Drop weight stringer vs better stringing machines QUESTIONS

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by makos101, Jul 21, 2010.

  1. makos101

    makos101 New User

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    I have a winn pro jr drop weight stringing machine. Im getting decent at stringing but will the quality of the string job i do on my drop weight stringer be the same as on a more expensive machine? Please let me know what you guys think. I dont wanna string more expensive strings in my racket if the quality isnt as good as if i were to take the rackets to be done on a better stringing machine. Thanks for any suggestions.
     
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  2. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    if you're a decent, consistent, deliberate stringer yes you can achieve more than satisfactory results on a simple dropweight machine.
     
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  3. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    as long as you know what you're doing and doing it right it will be the same result.
     
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  4. makos101

    makos101 New User

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    I know its going to be slower on a drop weight machine. But its cheaper than giving someone money to string it for you. Also I have a question on my drop weight stringer. When I'm stringing and I drop the weight for ideal tension should the weight be parallel with the racket? Thanks for the Info.
     
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  5. makos101

    makos101 New User

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    Does anyone have instructions on my winn pro Jr drop weight so I can make sure I'm doing everything right to get the best results? Thanks I appreciate it.
     
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  6. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    Yup. You want a --- idr but I read somewhere that you can be off by a certain amount and still get the desired weight.
     
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  7. Macro80

    Macro80 Rookie

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    Fixed clamps over floating is more important that the tension mechanism.
     
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  8. jgrushing

    jgrushing Rookie

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    I'd argue with you on this. With proper clamp adjustment, there shouldn't be perceivable difference. I know the theory about drawback but, to me, it's a non-issue. Drawback doesn't affect the tensioned section of string between the clamps (at least, if they're not slipping).

    Dropweights, even the least expensive, will deliver great results in experienced hands. They're a little more work intensive but even that's not a big deal.
     
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  9. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with this 100%.

    Sorry, but this is wrong. Ron Yu was on the boards discussing how drawback on a Neos' clamps (fixed) can result in significant tension loss when compared to a machine like the Star 5. And the loss here is minimal when compared to a floating clamp.

    Floating clamps are horrible IMO and allow too much tension loss. This comes from someone who used floating clamps and a dropweight before moving up to a Neos. I'm now thinking of going to a 1500 or a Star 5.
     
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  10. pingu

    pingu Semi-Pro

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    That's right, try to get it parallel as much as you can :)
     
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  11. pingu

    pingu Semi-Pro

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    That's a reason why I got my Klipper. I save a lot over the years and that's all I need :)
     
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  12. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

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    Ok... the thing is, who really cares. If the racquet plays good and you can repeat your results then it doesn't matter what happens at the clamps.
     
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  13. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

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    in the mid 80's i bought a several year old k-mate.

    floating clamps, etc. although it did have a very crude 6 pt mounting system, not sure if it was homemade or what. i have not seen anything similar since, but it worked well, just wasn't quickly adjustable.

    i strung my own rackets for a few years during HS and almost every racket
    came out playing the same (1-2/week.). Once i had it dialed in, I was good to go. repeatable, good playing results.

    easily achievable, even with seemingly crude tools.
     
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  14. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. However, I reponded to correct inaccurate information.
     
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  15. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    Unless he was stringing in lock out mode on the Star 5, you'd expect somewhere around a 10% difference in outcomes on a lockout machine like the Neos versus a CP machine like the Star 5.

    Maybe he took that into account, but from my basic experimentation I don't notice any difference with or without drawback on fixed clamps. At least with a CP machine. The next pull typically removes the drawback from the previous tensioned string.

    Maybe if you have the link you could share it since I'm sure Ron has some good thoughts on this. Thanks.
     
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  16. Macro80

    Macro80 Rookie

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    Id have to continue that argument im afraid. Having used both fixed and flying clamps you cannot even compare the two. Fixed clamps, especially if made by Babolat in my experience, have substantially enhanced tension retention compared to their floating/flying cousins.
     
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  17. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Well, maybe I dreamt it. I'm sure you looked and I can't find it either. But I know I read it. dadgummit. I know since I 'read' I have paid a lot more attention to my clamps. The great thing about a digital read out is that you can see when you're losing tension and fix it before you string. Until i can find it, consider this a retraction.

    Does the Star 5 have lockout mode? I know the Wise does and I've seen the difference on it between lockout mode and constant pull and it is really amazing.
     
