Doubles tactics for dummies!...

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ross K, Jul 13, 2010.

  1. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Okay - that's not a bad strategy on the face of it. But depending on the quality of the ball being returned, it could leave open a pretty wide range of possibilities to cover. Especially in pro tennis.

    Not very likely. Read on...


    Here's the meat of what I am saying. If Lisa is able to return a blocked shot into the tramlines by Paes off a good, wide serve from Moodie, I claim she has the area covered. This is not a 20 mph floater, but a pro quality block, maybe 40 to 50 MPH. But if Paes hit a 100 MPH screamer, she wouldn't have a chance. Thus, the term "coverage" to me is a matter of degree.
     
  2. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    OK, Lisa was 11 foot away from covering a flat return down the line in the screenshot I posted. If Paes were to hit a slow 50MPH block forehand, that's 5280*50/3600 feet per second= 73 feet per second. The baseline to the net is 39 foot, so she'll have 0.53 seconds to get her racket on passing shot 11 foot away from her.

    How many steps do you think she's going to take in that 0.53 seconds?
     
  3. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    I'll give you my answer in advance.

    One.

    I think you cover most well struck, low over the net down the line shots with one crossover step and a reach with your racquet. And I'd guess for Lisa Raymond, that would be about 7-8 foot. Meaning she's leaving at least a 3 foot gap down the line uncovered on that wide serve. On any reasonably well struck shot by Paes.
     
  4. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    See the gap she's leaving and know that it's an illusion. Paes can't hit that shot consistently. Raymond knows that. Paes knows that. That's why Paes will very rarely try and hit that shot in spite of the fact that Raymond's leaving at least a 3 foot gap uncovered.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You are wasting your time with this guy bhupaes.
    He knows that his assertion that "covering the line is bad advise" and is not even supported by Cayer. He tries hide this related to position, which Cayer says should change all the time and often show opposite of coverage. Then he mis-states my position with- "5263 said there is no reason not to leave those 1 in 100 shots uncovered."
    Which I never said one way or the other, since I surely don't know what his 1-100 shot means.
     
  6. Off The Wall

    Off The Wall Semi-Pro

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    My take on this: is Lisa (and others that leave an opening like that) is baiting big time. Only, the returner knows he is being baited, so he probably won't go for it. Lisa knows this and stays pretty much put.

    That's how I do it. The farther toward the middle of the court I set up, the less likely I am to poach. Conversely, if I can make you comfortable by positioning closer to the alley, the more likely I am to cut off returns across the middle.

    If Lisa's partner's serve is great and the returner can get nothing on it, Lisa could be standing pretty much anywhere. If he tags it, she doesn't hit it.

    A DTL return could be considered a returner's poach. They hit it there enough to get the netperson thinking.

    Then again, pros are pros. I wouldn't recommend setting up like they do for everyone.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You have it right bhupaes.
    You may remember one of the things I did in the past as a Navy pilot was work search and rescue with the coast guard. As the On Scene Commander, I was given a search area to cover. Like in tennis, different search patterns gave different levels concentrations and probability to various parts of the area, but all areas were covered. Just as in tennis, we had to pick the pattern or method that gave the best focus at the best places, based on the elements we faced, but the whole area was covered to one extent or another. Having the right focus to match the situation was the key to a successful search.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, and in the pic you can see her loading her inside foot to push out wide to try and keep the dtl covered.
     
  9. Off The Wall

    Off The Wall Semi-Pro

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    Yes. I'm guessing she/they set up inside on first serves primarily. The return of these serves will usually be less focused. On second serves you'd want to set up more toward the outside because of the better returns.

    If you set up toward the middle, you are inviting a DTL shot. Therefore, you need to be able to cover it. Hence, if the returner can hit brisk CC returns, an inside netperson will seldom cut them off...(they have to respect the DTL they left open).

    Nor do I really like going wide on serves a lot. I've been able to be more creative with wide returns.

    A down the T serve makes an alley return even tougher. The netperson has eliminated half the court; and the only good play is at the server's feet (I'm assuming s/he is coming in).
     
  10. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    The record speaks for itself about my claims, I've repeated it again and again and yet still, 160 posts into this thread, you are misrepresenting what I've clearly said again and again and worse, using quotation marks around something I didn't write. Here is the record:

    and yours:

    You've been all over the place. You say, "I do agree that you never need to cover a shot that you don't think a given opponent can make a few times", but then you say you can't see any reason to leave anything uncovered. You say you wouldn't leave anything open on a big point where you can't afford to see a 1 in 10 shot, then you claim to not understand what I mean by a 1 in 100 shot. You concede that not being passed down the line during a match means that you should have been positioned more aggressively, then you deny it when I say the same thing. I've explained what I understand you to be saying several times in the thread, and you haven't contradicted it. Now when I summarise you deny the summary which is the obvious conclusion of your statements. You claim to quote Louis Cayer, yet you give no references. I give a video where he says exactly what I say he said.
     
