Doubles GOAT ?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by robow7, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    TMF, You astonish me more and more. You now even believe that doubles competition now is greater than in older decades when there were many strong duos! I can't stand you...
     
  2. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well you better get use to it, because many people believe the B. Brothers are the best double player.



    From **********.net, here's the list of the top 10 all time best doubles duos:

    1. Martina Navratilova and Pam Shriver: 21 Grand Slams, winning every major at least four times and a calendar slam in 1984, achieved during a 109-match winning streak.

    2. Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan: The American twins are well on their way to becoming the greatest team ever with a record 73 titles to their name, including 11 Grand Slams.

    3. Todd Woodbridge and Mark Woodforde: The Aussie duo set the bar for the Bryan brothers during the 1990s. Their record of six Wimbledon wins looks safe for now.

    4. John McEnroe and Peter Fleming: McEnroe was the doubles world No.1 for a record 270 weeks, winning 57 of his 71 titles with fellow American Pete ‘Flembo’ Fleming.

    5. Venus Williams and Serena Williams: As dominant in doubles as they have proven to be in singles. They have won all twelve Grand Slam finals they have reached.

    6. Martina Hingis and Jana Novotna: In 1998 Hingis claimed all four doubles Grand Slams, capturing Roland Garros, Wimbledon and the US Open alongside the Czech.

    7. John Newcombe and Tony Roche: The Aussies ruled the roost in the 60s and 70s, capturing an amazing 12 Grand Slam victories, including five Wimbledons.

    8. Mahesh Bhupathi and Leander Paes: The ‘Indian Express’ landed three Grand Slams before their professional relationship broke down. They have since reunited.

    9. Gigi Fernandez and Natasha Zvereva: The American-Belarussian team were one of the most entertaining – and eye-catching – pairs around. They won 14 majors.

    10. Luke Jensen and Murphy Jensen: Not the most prolific in history (just one Slam – the 1993 French Open), but ambidextrous Luke and Murphy were great value

    http://www.**********.net/news/on-tour/2011/08/08/top-10-deadly-doubles-duos
     
  3. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    One other major reason why so many pre-Open and early Open era singles players were very good at dubs was the fact that the games were more similar then, most players served and vollyed in singles and of course that was and is the staple of doubles. Contrast that with today when none of the top singles players serve and volley much and you can understand why they would not excel at dubs, though there are exceptions.
     
  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    True enough. But the trend started for doubles specialists I guess around the mid 1970's or so for the top singles players not to play doubles to rest for the singles. I think that hurt the quality of talent playing double. I would tend to think that everything being equal the top singles players, assuming they have more talent should also do better than in doubles than doubles specialists. Of course it's not necessarily true because it depends on the chemistry of the team. A Newcombe and Roche, with great chemistry and a perfect doubles style may do better than doubles specialists because they have greater weapons and talent. Hard to match the excellent serves of both combined with their super volleying.

    I have no doubt if the top players today played more doubles the volleying standard today would go way up. John McEnroe used the doubles as an alternative to practice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  5. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    Yea, the older era of players were forced to play both singles and doubles because the money wasn't so big back then and they needed the income. Once the money got so big, many said "screw the dubs" as they do today.
     
  6. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well for a player like Nadal that's going to be hard because he's struggling just to compete in single. He doesn't have anything left to compete in double. Nole had a great run from starting 2011 by winning 5 slams. Had he chose to play double and put as much effort to win slam in double, that could possibly cost him winning in single. It's not that easy.

    EDIT: I know the Williams Sisters play double, but they don't play that much in single unlike the top tier players in the ATP, and the WTA isn't as brutal as the ATP.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It was a suggestion. I'm not asking for many doubles tournaments played.

    Funny how you mention it is not easy since the past players often played a large schedule of doubles as well as singles. Just wanted to point that out.

    Someone should research who plays the most singles and doubles nowadays. I would be curious to find out the answer.

    Just checked Andy Murray and in 2011 he was number 68 in doubles.
     
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    TMF, At least among the tt posters you will hardly find anybody who ranks the Bryans as the best doubles of all time.

    You are probably unique in believing that the current doubles competition is tougher than that of the Newcombe/Roche time...
     
  9. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Everything, and I mean everything, TMF says is designed to in some way inflate the achievements of Federer. Thus his assertion that the level of play in the game today (singles and doubles) is higher than it has ever been before.

    While his argument may be reasonable enough for singles (although I know many here doubt that), it's certainly not true in doubles. Previous eras when many of the top stars also competed in doubles were much stronger than now. The Bryan brothers are great ambassadors for doubles but simply winning the most Open Era majors against weak competition does not make them doubles GOATs.
     
  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Of course. What amazes me is how someone can love a player so much? Well to each his or her own. :shock:
     
  11. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Phoenix1983, what you're saying is if Fed paired with Wawrinka or Nadal paired with Lopez they would be a better/more accomplished than the B Brothers just because they are a great single players. I don't think so. Winning 13 slam doubles a lot. Nole, Nadal and Murray haven't won 13 slam in singles, so how do ones believe they would do even better than the B. Brothers is beyond comprehension. I'm a huge Fed fans and I agree he wouldn't be better than them.


