Does Modern Tennis Exist?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JohnYandell, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Jy. You have to know its not my instruction. I'm just trying it. And yes i know the racket does not go backwards as the ball comes at you. I just tried the techniqiue. It feels different and i dont think the pros do it or not. You cant tell from video because even when I watch myself in a mirror the swing looks the same but it feels different. Like I said try it and it feels different. The sound is different. If its right or wrong the racket head moved faster. Thats all. Not endorsing anyone. And anyone can perform the experiment for themselves. Go to you racket bag and just do it.
     
  2. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    He's not going to give it an honest try...he's going to just say it's doesn't work
    and try to convince others that what you and other players are doing can't be.
    If he can't see it in his slow mo, then it's not there.
    Always interesting when those who can't or don't, try to convince others they
    can't either. :???:
    They don't seem to realize how hard it is to convince folks they can't do what
    they have done!
     
  3. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    Uh, I just wiffed a few balls on the ball machine trying to make the racket go back at contact. It's probably just me though or I was being dishonest again by actually experimenting or posting hard data. For someone who claims to have a science background you capacity for delusion and denial is extremely impressive. In case you haven't studied psychology as well, the technical diagnosis for your condition is projective disorder.

    Arche:

    Whatever idea works for you or you think does, go for it. But please don't try to tell me the racket goes backwards at contact unless you have some actual evidence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  4. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Are you really not getting this? I am not saying the racket goes back. I've said this three times. Again the racket does NOT go back. OK?
     
  5. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Arche,

    OK sorry if I got that wrong. We are agreed, the racket does not go back.
     
  6. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Is that what Jy stated? Seems he is trying to twist it to something you or Oscar
    never said about the racket going backwards?
    Don't you love how those with agendas have to change the wording to fit their
    misconceptions. Guess it explains why they don't get it.

    Another clear example of how he can't keep his misinfo straight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  7. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Suresh was harassing me about the racket going back. I kept saying it does not. John must of read suresh post claiming I said its in reverse. While not seeing my replies.

    It impossible for it to go backwards at contact.
     
  8. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    OK Arche Suresh and I all agree that the racket does not go back. But you say it does is that correct?
     
  9. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    we are not talking about pulling backwards. why does everyone keep saying this? I'm saying during the swing you call pull to the left either by the whole body, the legs, the hips, the shoulder or even biceps. i don't use biceps. during the forward swing while the racquet is whipping around going forward on it's own (if you have a nice fluid swing w/ ssc etc etc) you can shift your weight slightly to the left during the whip which pulls the racquet slightly to the left and the rhs increases.
    I submitted an example of kohlschreiber doing it because he exaggerates it
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  10. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    The alleged yank is pulling the racket sharply up and backwards at contact with the bicep... This exists in the tennis twilight zone only.

    In reality the pull with the biceps is one factor sometimes in play and certainly not around contact on many forehands, especially the "modern" straight arm ones.

    The wiper is caused not by any "yank" it is caused by the upper arm rotation of the hitting and the rotation of the entire structure...
     
  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm sorry, lol, but can you show anywhere I said that?? or is this just more of
    your inability to keep things straight? How could anyone listen to your supposed
    insight after watching you flail at this simple conversation?
     
  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thank you, lol, :)

    But really we know why don't we.
     
  13. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Thanks JY. Noted.
     
  14. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    OK but do you think the yank moves the racket back at contact?
     
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think I would word it like that, lol. :)
    I'm not sure Oscar would say it exactly that way.
    Too many word games here and I do think you know what he means.
    I hope so anyway.
     
  16. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    I understand why you don't want to answer-- you are done with word games now.
     
  17. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    But having now sworn off word games how would you put it? What does this mysterious yank really do to the racket at contact?
     
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I know what you and arche are saying. You are both correct. But I don't think that was what was meant originally. To me, the original statement is not what you or arche are saying. It is your expertise that is revealed, not his.
     
  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Then what exactly would he say, and why didn't he say it instead of this?

    His knowledge of English is pretty good - you cannot claim that it is a mis-communication like Nadal's interviews.
     
  20. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    ok. i hear ya. my bad for diverting the thread with a different type of 'yank' than what was in discussion.
     
  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ^^^ BTW I had sent you email but I am already playing on Sunday with a guy at the club who contacted me.
     
  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Do you have an exact quote where he made that statement?
    I feel this exact wording sounds more like Jy/sureshs version of something than
    what I read or experience from Oscar.
     
  23. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    didn't get it :(
     
  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    What is mysterious is how you arrive at your conclusions.

    I say there are too many word games being used here (just like this quote above)
    and you conclude I'm done with word games. By your next post' you have me sworn off
    word games?? I don't start them, BuT Unfortunately I can't be done with
    them since that what you and sureshs constantly trade in and you are often active
    in Modern instruction discussions.
    Saying there are too many words games simply means their are too many;
    to address in this case and mostly sort of silly like the one above.

    All this does help me understand why you two can't understand good modern
    instruction, and why you struggle to make the old terms and descriptions fit
    and work for more modern strokes.
     
