Double bounce or not?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by zcarzach, May 21, 2012.

  1. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    Guys,

    I played a USTA league doubles match on Saturday. I hit a nice drop volley that easily double bounced, but one of my opponents lunged and scooped it just over the net after the double bounce for what he thought was a winner. He was adamant that he got it before the double bounce, but both my partner and I clearly saw the ball bounce twice. We just gave him the point (he was a whiner and we were killing them anyway), but I wonder if that was the right thing to do. Is it his call, like an out call on their side? Or should we have played a let and then shamed the cheater for his poor sportsmanship (same guy hooked me twice on two second serve kicker aces to the deuce court, called them wide from the other side of the court, despite the fact that they were literally two inches inside the line!)?
     
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  2. goober

    goober Legend

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    it is your opponents call.
     
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  3. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    Fair enough. Lame, but fair enough. I'm glad we made the cheater pay by destroying him.
     
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  4. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Maybe he wasn't cheating.

    Maybe, he honestly thought he got it just before the second bounce.

    Maybe you saw it incorrectly.

    Either way, it's his call.
     
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  5. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    If it had been just me, I might agree with you and give him the benefit of the doubt. But both me and my partner were at net and both saw it bounce. Even his partner looked at us apologetically (but didn't say anything).

    But, I guess I've been wrong before, and will be again. Just annoyed me and I wasn't sure how to handle it according to the rules. Thanks for clearing it up.
     
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  6. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    It goes without saying that your partner is bias in this, so his take is useless.

    Does this opponent that you alleged cheating have a history of shady behaviors?

    Anyway, the guys are correct. It's his call. Woodrow is correct in suggesting that you keep an open mind to the other view. At least that will help showing your characters.
     
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  7. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    I'd never played him before, but he called three very good serves faults (wide, not deep) from all the way across the court. The first one, the partner overruled him and gave it to me, but the next two he did not. And these balls weren't even close, several inches in (his partner even acknowledged this later but he didn't correct them at the time). So I had pretty good reason to question his sportsmanship, making "wide" calls like he was.

    I will continue to keep an open mind on points like this in the future, just very frustrating. I'm usually the last guy to question line calls (seriously, even if this post doesn't make it sound that way). We did give him the point, and didn't complain verbally, outside of a quick sarcastic mention that I wanted to know where he got his rocket boosters. Thankfully it didn't throw me off my game.

    Like I said, I wasn't venting, or looking for validation in my point of view. I just wondered if it was always his call or if I could insist on a let. I have my answer. Thanks fellas!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
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  8. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    While the facts are clear (opponent's call) I think OP deserves more sympathy. I feel your pain, OP. I've certainly seen opponents shovel a ball back after a second bounce. Sometimes this happens and I let the return go rather than scrambling after it and give the guy the fish-eye and maybe inquire 'didn't that bounce twice' and they 'fess up, occasionaly they don't and there's just nothing you can do about it except take your ball and go home, best to forget it and move on.

    I'll agree that in just barely getting a ball back after a second bounce, scraping the court and all, a guy might obviously think he got it when he didn't. So it goes.
     
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  9. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I think while it is his call, you might have a case if his partner disagrees with him, ie agree with you. In that case it'd be your point. So, next time don't spend any time to ask him, focus on getting his partner on y our side. :)

    Because of this rule savvy doubles players, however honest but when it gets competitive, tend to play dumb and say they don't know, not sure, not having the best viewpoint, etc.
     
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  10. RadicalMPfan

    RadicalMPfan Rookie

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    Seems like you can't ask a question on this board without getting torn apart. As for bias, most players I play with are more biased against themselves, ie generous line calls and benefit of the doubt situations. I've had many drops shots where I was scooping up the ball as it was hitting the ground, so I give the point to the opponent because I have no clue if I bead the ball to the ground or not. It sounds like this was an obvious double bounce and sadly there is nothing you can do about it.
     
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  11. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Radical,

    Who's getting torn apart?

    OP is getting an unanimous answer and some analytical details with it. That's like getting double the service!

    Re double bounce, I also have had a couple or so instances of disagreement. There's no way to arrive at the fact without an electronic system. The rule is correct, cuz it's likely very hard to cheat with a straight face in that impossible play. So, the one playing that toughest ball deserves the point. In other words, it's easy to get double bounce, but it's nearly impossible to get the ball back and somehow make the whole thing fuzzy.
     
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  12. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    I certainly don't feel like I'm getting beaten down here. I realize that the question (and the topic) can sound like sour grapes. It certainly is not (if this had been match point, well, maybe, but we won 2 and 2 and the opponents were never in the lead). I let it go as quickly as I could (not quickly enough, but I'm working on it), I just had the question on how to handle it the next time it happens. You guys provided the answer to that question and for that I am grateful. Thanks again.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
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  13. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Whenever you think there is a double-bounce or your opponent will never get to the ball, set up and hit the winner.

