Does Modern Tennis Exist?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JohnYandell, Dec 26, 2012.

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  1. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Luv,

    It does exist...I do plan on doing some backhand threads
     
  2. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    Can u point to where wegner talks about internal rotation. Is that in the same section as the yank
     
  3. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I have a pretty neat observation I found today related to this. As I was messing with the yank idea and then internal shoulder rotation idea I noticed a peculiar thing. I ended up at the same place.

    If I used my biceps actively ala the wegner yank in order to not hit my face with my racket the shoulder rotated and the finish was across.

    When I was trying to exaggerate the ISR ala yandel I ended up with just about the same stroke.

    Odd right. Of course there are a million variations of the stroke and finish but the basic "shape" was very similar.
     
  4. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I'm sorry, but what is "internal shoulder rotation"? What is it like, analogy?

    I don't mean to take side, but yanking across the body as a concept, analogy does work! For me at least.
     
  5. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    As your swing goes out of the slot position as it approaches the ball and contact the shoulder rotates forward and the forearm pronates and across. It rotates just how it sounds.
     
  6. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    not the forearm. the whole arm. there's 2 types of pronation. forearm and shoulder. forearm pronation occurs at the elbow. the ISR in disussion occurs at the shoulder and rotates the entire arm. The isr in a fh is essential to maintaining the hitting structure over the course of the swing. once you identify it and have it programmed in you can instantly tell when someone doesn't use it as their hitting structure sort of disintegrates during the swing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    How much info can you get wrong? Is there no end to it?
    Did I claim to have developed any system?

    Jy has shown several vids where he acts as though you should see something
    related to the accel of the racket just prior to contact.
    Just to demo how misleading this approach to it is imo, Ck out this vid of a
    stretched GXR, and how smoothly the front wheel comes up at normal speed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CJsJVEtGrpk#t=14s

    Now imagine how smooth this transition will look in super slow mo.
    Do you have any idea how much more force or torque is require to lift the front
    wheel at speed and at fractions of a second?
    Now imagine how much more force is required to lift that Wheelie
    on a bike that is stretched to help stop the wheel from lifting.

    All that enormous force is applied in fractions of a second...way more than
    any tennis player can generate with a racket swing.....

    And all done just as smooth as can be with no evidence except the smooth
    lift of the front wheel.
    Now why would you expect to see any more visual cue from the effort to
    accel the racket into contact?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Wait a minute here, lol!

    I agree that both ideas can help you to find and feel the stroke, but how did
    Jy get any credit here?? I was the one who mentioned that ISR to you in this
    thread and Jy was the one asking what is ISR. :)
    Awe, Come on Man!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  9. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    That's basically what I said. The shoulder rotates and that makes the rest of the arm rotate. Perhaps I was not clear.
     
  10. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Oh. I thought it was jy talking about the isr. Sorry! Thanks.
     
  11. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    I always noticed that Kim Clijsters and Svet KUZNETSOVA has very exaggerated motion like such..... didn't know it was called ISR.
     
  12. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    how many people are shadowing the ISR in their living rooms right now lol.
     
  13. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I understand,...easy to get us confused...:)
     
  14. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I know. Just wanted to make sure the other guy wasn't confused as he or someone else might have started trying to do forearm pronation only.

    For some reason isr is more easily noticed when you see a match live. Not sure why that is.
     
  15. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Hmm...this ISR thing sounds so complicated. Do you guys know a good youtube video of a pro doing this?

    For me I just hit the ball and ease my shoulder along so not to jam the arm into the chest. That's all! :) Is this caveman's hitting? :)
     
  16. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    just follow jy's arm outstretched instructions. it's just rotating your shoulder. helps prevent the face from opening too much before contact and helps you close the face if you want w/o weird stiff contortions of your wrist and helps you get a more stable hit because your putting a little force in the opposite direction.

    You ever see a slow mo vid where some pro is swinging and the racquet face is slightly closed and through contact it follows a nice continuous angle as if they had wrists of steel and when you try to copy that swing it just doesn't look right or your face opens etc or you can't maintain that swing shape at full speed? Well chances are they are employing a little bit of isr there.

    edit: here's an example although is not terribly obvious. See how Djoko's racquet face and hitting structure seems to maintain it's shape at contact and afterwards? He has a loose grip so he's not struggling to make the face follow that path. Just a touch of isr at the right moment keeps everything 'healthy'
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=mWOVWARCxbU

    u can also see nalby here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJVQ9yKhRYc
    nice continuous path of the racquet face.