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  18. Macro80

    Macro80 Rookie

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    Does the Star 5 have lockout mode? I know the Wise does and I've seen the difference on it between lockout mode and constant pull and it is really amazing.[/QUOTE]

    Why would anyone choose lockout mode over constant pull? I dont understand it.
     
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  19. SW Stringer

    SW Stringer Semi-Pro

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    Why would anyone choose lockout mode over constant pull? I dont understand it.[/quote]

    Because with the Wise doing the pulling, in lock-out mode the stiffness for each string would be nearly identical (assuming equal length strings), and not dependent on when the operator clamps off (variable times here) which gives inconsistent stiffness. The computer can be a lot more consistent than a human especially when compared to a beginner. Read a few thousand posts on stringing and the one thing that jumps out at you is consistency above all else.
     
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  20. jgrushing

    jgrushing Rookie

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    I'm not a physicist but I guess I just don't understand. When you pull tension, you're pulling against the clamp on the other end, then, with the tension still attached, you're clamping that off. If the clamps don't slip, how does drawback affect the section of string now between the two clamps?
     
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  21. High Roller

    High Roller Banned

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    ^^^^^

    Sorry chief, but electronic CP maintains tension irrespective of when clamping occurs. That is the point.
     
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  22. jgrushing

    jgrushing Rookie

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    I didn't say anything about "when" clamping occurs. My point is that the segment of string between two clamps, whether fixed or floating, should maintain tension the same if the clamps do not slip. That's my whole point. Not saying a cheap floating clamp is better than the clamp on a Star 5 or anything.
     
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  23. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    We don't really want to go there. What is important is to have a stringer that will hold the racket without distorting the frame, clamps that do not slip or damage the string, a tensioner that pulls a true consistant tension, and an operator that knows how to do the job properly and keep the stringer maintained.

    Irvin
     
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  24. Matt21

    Matt21 Semi-Pro

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    I'm not a stringer (yet) and I do not currently own a stringing machine. But what has me a bit perplexed is how do you not lose a bit of tension with a flying clamp vs. a fixed clamp. In my mind, a flying clamp (even well secured, as in, not slipping) will have gravity pulling down the clamp that is hanging from the string to which it is affixed.

    In the case of the fixed clamp, b/c it is fixed to the base, the clamp isn't "pulling down" on the string. Am I correct in my thinking and if so, is a fixed clamp machine going to give you truer tension?
     
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  25. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    The clamping system theory seems to depend on who you speak to! Stringway for example are big proponants of flying clamps and the JayCee stringing method uses them almost exclusively (please put me right if this is wrong). The theory is that in a flying clamp each of the strings is pulling in a different direction but with equal force, therefore assuming the clamp is properly adjusted and no string is slipping through the equal force balance each other out and therefore the drawback is zero. If it's badly set then the string may slip in one direction or the other and some tension will be lost.

    However, the same is true of a badly set fixed clamp so both can be fine in the hands of an operator who knows how to use them correctly. I would guess (only speculating :) ) that it is easier to produce an decent string-job on a high end machine for a poor stringer than for a cheap machine.

    The long story short...it's the stringer not the machine that counts!

    Ash
     
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  26. aussie

    aussie Professional

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    Yes Ash, totally agree with your points. A portable drop weight wth floating clamps in the hands of a competent exponent will poduce a decent string job. An inexperienced or perhaps attitude-challenged stringer may be better using a high end machine where attention to detail skills more relevant to the drop weight machine are not as important.
     
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  27. Technatic

    Technatic Semi-Pro

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    Jaycee is smart!

    I have read quite a lot about Jaycee’s ideas about the flying clamps and I think his theories are quite smart. And if I understand it right he has been the one who activated Stringway to make the triple clamp.

    Major thoughts of John are:
    - The triple clamp hardly rotates because it clamps 3 mainstrings at the same time, so the drawback is very small.
    - A flying clamp looses less tension because it is not connected to the base, the drawback energy can not “run” away. Like with an electric current, that can not run when there is no connection.

    I think that the other reason that Stringway flying clamps play in a different league is that these are high quality tools. In fact they use the same parts for the flying clamps as for the fixed clamps.

    I do agree about the last statement: The stringer can make and break the job on any machine.
     
