is tough, lol.

    Anyway, we are not talking about the same upper half. :???:
     
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    This is the same kind of discussion once about hitting down with the racket. If you hit down, you cannot hit up. If you yank (pull the racket backward), it cannot move forward. These things are not physically possible, there is no point in arguing that they can happen.
     
  31. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    No no you misunderstand. You can try it air swinging. As you rotate into the wiper you just pull back the bicep. The racket keeps going around but it is just more abrupt. Not smooth if your swing fast. I'm doing it right now in my living room. Its weird feeling.
     
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think it is a waste of time to share this concept with those who don't have the
    background to get it. They must have never cracked a whip, popped someone
    with a damp towel, or thrown a wave in a rope to get it over an obstacle.
    All these things and others, use a method of changing directions to accel the
    instrument...very much like the method Oscar describes.
     
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I know. It all feels like that. Let me know when the racket is moving towards you at ball contact, but the ball then moves away from you.

    These are illusions. You can imagine what you want and you will experience it. That is why high-speed video removes the illusions.
     
  34. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Ok I've been doing it with my eyes closed. If I listen to the racket head air turbulence when i engage my bicep and pull the racket head air sounds higher. Its going faster. same motion as wiper but adding the bicep.
     
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Which just does not happen when the video is analyzed. He is wrong, plain and simple. Simply twisting words will not make it right, like jumping through hoops about hands now not separating before bounce. You were proved wrong by video, Oscar was also proved wrong. His one handed BH video is even more absurd.

    A whip LOL. It is as far from a rigid body as possbile. There is no comparison with a tennis racket. Same with a towel. Yank a wet towel on a court and hit a forehand with it and take a video of it and post it here, then we will see.

    These terms like yanking only mislead people and make them believe they are into some great secret, when it is clearly disproved by what the pros do.
     
  36. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I have tried it. All it does is speed up the racket. Your pull only slows down forward part of the hand in fjnish and makes it more compact. Its a different contact closer to you than a full wiper wrap. Just try it. Its not as literal as you think. The racket does not go backwards. It goes forward just like a normal stroke
     
  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Doesn't seem that tennis is a simple and natural sport as claimed. Seems quite complicated.

    I want a simple methodology which will make me like the pros immediately, like just running to the ball like a baby and then feeling the ball.
     
  38. tennisfan69

    tennisfan69 New User

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    if one keeps yanking... injury prone i guess...
     
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Just curious...how do you read the above?
    and just for the record, I've never said yanking or
    abrupt...so you can leave me out of that politics.
    Seems some still can't read.
     
  40. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I'm not advocating yanking or pulling back or stepping back or anything else but...

    what arche said is true. I was doing it last night. If you 'yank' across it will throw the racquet forward a bit and the rhs increases. You can hear the head whoosh. With several adjustments to foot position and grip and swing etc etc you can vary the direction of the yank so that it doesn't even look like a yank and the head can go more forward or less or any degree of arc you're trying to get.

    Personally I don't swing like this all the time but I do do it on occasion. It definitely works if that's what you're going for. It's easy, definitely increases rhs and it makes a nice swing shape actually.

    edit: and you don't have to 'yank' to the side fence. you can 'yank' towards the net post or more towards the center of the court or less.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What you are describing is something that Federer does when the hand comes tucking in close to the body with supination, and then there is pronation into impact. He uses it to put more side spin. It is like a mini-inside-out action embedded inside his forehand, and he sometimes will use more wrist than usual in that stroke to add a flicking component too.

    It is precisely what has been widely discussed here as a "pull forehand" rather than a "push forehand."

    It is not yanking or pulling in. Those have been illustrated as a push forehand, but with a pull in just before contact. That is not this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, of course it works, but it's tucking... not pulling, lol.
    can't you see that? :)
     
  43. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Its not. I can hit what you described. This is active use of the biceps. Along with the pronation into the contact. It would really be easier to just grab a racket and engage your biceps than dont. See for yourself.
     
  44. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I wouldn't call anything that Dimitrov is doing yanking back either. To me, yanking back would refer to an anomalous motion aimed at producing more sidespin.

    I like what JY, arche3, et al. have indicated as the keys to work on. In addition, I notice that what Dimitrov does with his left hand all through the motion (but mainly at the finish where it looks much more graceful and to be an important component of the mechanics) is somewhat different than mine, and also that he's bending his wrist more at the takeback lag and his upper arm is more extended.

    Also have to agree with sureshs, JY, et al. that OW's reference to yanking back is not the best way to describe a key component of normal good stroke mechanics.

    Question, mainly for JY, but also for anybody. Given that I have the Dimitrov high speed vid to refer to, and that I think I understand the key components to work on to improve my stroke, in what order should I work on those components?

    Recent vids for reference:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQa4VIRh5d8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcHrKgWFg8
     
  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is basically a small inside-out swiping action starting with a tucked in elbow.

    After that action is over, the racket gets to swing around as usual.

    So it gives the impression that you are pulling in. Actually, you are pulling in you elbow and then throwing the hand and wrist into the ball before the racket goes across.

    Again, let me make it clear: you cannot hit a ball forward when the racket is moving backward at impact. It is the same argument I had with someone who claimed that he was hitting down on the ball on the serve while the racket was moving up. No, it cannot happen. He also made convoluted examples and suggesting holding the palm at an angle and then hitting down on the ball and why that would cause the racket to be going up. I was like, no dude, the angle does not matter. If one part of the racket is moving up, every part of it is moving up, and it cannot exert a downward force on an object it touches.
     
  46. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Very good point. Even if with some strange imagery someone can convince himself that it is yanking, it is not "normal good stroke mechanics." It is just a diversion thrown out there for marketing purposes to appear to be different.
     
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    OK time to head out for some tennis
     
  48. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    seems some do not realize that the rackets have 2 ends that don't have to
    both move in the same direction a the same time.
     
  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Arche,

    You are "yanking" at straws. You asked for a Fed video--it will show the same principles. Ask for Djok it won't matter.

    It's physically impossible to hit the ball forward if the racket is moving backwards. And even if you then say, no it's the hand, think about what you are saying for a second.

    What is the effect on racket speed? Racket speed in good forehands maxs at contact, so how is reversing the hand direction going to help that? Sitting in your house snapping a towel is really not a convincing way to gather evidence.

    But even leave the physics out of it. I've looked at thousands of forehands and I have seen many many things, but I can assure you the hand and the racket are never going backwards at contact. I tried to get you to take me up on that free Tennisplayer trial. Why don't you try to find one "yank" in the thousands of pro forehand clips there?

    If you do I will post it for you.
     
  50. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Tom,

    First things first. In the second video where you are actually hitting you can see the slight delay in the start of the turn. Look at Dimtri frame by frame at the turn where the ball is on the court. Model that position physically. Stretch that left arm across hard and feel the pull on your shoulder.

    Create that visual image and imagine the feeling as part of it. Now when the other guy hits, just bring up that image in your mind. Start the turn immediately--don't rush, be smooth--but get to the stretch at the bounce. If you do you may surprise yourself how much pace you generate and you may hit a few balls out. That's a good sign and just work into the rhythm. Use the video to see that you are actually making the position.
     
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