    There is no clearly recognizable gesture or immediately discernible word to signal double-bounce. People just mutter something, often. If you wait for them to acknowledge it, it is too late to play the ball.

    Sadly, this means that I will usually play the ball right back to the player I think had a double-bounce as aggressively as I can. They are usually off balance, so my shot will be a winner or cause an error. Then we don't have to discuss whether there was a double-bounce.

    The other thing that is annoying about double-bounce situations is that the person will often ask their partner or the opponent. To me, that suggests doubt so they should concede the point. I think the Code is not clear enough that players should resolve doubt in favor of their opponents, and asking "Did I get to that?" suggests doubt.

    And if they ask my opinion, shouldn't they have to go with that, just like an out call?
     
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  14. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    Cindy you are certainly right. I should have been ready to play the shot, but it was so clearly a double bounce I didn't bother moving my feet, so I was "stuck" when he framed it away from me. That will be the lesson I take away from this; never think you've won the point, even when you have won the point.
     
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  15. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    Did you notice the type of spin the ball your opponent hit over the net had? I ask because I learned something watching the Roger Federer vs. Tomas Berdych match last weekend. Federer hit a drop shot that Berdych ran to and got back over the net. Federer won the point with a volley but insisted that it was a double bounce because the ball Berdych hit had topspin instead of backspin. If I understood it correctly, it had to be a double bounce because Berdych hit it as it just bounced off the ground and was headed up producing topspin. A ball that you manage to get your racquet under as it was just about to hit the ground would produce backspin. When you saw the replay, it was very close but Federer was right.
     
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  16. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    I did not notice the spin. He framed it and it just dribbled over the net.
     
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  17. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Along with TCb's line, I also have my personal way to determine (just to amuse myself).

    If the player's racket hits, scrapes the ground, it's likely a valid shot, cuz the ball is very low and that's the mechanic to get it back.

    If the player sorta runs into it and bunt the ball, it's likely a double bounce. The ball is bouncing up and the contact point is high enough for it to be possible which is contradicting to a close call. Make sense?
     
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  18. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    OK, but I gotta warn you: When you smoke the ball right back at the player who played the double-bounce, they are going to get shirty with you. Just hold up your hand and say, "Sorry, I didn't hear you call the double-bounce."
     
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  19. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    Oh yeah, I have no doubt that they won't like it. But that's not really my problem, is it? :)
     
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  20. mctennis

    mctennis Hall of Fame

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    it is HIS call to make not yours. The rules state that.
     
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  21. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Yes there is, the person hitting the double bounce says "NOT UP". Only the player hitting the double bounce can call it on himself unless there is a chair umpire. I've called it on myself numerous times.
     
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  22. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    People don't say "Not up", though. Perhaps they should, but they don't.

    Instead, they say nothing. Or they wave their hands. Or say "Oh, I think that bounced twice." Many times these things are done after the opponents keep playing.

    Even in the pros, the other player will just return the ball despite the double-bounce. Just in case it doesn't get called.
     
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  23. Xisbum

    Xisbum Semi-Pro

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    I always call "second bounce" in this situation if I don't get a legit hit. And I call it immediately and loudly so there's no doubt.
     
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  24. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    But chair umpires say "Not up". :)
     
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  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, they do.

    Perhaps league tennis players should also be miked so their immediate "not up" call can be heard clearly. :)
     
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  26. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    And while they are at it, can't they just put in Shot Spot already? If I could hear "Mr. Dillinger is challenging the call on the right baseline, the ball was called out" just once, my life would be complete... :)
     
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  27. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    in my tennis playing experienced i noticed that a lot of people cheat in this situation.

    for me i can always tell if i got it in 1 bounces or two.
     
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  28. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    For me, I can see how I could make an error on the call.

    You are usually charging at the ball with the racquet extended. You can easily get into a position where your racquet is hindering direct line of sight to the ball. If you hit immediately after the ball bounced, you may not be able to tell the difference.

    I don't believe anyone who says they make perfect calls every time.
     
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  29. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    Right on. I always say something if I try for a ball but know it bounced twice before I hit it. Don't always remember 'not up' but maybe 'no' (could get me in trouble on that other thread) followed by a remark like '2 bounces,' 'didn't get it,' or something. I'm not concerned with talking during the point because I'm conceding the point.

    I feel strongly that the player returning a ball that bounces twice needs to verbally acknowledge it. I hate being at the baseline and having an opponent bunt one just over the net on a second bounce and say nothing, I'm afraid I resent hustling my butt off to try to get to that ball that I can't do much with anyway. A person could sproing an achilles tendon that way for no good reason.
     
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  30. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Mine, too. Many of them even cheat after the ball bounces 3 or more times.

    for me I can always tell and get the ball back with perfect placement.
     