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  28. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I borrowed a friend's drop weight just to see what it was like to string with one and floating clamps. I had always heard how accurate they were. First thing I did was to put my calibrator in to check the tension. It was way off I had to raise the weight to 66 pounds to get 60.

    My calibrator reads 60 on my electronic, another friends soranno, and when I hang 60 pounds of weight from it.

    Irvin
     
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  29. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

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    True that the scale markings may be off but once you've 'calibrated' 66 pounds to mean 60 pounds, it will never need to be calibrated ever again. That's what they mean by drop weight being accurate.
     
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  30. aussie

    aussie Professional

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    And in another thread I detailed after considerable testing how accurate my Klippermate pulled a specified tension. I must admit I was surprised at how accurate the K'mate was.
     
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  31. High Roller

    High Roller Banned

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    Not to mention, their drop weight system is in a different league as well. ML100/120 are the cream of the crop in drop weights whether one chooses flying clamps, fixed DA clamps or glide bars.
     
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  32. ethebull

    ethebull Rookie

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    The beauty of a drop-weight machine is its simplicity and low cost. Consistent technique will achieve consistent results. Properly adjusted clamps, fixed or floating, will also yield consistent results with careful technique.

    I'm not sure what to make of Irvin's comment about an inaccurate drop weight machine. What machine was it? The tension achieved is a pretty simple calculation based on the geometry of the pulley system. Here's how it works:

    The string lays on a grooved drum such that the center of the string is aligned with the drum surface. On my dw machine the drum is 2.5" in diameter, or 1.25" in radius. The weight slides along the tension bar to adjust the mechanical advantage of the system. On my machine the weight is 3.725" in length > the center of gravity will be 1.8625" from the mark on the tension bar. My 50# mark is 7.75" from the pivot axis. The center of gravity will be 7.75 + 1.8625 = 9.6125" from the pivot axis. 9.6125 / 1.25 = 7.69 is the mechanical advantage factor of the system. So, 50 / 7.69 = 6.5 = the weight of the drop weight itself.

    FYI, The drop in tension pulled when the arm comes to rest above or below horizontal is a function of how much the effective arm length is reduced.

    On a drop weight stringer, the actual tension pulled when the arm is 10 degrees above or below horizontal is

    .9848 (the cosine of 10) x setting = a 1.5% loss

    At 20 degrees above or below horizontal:

    .9397 (cos 20) x setting , a 6% loss
     
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  33. athiker

    athiker Hall of Fame

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    I have a Klippermate and have recently found myself daydreaming about a 6 point mounting system and fixed clamps, but I only string for myself and don't breaks strings often so just can't justify it. I would keep the dropweight part though, I kind of like that process for some reason.

    But to your question, yes the flying clamp's weight is pulling down on the string via gravity but, at least with a constant pull machine such as the Klippermatie dropweight, you drop the bar and put the string under tenison, then you remove the flying clamp, so now there is no weight sagging the string and reclamp before lifting the dropweight.
     
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  34. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    the problem is, when you tension the next string and release the flying clamp, there is considerable tension creep. This is due to a couple of things. One, the amount of string untensioned behind the clamp and two the racquet itself. When you pull tension, the turn of the string against the frame locks that string down. Strings behind it don't get a lot of "help".

    I've used flying clamps and fixed clamps. I find fixed clamps to be vastly superior.
     
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  35. jgrushing

    jgrushing Rookie

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    No argument Rabbit. I just know that I get very consistent results on my Klippermate. I've strung on it and a Prince Neos lots. At the same reference tension, I get a firmer stringbed with the Klipper and floating clamps. I know the difference between constant pull and lockout. But, you'd think that if the floating clamps were losing much, that diffential would be wiped out. It's not...so my conclusion is that I must not be losing much to clamps, drawback, etc.

    It all comes back to the fact that my results are quality and consistent. That's all I need.
     
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  36. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    I have used both fixed and flying clamps and the notion that there is no "creep" with fixed clamps is totally false. You still get it, but maybe not as much as with flying clamps.
     
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  37. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I agree consistency is the only thing that matters. It is what you get used to.

    My results with two previous machines, a Tremont and a Gamma dropweight, differ from yours though. I get a much firmer stringbed with the Neos and the delivered lockout tensioner. I get a more consistent stringbed with the Wise Electronic tension head. The difference between my Neos and Gamma to get the same feel was about an 8 pound drop between the two. With the Wise tension head, it's about a 4 pound drop.
     
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