    I'm not a fan of the B Brothers but I'm only a few in here who respect their achievements instead of disparaging them. Hell, he broke JMac for most weeks #1, which you believe he's one of the great doubles. Why not give same praises for the Brothers ??
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Phoenix,

    I'm positively surprised and very glad about your newest post. Thanks that you agree at least regarding doubles competition once and now.
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    TMF,

    Joining Federer with Wawrinka is not the same as pairing Newcombe and Roche or Laver and Emerson. The top duos then consisted of TWO great players.

    I have read many strange opinions on tt (and perhaps other posters and readers have read some strange statements of mine) but your claim that doubles competition is tougher now than in older times, could rank as the most embarrassing in this forum.
     
  14. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Strange list.
    Where is Hewitt/McMillan, who dismantled McEnroe/Fleming when they were practically seniors.
    Sedgman/McGregor, the Grand Slammers?
    Hoad/Rosewall, who won 15 major titles (MORE than the Bryans) against TOUGHER competition than the Bryans have faced.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  15. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Funny, where was that shock when a fellow historian was arguing that Federer isn't top 10 in the list based on peak play and longevity or when another historian was claiming Nadal is Fed's equal indoors? Don't be a hypocrite.
     
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    First of all Zagor, I can't always comment on everything. I frankly don't know what you're writing about. I was expressing an opinion of someone admiring a player so much and how I don't understand it. I also wrote to each his own. How is that being a hypocrite?

    And as I've written here numerous times, I'm not a historian nor do I claim to be but the connotations of that here are obviously very negative. I don't know why because we are discussing past players here and by definition we all and that includes you are discussing history.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  17. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    All zagor is getting at is that you often overlook some of the things you find fault with depending on if they are a "historian" (someone who calls themselves an expert) or not. Don't get me wrong, you are a great poster, especially when you consider many others, but that is why it is such a letdown when you don't say anything or even (the worst thing) act as an enabler, giving encouraging words to a poster who is consistently using poor reasoning. No one should be rude, but there is no need to coddle everyone.

    Perhaps the competition was tougher in doubles, but there is no way to prove it to the extent that someone isn't allowed to have a different opinion. The only embarrassing thing is to think you know something for sure that can't be shown to be true. Take note that you also removed a small portion of your post, which made it sound much more self-righteous.

    Also, it is funny that you are going to use Hoad's achievements in order to claim he is the best doubles player, yet you ignore such achievements when we are talking about singles. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  18. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    So a different question or angle, what must the Bryan Bros. achieve to be considered the greatest doubles TEAM of all time? How many majors, how many tourney wins, how many weeks or years at no. 1, or is it even attainable since they play in this era? Seems awfully unfair if there is no way that they can ever achieve that status no matter what their accomplishments.
     
  19. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

    Give this man a prize! :lol:

    There is no way to win in this regard (at least on this forum). Too many wins and it is a weak era, not enough wins and you fail to meet the necessary requirements.

    Take solace in the fact that given enough time, all the stubborn people who cling to their own eras will go away, one way or another, and records from those eras will be more objectively viewed. :cool:

    It is too bad that nothing but the grim reaper can cure human ignorance.
     
  20. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I think it's obvious that the standard of doubles has declined from the days when the great singles players were regularly competing. Many of the greats up to McEnroe's era honed their skills in the doubles and brought great talent to the table. Now we have a few specialist teams like the Bryans and a lot of mediocrities.

    Just because I disagree with you re: Rosewall doesn't mean I find all your statements incorrect. :)
     
  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Not really because I have disagree with many people no matter who they are. Obviously some people I tend to disagree more than other. I disagree with you on occasional but I don't write anything either. It's perception I believe.

    I disagree strongly with Kiki about the strength of Kodes but I have to admit that some of his lines about Kodes is very funny and he intends it to be I think.

    As far as the doubles are concerned, who really knows? I've seen some great doubles teams that combined incredibly well despite a lesser amount of singles talent. Hewitt and McMillan are a great example of this. Both had decent singles records especially Hewitt but in doubles they were great. Hewitt was very very very slow but with great strokes and Mcmillan was somewhat limited in reach. But in doubles, covering half the court they were awesome. Some like Newcombe and Roche were way way ahead in singles talent but in doubles they were close to Hewitt and McMillan.

    It's all so subjective and I don't have all the information on doubles that I do in singles. Perhaps BobbyOne or Andrew Tas may be able to inform us of some of the stats of Rosewall/Hoad, Newcombe/Roche, Sedgman/McGregor, the Bryan Brothers, McEnroe/Fleming, Richard Norris Williams/Vinnie Richards.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  22. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I'm sorry, pc1, but mixed doubles must be banished from league play. I'll take that fight to my grave. :)

    I agree that it is perception, and everybody tends to be less motivated to contradict those posters who have views that align more closely with their own. I know that there have been specific incidents where you have let me down, and I'm sure you have felt the same about me, especially with your deleted thread. In my defense, the thread seemed to be inseparable from the height discussion, and I was kidding for the majority of the post. :lol:

    To be clear, I don't think the doubles today is as good as it was in the past, but I am not confident enough about it to act like a jerk. That is really my only dog in this fight, that people don't realize how easy it is for their perceptions to be completely wrong.

