Doubles GOAT ?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by robow7, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    If the pro majors is equal to the modern slams, then they woudn't say anything about the B. Brothers set the new record. I'm sorry but their name are in the record book, not Hoad/Rosewall.
     
    #51
  2. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    Did you ever consider the remotest possibility that since players in the past were regular doubles players that there is a chance they could be better than the doubles specialists of today?

    Frankly I like the Bryan Brothers but I'm truly curious why you're battling so hard for the present day player again in this case.

    What do you think of John McEnroe as a doubles player?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
    #52
  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,963
    Yes, "they" would, because "their" record book includes the old amateur majors, but not the pro majors.
    That is, Laver supposedly won only four, not five, Wimbledons, although the field he beat in 1967 was superior to the 1961-62 fields.
    Hoad was used in ads in the late fifties with a description of his winning the Forest Hills Pro event, not his Wimbledon accomplishments. There was no doubt in his mind that this was more significant than winning the amateur Wimbledon.
    Sometimes realities transcend the official world.
     
    #53
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    TMF, Where is the logic left? You can't cut off the whole history.
     
    #54
  5. robow7

    robow7 Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    Messages:
    967
    I saw him play dubs several times and in my opinion, never a better doubles player in any era, he just didn't play long enough with Fleming, or any other partner for that matter, to rate as the best doubles team.
     
    #55
  6. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,938
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Court had several successful partnerships during her career, although none were very long term. Wade was good..and she had success with Dalton and Bowery as well. If I had to pick which of all the partnerships was strongest I would probably go with her and Wade...although Dalton is not a bad choice.

    Funny though in this instance only the Williams factor in in my mind in this discussion for the last decade or so. As much as I like Lisa Raymond/Sam Stosur and respect Huber/Black....they don't come close at all in my mind

    I think doubles today suffers largely in the sense very few partnerships in the last year have lasted more then like..2 years. I mean how many partners has Lisa Raymond had, for instance. No one really seems be able to make it last...although Raymond/Stosur, Black/Huber and Ruano Pascal/Suarez do stand out a little.
     
    #56
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    Well TMF NEVER gives any credit to players of the past, even as recent as perhaps 25 years ago. McEnroe to his great credit for example won his last doubles tournament as last as 2006. That's not long ago. Federer was actually number one then.
     
    #57
  8. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,511
    #58
  9. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,561
    Really everyone, relax. It is pretty obvious that when the media talks about these records they are referring to open era records. Surely everyone knows that by know and has come to accept that it is difficult to compare records set before and after the onset of the open era.

    The more I read through these topics with TMF, the more I realize that this might be one clever guy. He makes a few posts and half the members are fuming mad and calling on the mods to delete their own threads! :lol:
     
    #59
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    NadalDramaQueen,

    Truth is much easier. You overrate TMF who underrates tennis history. He is just on the level of Tennis Channel. That's all.
     
    #60
  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    Well if you're referring to me I wasn't mad but I really wanted to make that a good thread. When I saw it wasn't happening I figured it wasn't worth fyi.

    I don't mind what TMF writes as long as there is a good give and take. Sometimes it's just a rehash of past posts. But if you want I will ignore his rehashes of certain things.
     
    #61
  12. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,561
    I'm just messing around, pc1. I do have my suspicions about TMF though. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
    #62
  13. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,464
    Biggest mark against Mac/Fleming

    To me the biggest mark against Mac/Fleming is that when Mac was at his absolute peak they nearly got beaten by two players who were both long retired and both in their 40's - Newcombe/Stolle. That to me says huge amounts that they probably wouldn't be able to handle the likes of peak Newcombe/Roche.
     