  25. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    OK but really what happens in the yank?
     
  26. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    it sounds like you guys are talking about a fade sidespin/topspin shot in table tennis.

    http://youtu.be/MUdE5JwY-eI?t=2m32s

    Doesn't seem like a tennis shot to me. I can understand pulling across in the direction of rotation to get sidespin*, but i don't see that as a normal pro-tennis forehand, or a yanking action at all.

    * I junkball sometimes (more so on slice). It's fun and I'm not a pro, so it doesn't matter.
     
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    you are really enjoying yourself on this, aren't you :)

    Just because I've not embraced the term yet (as you well know), is a far
    cry from counting Oscar out on this one.
    Remember, I studied your work for more years than his, and while none of
    us is perfect of course, Oscar has you 10-1 or better by my account :)

    As players and coaches, we are just all looking for the best sources of info
    out there.
     
  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    If you see the instructions in the video you posted, it is about wrist movement and there is no use of the terms pulling back or yanking.
     
  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is a great question.

    What is the answer?
     
  30. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    OK so he is 10 times better--that must be in part because the yank. What is it?
     
  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Why would you ask me?
    Why don't you ask him in his thread?
     
  32. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    Well if he's 10 times better and you have been studying me for years you must have some knowledge of the yank since it is apparently a critical technical forehand term. Otherwise that exponent may be in question and you can revise it upwards even further when the yank is revealed. You've never hesitated to share your thoughts on "modern" tennis before and this is a phrase from the leader.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  33. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Suresh,

    You are a master of the threads. Do you recall where the yank was introduced?
     
  34. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    kill me, kill me now.
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Really... a critical term?? I can't find it in the books? Maybe you can provide
    that ref since you are so up on his work?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  36. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    yeah, my point was that he is trying to do a sidespin fade on a topspin shot. in table tennis that means laying your wrist back to create that angle. I feel that he, mistakenly, thinks that yanking the racquet across and pulling back will impart the same type of spin in tennis.
     
  37. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:
    So either you don't want to share or you don't know or you don't dare to ask the leader what the yank truly is.
     
  38. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    kill me too lol.

    do these people actually play tennis? in 30+ weather i already put in 3 hours today and i am tired like a dog.

    and these guys are still yanking.
     
  39. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    luv,

    Correction I would like to try the yank if only I knew what it was. And why not have it all? It's 50 degress and partially sunny in SF and I just hit for 30 minutes on my ace attack ball machine.
     
  40. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    lol John I am on your side.... there is no yank..

    the arm prolly contributes 20% of the rhs... the bigger muscles, legs, hips, core are the engine..

    so yank or no yank, pretty much a moot point.
     
  41. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    luv,

    Sorry about the weather...you have to go to the mountains out here to get that temp... (but for snowshoeing not tennis...)
     
  42. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't recall that any more :)

    Was trailing 0-3 in the first set this evening, but then the rain started and I was saved.
     
  44. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Suresh:

    0-3 is a great opportunity for optimism...


    Anyone Else:

    Where is that first yank quote if you can recall??
     
  45. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7SVLDZeX8

    the bent fh like Davy's may give a 'yank' impression on TV, but slow mo shows the arm structure is unchanged.

    like I was saying, in a bent fh, the arm muscle has to work, but to merely maintain the structure.
     
  46. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I tracked it down. Just search in the other thread.

    It was actually used by another poster first (where he got it from I don't know) and then Oscar continued its usage.
     
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The guy was quite serious. He is going to start coaching his daughter, and is trying to play with as many people as possible to expand his skills. He said his regular partner just pushed everything back, and he really likes that I have different strokes to offer to him.

    Also, it wasn't 0-3 actually. It was 0-2 and 15-all in the 3rd game when we had to abandon the match.
     
  48. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    not quite and not everybody. depending on your swing mechanics you can swing w/o using arm muscle contraction to maintain the structure. Also a lot of players let the elbow extend during the swing (not to the point of a straight arm). And also depending on swing type you can also maintain the structure using the shoulder muscles only.

    Nobody thinks about 'using muscles to maintain the structure' anyway. If they do they are arming the ball and have low rhs.
     
  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    OK here is what I got from the other thread--thank you suresh:

    Wegner wrote:

    when you yank the ball to get more power, the racquet first encounters the resistance of the impact with the ball, that is why you see a loss of speed at that moment. But because you are forcing the action with acceleration… the racquet speeds up incredibly and of course you don't intend for the racquet to hit your shoulder or you arm, so you stop it or at least you cease contracting. That is why you see a top player having more than 50 MPH on the racquet head across the body and to his left.

    When you pull from the racquet rather than extending, the contraction of biceps and pectorals connects the body weight to the impact. That, together with the acceleration makes for more ball speed. If you extend, you disconnect, and you actually loose power.

    Please compare to this Federer clip and see if you see any yanking going on:

    http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/tw/fed/fed_inside_out.html
     
  50. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    how can a bent arm stay bent if the muscle doesn't contract?
     
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