    Also if you ever try shadow swinging w/o a racquet like we all do in the super market or while on the phone :) you'll notice how your hand always seems to have a perfect swing path at contact and slightly closed and just flows through the contact point. that's probably cuz your using a little bit of isr.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  17. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Well my first coach as a kid would tell me to finish with a higher elbow at times which accomplished the isr.
     
  18. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    At the transition between backswing and forward swing, along with passive supination of the forearm, is there an element of passive external shoulder rotation prior to the internal rotation?
     
  19. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Cheetah,

    I thought that was the only way possible to hit the ball. Well, actually one of the two ways. The other way being like Sharapova whose racket face moves like an open palm slapping through and through.

    Yeah, I get the elbow raise and maintaining the racket face facing forward as much as possible. :)

    Hey that Nalby's hitting style is interesting, isn't it? It goes against the idea of leading/attacking the ball with the racket edge. He opens up the racket face very early and seems like it's very hard for the racket to miss the ball, right?
     
  20. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yea the sharapova slap. I guess some ppl do it naturally and some have to learn it.

    I know what you mean in that Nalby vid. He's making some nice contact though. That vid reminds me of this Henin video. A little different but similar. She's really striking it well here. I like when she moves back and kicks it up a bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb_yYgT-CL4
     
  21. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    well, to be exact, most of the coaches here use an alias, which i think is a good and understandable thing to do in an internet forum if you don´t want to sell something.
    ´some of the best in the business´- that´s a typical sureshs exaggeration:)
    there is a number of coaches here, whose advice i cherish. two of this folks post in this thread regularly, one of them started it.
    funnily enough they don´t agree about a lot but that´s another story:)
    if i posted a video here, i would listen closely to their advice, and take from it what i like and leave the rest. tbc...
     
  22. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    Isr / Esr !

    so I went out and tried both.... hit some of the most nasty fh and 1hbh I ever hit... trajectory is different, noticeably more spin on the fh... ball is heavier on both wings... and control is better.

    at the end of my 1hbh follow thru, it looks like I am ready to hit an open-stance extreme western fh lol.
     
  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Man, that is awesome. I felt the same when I learned of this aspect of the
    modern technique.
     
  24. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    A lot of tips come from non-coaches too. I have found gems in comments by ordinary players. Once incorporated, I forget where they originated from, so I can't list them now.
     
  25. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    yeah it was good... also i felt that, going with my 'stay sideways not' thread, the esr goes well with opening up.... otherwise i risk shutting the face and dump it into the net.
     
  26. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Summary

    John,

    1.One piece is that numerical data (presented in a graph) should NOT be trusted
    in the interval starting four milliseconds before the contact and finishing four
    milliseconds after the contact
    One of your articles (or BG's) touches the issue as well in the case of SERVE.

    I am referring to the graph of http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6537769 post #198
    It as much simple English as I can handle.


    2.The movement of the racket upwards starts 11 milliseconds before the contact.It is quite late
    I am NOT sure the number of 11 milliseconds is correct
    See the dotted curve crossing the horizontal line x=0 axis at time equal 11 milliseconds.
    It is related to the issue how steep the upward TRAJECTORY IS

    3.The corresponding case (see #2 above) can be analyzed for backhand
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw

    4.Just for the record the data of Fitzell are presented in
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6537769 post #182
    Please see the BLUE DATA/BLUE CURVE.


    4.If you have any feedback about #1,#2 and #3 please let me know,
    regards,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  27. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    are you sure you're not using supination instead of esr?
     
  28. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    neither would i want you to:)
    what a good coach can do is train you, teach you and coach you.
    based on her/his personal knowledge of your game and physical and mental capabilities. that is much more than tips.
    anyway, my aim is not to convince you,i know my limits
    most people will agree that if you want to learn a musical instrument the best way is to take lessons with a certified teacher and not depend on tips over the internet. it´s the same with tennis:)
     
  29. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Yep, a lot of the tips shared on here are good (and a mahooosive amount are pure horse****!), but they are things that other players have been told (either in person by a coach, or something they read in a book or on t'internet) and as such are "second hand" tips - in other words they are not tailored to you and your needs as a player. There is no substitute to seeing a good professional coach!
     