    #63
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,715
    Bobby, even if we disagree often I must take my hat off for this post
    TMF problem is just that he belongs to a generation that is completely lost
     
    #64
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,715
    Not in my book
    The aussies have by far dominated doubs since 1940's or so and Newk and Stolly are two of rhe best ever, both could be top 5 and are at least top 10
    In doubs you just cover half court so age is no factor
    Newk and Fred had prepared the event months before and witj their doubles experience mo surprise they reach finals and beat such a team like Lutz and Smith in the semis
    Hewitt and Mc Millan were almost 40 both when trashed young Mc and Fleming in the 78 Wimbledon final
    Age means nothing and it is definutely a plus in a game so much based on instinct, strategy and court sense and positioning
     
    #65
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    It's possible. Maybe it's one of those conspiracy theories that turns out to be true.:shock:

    Here's a novel idea, maybe he's what he seems to be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
    #66
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    timnz, I agree. Newcombe and Stolle had not played together before of that tournament.
     
    #67
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    Thanks my old friend.
     
    #68
  19. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,561
    Perhaps everything is as it appears, but the effect is still the same.

    I agree kiki. I find that the best way to deal with the know nothing generations is to sit out on my porch and mutter to myself as they pass by. Life is too long not to be bitter.

    I said nothing about TMF's knowledge of tennis history. There are members who underrate the past, and then there are members who overrate the past. Neither group is correct. This particular forum needs TMF to balance the scales. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
    #69
  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    To be honest I think TMF knocks the past because it makes Federer look better. Federer is a part of the present.

    It's funny, you make it almost sound like a Zen type of thing. TMF is there to balance the universe. lol.
     
    #70
  21. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,963
    What do you mean?
    The article you quoted says "Grand Slam history", which goes back to...1968?
    Is that when the Grand Slam was invented?
    No, 1933, when Vines went to Australia, but failed at the Australian, giving Crawford a chance at the first Grand Slam.
    And the article compares the Bryans to Newcombe/Roche, who started their record in the amateur circuit before 1968. About five or six of their Grand Slam titles were BEFORE 1968.
    They are not just looking at the Open era.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
    #71
  22. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    The best single players can compete in doubles but you can't assumed that they would also dominate the doubles specialists. Bobby insinuating the Bryans isn't that great because there were no top single players play double. Do you think Nadal or Nole chose to play double they would be better than the Bryans thus winning more than 13 slams??? The Bryans played together since they were a child. For all those years they perfected their game. They had perfect feel/sense for one another on court. If you replace one of them with one of the top single player, the rhythm breaks, the chemistry is gone, and of course the bond is gone. In case you didn't know, not all players can be a good double partner. Double players have to search/replace the player which they believe it will work out. They just don't blindly pick random player from the pro tour. The Bryans are unique.

    Also, not all top single players were great in double when Mac was playing, so you(and bobby) can't assumed anything in this era.

    In regard my post to Dan, I was correcting him that the Bryans set a record for winning 13 grand slam double titles. He refuses to accept the fact.


    I'm probably wasting my time with this post because I can understand you supports Bobby, kiki, Dan because you are from the same fanbase.
     
    #72
  23. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,963
    Again, the record here is NOT a post-Open record, but includes results BEFORE Open tennis.
     
    #73
  24. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    modern slams > pro majors > amateur slams

    Thy B Brothers holds the slam record, only posters from planet TT believe otherwise.

    There's nothing more to argue.
     
    #74
  25. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    Did I said I ignore the whole history?

    I just told Dan that the Bryans set a record for winning the most grand slam double titles(13).

    Please read....

    Bryans win record 13th Slam title
     
    #75
  26. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,561
    I am currently writing up a strongly worded email to ESPN. They will rue the day!

    Perhaps, but in the same sense many posters knock Federer because it makes the past look better.

    I don't know about Zen, but there is always someone available to fulfill a necessary role. You create your own monsters.
     
    #76
  27. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    #77
  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    I think this thread is safe from deletion because it belongs to robow7, who i don't believe is fumed.
     
    #78
  29. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,963
    Perhaps we should make a distinction between GRAND SLAM doubles titles and MAJOR doubles titles.
    By majors, we should include the important professional championships in the era before 1968.
    The only problem with this is that in many years the composition of the major pro tournaments changed, even after 1945. There were gaps when Wembley or the French Pro, for example, were not held, or when the US Pro was not accredited and had minor fields (1952-62). We get the illusion that pro tennis was an indoor sport.
    In some years, major pro events were created outside the three indoor events referred to as the "pro slam", and overshadowed them, for example the Forest Hills events in the late 1950's.
    For the sake of reality, it might be a good idea to restructure the "pro slam" on a year-by-year basis and select the three or four most important pro events.
     