    I just want to add that the best part about this thread is that Dan and Bobby can finally hold hands and skip happily off into the sunset. Hoad and Rosewall can be tops together.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I hope so too.
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I don´t either.They would have won 30.
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    what is this very prestigious source?
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    and there is also the financial issue.Now, a regular journeyman can make a living without doubs.In past, even the stars needed to play it since there was little money in the game.
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I was thinking that I was in the Twilight Zone when Dan and BobbyOne were agreeing so readily also. But let's face it, while we may disagree or agree with either of them, they generally know their stuff.
     
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Your point proves mine.Since big money entered the game, that happening from 1970 on, less need to spend time playing doubles to make the needed additional income.
     
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    if he was a smart guy, he´d be fed´s best marketing agent.maybe even better than Vines agent:)
     
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Glad to know somebody aknowledges the SA duo.Yes, they trashed the Mac/Flemnig duo at a Wimbledon final.That was the last prove of their greatness.
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So.. you don´t include Vines as a major doubs player?
     
  32. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I am one who has negatively called some of these guys here "historian," but used that term not in a sarcastic way. I stand by that. Check it out. Kiki basically admitted today the following:


    All that crap he talks about today's game, and how magical the past was, and he barely even follows the tour. Can you say biased here? History's even going after all. Bobby admittedly also has said he ain't following the current tour as much, yet they come out with some quite opinionated, controversial, and supposedly "knowledgeable" statements. All I hear out of kiki's mouth in regards to contemporary tennis: is weak era, Fed's h2h with Nadal, not as good as the old days, f***** Kodes, etc. Not much sage talk there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  33. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    Funny thing, must be an echo in here.

    Yesterday, 09:06 PM #105
    robow7
    Semi-Pro

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    Yea, the older era of players were forced to play both singles and doubles because the money wasn't so big back then and they needed the income. Once the money got so big, many said "screw the dubs" as they do today.
     
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Will you someday have an opinion by yourself and leave TMf´s shadow?
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...and the forrest will echo its laughter...
     
  36. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    absolutely nothing to do with my comment at all. I just don't like hypocrisy.
     
  37. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Anyone want some pie?
     
  38. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actually you did comment in that specific thread, you were preaching about certain posters' right to have their opinion, how we shouldn't disrespect their opinion etc.

    BobbyOne and Urban posting stuff that is at the very least comparable (if not outright worse) to what TMF is posting on this topic, your response - Let's give peace a chance, they're merely sharing their opinion with us, we shouldn't disrespect their right to have an opinion, it's interesting to see things from a different perspective, we learn so much when he read an opinion that is in such stark contrast to our own bla bla bla.

    TMF posts similar stuff, your response - What a love stricken fanboy, I'm shocked and amazed.

    Please.

    Meh, historians is just faster to type than former pro regulars, though there are other reasons for using that specific term of course and is about on par to how Kiki and Limpin refer to posters who don't share their infatuation with pre open era tennis.
     
  39. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    I like pie. Pie is good.
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    when are we having Limpin aboard again?

    Feel too much burden carri´n the old good tennis on my shoulders
     
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    robow7, I thought that TMF is the only one who ranks the Bryans first. Have you ever considered that there are weak and strong eras? Have you realized that the Bryans don't have any tough competition in contrary to McGregor/Sedgman, Hoad/ Rosewall and Newcombe/Roche?
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Thanks again, Phoenix.
     
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NadalDramaQueen, I find it a great pity that Dan is already married. Dan&Bobby would be a great couple...
     
  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    Thank you for this praise for Dan and me.
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, by the way, Vines with Tilden ( a rather strange formation maybe) beat Lott/Stoefen (the 1934 best amateur team) in the 1935 world tour and at Wembley.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, Could not be it the other way? That kiki and I followed the current and recent tennis but that we are not too impressed by it? I see enough to be able to judge the modern tennis.
     
  47. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Don't let it get to you. There are always people who watch the world pass by.

    I was thinking more along the lines of the "bromance," which may be the purest form of love. :)

    It could be that way, but it isn't. :twisted:

    Ah yes, but the only thing that matters is how you use that knowledge.
     
  48. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    Bobbyone, I'm only asking questions, playing Devils advocate in some instances. You misunderstand if you think I'm stating that the Bryan Bros are without a doubt the finest dubs team ever. IMO, Impossible to define GOAT unless you first define your criteria and those criteria vary depending on what you feel should be emphasized. If the boys play for another 3 years as they say right now and put up big numbers then where do they then stand?
     
  49. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Just opinions from tennis fans. I know you don't like it because Jan Kodes isn't on the top list.
     
  50. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Well-deserved praise, some of which should go to PC1, who is also well-informed.
     

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