  30. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    i am pretty sure i am doing both - hence the opening up of the posture.
     
  31. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Treb,

    Thank you sir for your gratifying words...
     
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Most of the things I learnt for my work were on my own. And I continue to do so. I did take a clinic end of last year, you know.
     
  33. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    did you learn something at the clinic?
     
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No.

    There was no other option to get some court time during vacation.
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Actually I did develop my Smart Target system, with charting system that goes
    with it. Hmmm
     
  36. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    hey 5263 i think your system is flawed... i left some comments in your thread.
     
  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Smart targets are OK and fancy, but tennis should be simple and based on feel and natural instincts. Just hit where the other guy isn't and don't hit up the middle.
     
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for the feedback, but I thought I had broken it down to the bare basics
    of simplicity.
    Interesting that it is still too fancy or involved iyo.
     
  39. julian

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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  40. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Looks like this vid linked by Cheetah clears up the modern tennis question,
    an below is the evidence of how the stroke is well described in modern tennis.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cheetah

    Also there's this xstf vid where he talks about the laid back wrist:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aHduFqJ-Diw#t=76s

    This vid is awesome for showing how on the inside out Fh, the hand is already
    is moving well across to Fed's left, (our rt) before contact.
    Hand is clearly moving to Fed's left comparing to the background and ball goes off to
    Fed's right.
    If someone doesn't get it from this vid, they are just not willing to accept what
    the vid clearly shows. No idea how Jy could argue the vid does not confirm
    what MTM states about pulling up & across into contact.

    The vid also addresses moving back during the stroke.

    There is another key aspect in telling which of these in I/O and which is I/I, for those who notice.
    __________________
    ************
    MTM Instructor -Pro Supex Big Ace
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Fixed the link above for this vid that clearly show the across hand
    motion by Fed as it passes the items in the background.


    Also there's this xstf vid where he talks about the laid back wrist:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aHduFqJ-Diw#t=76s

    This vid is awesome for showing how on the inside out Fh, the hand is already
    is moving well across to Fed's left, (our rt) before contact.
    Hand is clearly moving to Fed's left comparing to the background and ball goes off to
    Fed's right.
    If someone doesn't get it from this vid, they are just not willing to accept what
    the vid clearly shows. [/QUOTE]
     
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    So does modern tennis exist or not?
     
  44. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Do you think there's a 'hard distinction' between modern and classical tennis? I don't. I agree with the idea that there have been adjustments in stroke mechanics, some of which have become de facto standard for top level tennis, made over the years by the top players to maximize the advantages that changes in racquet and string technology might confer.
     
  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't either.

    On a side note, what is the opinion about the claim that club tennis is way more advanced today than in the past? Meaning that a 4.5 of the old days would be a 3.5 today? I did not say this, but I remember people posting along those lines a while ago.
     
  46. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    What's the basis for the comparison?
     
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Gut feeling. That it is much more difficult today.
     
  48. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    One is to look how much better the pros play today. Not saying those athletes
    would not have adapted as well, but the play has clearly improved imo.

    Also as many have noted, equipment has made it easier to start and improve!
    More improved instruction available as well. Back in the day there
    was little other than the old classic version of things.
     
  49. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    [/QUOTE]

    Great video and instruction, clearly shows more hitting across than towards target. Wow I thought that it is wrong to pull back and hit off the back foot. Why are they not stepping in and transferring their weight forward?

    Why does their racket not go towards the target? I thought that this must be done if hitting correctly, they must have been taught the wrong technique.
     
  50. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I played for about a year in '76, and for about 8 months of 2012, and have been a fan and frequent spectator from '72 to now. I agree that open tournament level tennis looks much faster and more taxing today. But I don't see it in normal rec play from 3.0 to 4.0+.

    I think that play is different. I don't think the pros today play 'better' than the pros of the '70s, and I've seen lots of both up close and in person.

    Yes, today's pro game is much faster and much more physically demanding. But I think, for example, that, playing with wooden racquets and on grass, a Nastase would beat a Djokovic.
     
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