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  31. J_R_B

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    I usually say 'no' and then '2 bounces' as well to get the other guy to stop playing. I don't think calling 'no' on yourself is an affront to the opponents.
     
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  32. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Mr. Dillinger is challenging the call on the right baseline, the ball was called out.

    The call stands. Mr. Dillinger has no challenges remaining.

    (You have now heard it from a certified umpire. Is your life complete now?) LOL ;-)
     
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  33. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    Excuse me? You cannot be serious, man! YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!! That ball was on the line! Chalk flew up! It was clearly in! How can you possibly call that out? He's walking over, everyone knows its in this whole stadium, and you call it out? You guys are the absolute pits of the world, you know that?

    Wheeww, thanks! My tennis life is now complete!
     
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  34. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Code violation, verbal abuse, warning, Mr. Dillinger.

    LOL, sorry, had to do it.
     
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  35. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    You're the most corrupt umpire in the game, you know that? You'll never work another one of my matches again. You'll never work at this tournament again, you hear me??

    :) I'll never understand how McEnroe didn't get defaulted more often than he did... well, except for the money angle.
     
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  36. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    You guys gonna make a TV commercial now?
     
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  37. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    There's you answer. He actually got defaulted after he was on the downside of his career and no longer the most marketable player in the game.
     
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  38. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ooh, ooh! Can I be the wife?

    :: Slaps Woodrow ::

    My life is now complete.

    (You're gonna want to put some ice on that, Woodrow.)
     
    #38
  39. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Wow a slap from Cindy. Now my life is complete! :)
     
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  40. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Don't people say "not up" when they don't get the ball on the first bounce, or doesn't that happen any more?
     
    #40
  41. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Most (or a lot anyway) of league/tournament players don't know that's the correct terminology for a "double bounce". That's the issue.
     
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  42. B@NK@1

    B@NK@1 New User

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    double

    Just do what I do when someone is clearly trying to cheat, Hit a really looooong flat first serve. But to answer your question, it's your opponents' call. It sucks. For me, when ever there is a questionable call where no one can agree on anything, we just re-play the point.
     
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  43. B@NK@1

    B@NK@1 New User

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    also, why is he the one making the call though, in the heat of the action, we see what we want to see. His partner should have stepped in and either agree or over rule his partners' call.
     
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  44. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    His partner may have been behind him or at an angle where there's no way he could have known.
     
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  45. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    This "people", that being me, says "NOT UP". In the pros, you have umpires who do it for you, an honorable player will call it on himself even if the umpire missed it.
     
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  46. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    This could have the makings of a Viagra commercial...
     
    #46
  47. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Speaking of wanting to make calls on your opponent's side of the net. I played a league doubles match recently where whenever we made a remotely close call one of our opponents would stand there like McEnroe as if we'd hooked him. Yet on every single first serve he hit he foot-faulted by miles.

    Eventually after one of his call questionings I said to him he could continue to question every call (none of which his partner ever questioned) if he liked but we'd start calling foot fault on him every time he served. His reply was: you can't make foot fault calls from your end.

    Well... doh! Pot > kettle > black. :lol:
     
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  48. MisterP

    MisterP Semi-Pro

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    This happened to me this past Saturday only I was the one who hit the ball in question. He hit a dropper. I reacted kinda late but got there and sorta scooped it up and over. He just watched it land and called a double bounce.

    Now - I was running my @ss off and had to nearly lay out forward just to get a racquet on it, but I didn't see it bounce twice and I didn't hear it bounce twice. I feel like I picked it up within an inch or so of the ground. My racquet grounded out when I got it.

    When he called the double bounce I stopped and shook my head and said, "I think I got it just before the second bounce." He said he didn't think so, and I said, "No, I'm pretty sure it didn't bounce twice." He recommended that we replay the point and we did. I lost the replayed point.

    So in this case since I was 90% sure it was not a double bounce should I have just taken the point? Or do I need to be 100% sure, kinda like calling a ball out (if you don't know for sure, then it is in)?

    What would you have done?
     
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  49. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    That exact situation happened last night. Our opponent hit a ball that apparently was a double bounce--I didn't see it but my partner did--and it floated up in front of me about chest high so I just put in away between them. My partner then said, hey that was a double bounce, and the guy who hit it sheepishly said that it was.

    So I agree, if you can, put the ball away then there will not be a question about whether it is a double bounce or not.

    I should add that my partner last night is also a tennis official and will be umpiring the upcoming NAIA men's and women's national championships so when rules questions come up on court you'd better know what you are talking about if you disagree with him.
     
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  50. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    This is a case where it should be obvious to anyone watching (or certainly playing) the shot. Even though our eyes might fail us in seeing the ball/racquet contact point, the ball behaves very differently if it is on the way down (legal) or a half volley on the way up (illegal double bounce). Heck you could tell even if you were watching it on TV.
     
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