    #79
  30. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,963
    No, the Bryan brothers hold the modern slam/amateur slam record.
     
    #80
  31. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    Well I don't believe I(or anyone in here) are in the same knowledge level as the Flink, Evans or Bollettieri. But thanks for the compliment...I'm flattered.
     
    #81
  32. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    25,781
    Location:
    Weak era
    LOOOOL! :)

    TMF has a right to his opinion and we shouldn't disrespect it, that is all.
     
    #82
  33. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    Like I said, modern slam > amateur slam. But I know you want to believe they are both equal. To each his own.
     
    #83
  34. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,963
    You are missing the point, which you yourself raised.
    The MEDIA, including the reports cited above, include the amateur slam records of Newcombe/Roche in the total of wins being compared to the Bryans.
    The MEDIA do not start their records in 1968, as you claimed, but take the AMATEUR slam records into account.
     
    #84
  35. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    If you won 13 modern slams, would you trade them all for the amateur slams?

    I don't think the Bryans would be crazy enough to do that.

    That is why Emerson's 12 amateur slams has so little weight in compare to the open era slam.

    Capiche ?
     
    #85
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,715
    Now we all beloved posters have heard it all
    A suposed expert DARES to compare the twins to Newcombe and Roche
    I thought age prevents us from upsets but it certainly does not prevent human mankind against that curious and challenging specimem that, since scence has not officially named,we will call TMF
     
    #86
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,715
    Kid I found your generation too funny to be bitter
     
    #87
  38. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,561
    Remind me which generation I am a part of, my dear kiki. :)
     
    #88
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,715
    I know you feel time wasted every time current era is not worshipped
    You are right that many all time great teams were doubs specialist but not necessarily big singles stars like Riessen and Stewart or Hewitt and Mc
    But in the past, the aussies all played doubles and since they were also the best in singles that s why many great doubles players happened to be top singles too
    Last team with big singles&doubles stars were Connors#Nastase and in a lower degree Gottfried-Ramurez, Jarryd-Edberg and Fleming- Mc Enroe
    From late 80 it became a mere specialist business
     
    #89
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,715
    Justin Bieber?
    If not you definitely made a deal with devil, my beloved Nadalqueen
     
    #90
  41. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,561
    Not quite, my friend.

    I've made no deals with the devil, but I did discard my cranky old man memo when it arrived. :)
     
    #91
  42. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    It's pretty clear that some of you are not happy about the B Brother's achievements.

    This is exactly what the Sampras fans felt in 2009 when Roger broke his record 14 slam titles.
     
    #92
  43. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    Hey I like the Bryan Brothers. I hope they get a lot more majors. However I do think they are trying to inform when they discuss doubles teams of the past.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
    #93
  44. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,353
    Actually the thought occurs to me that it wouldn't be that bad to have the players commit to a certain amount of doubles tournaments. It probably would have the volleying skills of some of the players today. John McEnroe used doubles instead of practicing.
     
    #94
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    TMF, When Newcombe-Roche were great they had to face very strong duos: Emerson-Laver, Rosewall-Stolle, Okker-Riessen, Hewitt-McMillan, Lutz-Smith and so on. The Bryans have nobody to face.
     
    #95
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    TMF, A person who believes inTennis Channel ruins his/her own reputation as a tennis expert or fan....
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
    #96
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    zagor, I agree: Everybody has the right to his opinion even it's a wrong one. But also everybody has the right to contradit him or her.
     
    #97
  48. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,773
    kiki, Very well explained. I do hope that even younger persons will realize it.
     
    #98
  49. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    That's your opinion. I don't believ none of them would have won 13 slams in today's era.
     
    #99
  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,060
    At least they are fully knowledge of past tennis AND modern tennis, you don't. Saying you're more of an expert than them(eg Flink) is like Randy Moss is saying he's better than Jerry Rice.
     

Share This Page