  11. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    Do the math. She's 11 foot away. She can't get there in half a second. A small shift in her right foot doesn't change that - not that I believe she's pushing off towards the alley - she's split stepping. If she was pushing off towards the alley as Paes is making contact, her timing is wrong, and she's been wrong-footed - that return is going cross court.
     
  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Above is a great example where you have twisted things to change the meaning.
    I made the statement in attempt to find the common ground in our points, and you took it and twisted it to be an admission that your point is entirely correct, instead of trying to seek a mutual understanding. Reminds me of explaining things to my 10 yr old.

    I said "I would concede that maybe we could have positioned more aggressively since we did not give up one single dtl pass during the 2 quick sets." I did not say we should have and that is a big difference to those who can understand such things.

    You can waste a lot of time twisting things, but you did say:

    "cover your line" is bad doubles advice."

    "I don't think I've ever played with anyone who I thought "I wish they'd cover their line better" (although I've played with lots of people who can't volley the down the line shot well). I've lost count of the number of people I've played with (even very good players) who think they're doing their job by standing close enough to the tramlines that the opponents never hit down the line.
    As the net man you need to cover one half of the court. If your opponents are never trying to pass you down the line, you're not covering half the court."

    Net man covers half the court??
    Never played with a played who should have covered the line better??
    Just cause someone chooses not to attack your lines, you are not covering half the court??
    And you don't see her loading on the inside foot?

    All that said, I want to apologize for taking your comment wrong, but I felt it was quite blunt and coming from the wrong direction on this.
    My experience has been just the opposite of yours, often seeing players who get burned dtl often and at bad times. I have rarely seen the need for more help down the middle from my partner.
    Maybe in the states, we attack the lines more than where you play. My next tip along these lines for around here would be to get players to pound the middle more and pick better times to hit dtl.
    I expect that if I often played with players who rarely got hurt dtl, I would see it more like you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  13. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    You're being obtuse. There's no doubt about what I've been saying for this whole thread. I've explained what I mean when I said "cover the line" - the actual sideline. I've explained it half a dozen times.
     
  14. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    sorry I didn't get this edit out in time.
    I think you are wrong, but we are both entitled to our experience.

    Above is a great example where you have twisted things to change the meaning.
    I made the statement in attempt to find the common ground in our points, and you took it and twisted it to be an admission that your point is entirely correct, instead of trying to seek a mutual understanding.

    Net man covers half the court??
    Never played with a played who should have covered the line better??
    Just cause someone chooses not to attack your lines, you are not covering half the court??
    And you don't see her loading on the inside foot?

    All that said, I want to apologize for taking your original comment wrong and drop it, but I felt it was quite blunt and coming from the wrong direction on this. I do think some good things came from the discussion though and we generally remained civil overall, so thanks for that. You and and Cindy have made it more clear to me why this can be tough for players to get a handle on.

    My experience has been just the opposite of yours, As I often see players who get burned dtl often and at bad times, just like a crucial pt where Paes hit the dtl at the Wimby finals that set up closing out the first set. I have rarely seen the need for more help down the middle from my partner.
    Maybe in the states, we attack the lines more than where you play. My next tip along these lines for around here would be to get players to pound the middle more and pick better times to hit dtl.
    I expect that if I often played with players who rarely got hurt dtl, I would see it more like you.
     
  15. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    Apology accepted. Obviously I can't speak to your experience, but knowing how aggressively top pros position, I almost never see more aggressive positioning in amateurs, at least where I live. Or in youtube videos I've seen (haven't watched that many though).
     
  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    observations on Bryan bros today against 2 Russians. I taped it for review.

    Russians covered moved to cover the dtl on wide serves fairly consistently as did the bryans in the deuce court. Bryans seemed to follow the ball so well and stay in front of it most of the time. At times the did overplay the middle and this seemed to me to be when they felt that the hitter was under big pressure. Felt the bryans covered the middle harder when good wide first serves were made to the backhand ad court. They didn't often hit out wide with a second serve ( saw a couple when way up in the score). Their range at net on hard balls was unbelievable. Must be partly due to great read of the racket, cause they covered well in both directions. No one positioned as hard to the middle a Lisa R IMO..
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  17. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    Could you put up a torrent and post some screenshots?
     
  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry, I can't do anything but watch what I record on my DVR. I did see some of the coverage you mention and saw something I'd noticed before that seems much more important after our discussion here. When the players started in tight with their partner serving out wide, they turned to face the return in a very deliberate way that sort of changed the court in a sense. It allowed some pretty good line coverage with that strong middle presence. By turning about 40 degrees to that outside, it gave them the ability to stay in front of the return in a very different way, allowing them to cut off angles to each side. When I get time I'll find one of your screen shots that depicts this. Do you you use this as well?
     

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