Eastern Forehand Grip For Flat Serve?

[Cindysphinx]

A friend of mine told me she serves with a continental grip for her topspin second serve, but she uses an eastern FH grip for her flat first serve.

I am puzzled by this, as I have been told not to use an eastern FH grip for serving. I use Continental or go a little past Continental if I want extra spin.

Then again, I don't hit much of a flat serve. I'd sure like to hit a flatter serve sometimes.

Does it make sense to serve with an eastern FH grip? If so, I'll go out and try to learn it. And if a grip change isn't the answer, how do you go about flattening out your serve, anyway?

 

[DarthCow]

You wont be getting enough pronation on the flat serve with an eastern grip.
Many beginners use it, but continental is the most preferable.

Also, you will start to be using more arm with the EG.
Stick with continental i say.

 

[Jonny S&V]

A friend of mine told me she serves with a continental grip for her topspin second serve, but she uses an eastern FH grip for her flat first serve.

I am puzzled by this, as I have been told not to use an eastern FH grip for serving. I use Continental or go a little past Continental if I want extra spin.

Then again, I don't hit much of a flat serve. I'd sure like to hit a flatter serve sometimes.

Does it make sense to serve with an eastern FH grip? If so, I'll go out and try to learn it. And if a grip change isn't the answer, how do you go about flattening out your serve, anyway?

You can actually get surprising power with an eastern grip, but it does cut down on the degree of pronation that you can get. I've seen really tall guys use eastern forehand grips, but they can get away with it because of their height.

 

[spot]

You can get lots of power by using an eastern grip and pulling down on your elbow. But you don't get any spin at all and these serves tend to be pretty low percentage. The basis for a great serve is to use the continental grip where you can get power and spin both.

 

[Solat]

yeah as been said above, the EG is actually easy to flatten a serve with because it squares the racquet face on contact. This is good for a basic power serve, so average joe tennis player will probably enjoy it

However it has very limited potential and will top out at a certain level. Therefore the Cont grip forces the player to pronate to get their racquet through and square, but what it does more importantly is move the racquet through 180 degrees merely through forearm use which happens at the top of the swing which is therefore at the peak of acceleration.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Is it worth it to try to learn EG in addition to Continental, sort of as a specialty serve? Or would it be too low percentage?

Do the high-end players here ever use EG for serving?

 

[tennisfreak15347]

I've heard of using the Eastern backhand grip for serving, but never the eastern forehand grip

 

[Rickson]

Don't use an efh for any serves.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

My coach was for school was telling us to use this for the flattest serve we could hit. I just kept using continental for everything and I still do.

 

[2nd_Serve]

Most beginner-intermediate servers use eastern for their starting serves, but later move on to continental.

 

[Cenc]

for 1st serve use either continental or eastern backhand

 

[wyutani]

you know what...if you think you can use an EG to serve then go ahead. Don't listen to other ppl's opinion or anyone saying "YOU MUST USE CONTINENTAL OR U DIE!!! AHAHAH"

I mean, at the end of the day, its whether you like using an EG for your serve. If it works then hell yeah! use the EG for ur serves. Don't listen to other ppl's opinion. I listened to ppl for many years now. and my serve sucked. Till I move to an EG serve grip, my serve greatly improved.

Though I use a continental for my 2nd serve though.

Its entirely up to you.

 

[Dimcorner]

I use eastern backhand for slice/kick and conti for flat. I know a few people using EG serves in the league but they seem to be pretty predictable serves and quite a few of them end up either behind the baseline or in the net.

One lady here however does a funky side/under spin on the serve and it caught me the first 2 times but it has no pace.

 

[TomT]

A friend of mine told me she serves with a continental grip for her topspin second serve, but she uses an eastern FH grip for her flat first serve.

I am puzzled by this, as I have been told not to use an eastern FH grip for serving. I use Continental or go a little past Continental if I want extra spin.

Then again, I don't hit much of a flat serve. I'd sure like to hit a flatter serve sometimes.

Does it make sense to serve with an eastern FH grip? If so, I'll go out and try to learn it. And if a grip change isn't the answer, how do you go about flattening out your serve, anyway?

The eastern FH grip is the most natural, I think. I use it for my serve as well as my forehand.

Some serves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGE7qe_dfMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UAw1-8p02A
I think the recommended way to learn to serve is with the continental grip, but I've never had the benefit of any personal coaching, so I just stayed with what felt natural. In any case, my serve is pretty well grooved as I write this. My second serve is done with basically the same grip and motion as the first. I vary speed, location and slice spin on both first and second serves to keep opponents guessing and off balance (though as you can see from the video, my serve is pretty flat, more or less), and regularly hit several dozen service winners per match. At the very least, against higher rated opponents, my serve almost always gets me into the point. Against lower rated opponents it's a weapon.

So anyway, I don't know what's appropriate to say about grip and serve. This is just my two cents from personal experience.

 

[TomT]

Is it worth it to try to learn EG in addition to Continental, sort of as a specialty serve? Or would it be too low percentage?

Have you tried it? How does it feel to you? I would suppose that just about anything can become high percentage if you practice it enough.

I get between 70% and 80% of my serves in, and I'm hitting them anywhere from 75 to 95 mph. So, serving with an eastern forehand grip can be high percentage and effective. But I'm not sure it would be a good idea for you to do an eastern forehand grip on your serve. I would guess probably not. The continental is more versitile as far as I know, and you should be able to hit relatively flat using that grip.

How do you hit relatively flat serves? Well, how do you hit relatively flat groundstrokes? The main idea is that, on contact, the racquet face is moving in basically the same direction or trajectory that you want the ball to go. You're not brushing up or on the side of the ball but hitting it square on. Just experiment and you will eventually catch on to just how you would do it with your continental grip. Then repetition, repetition, etc.

 

[sureshs]

That is true. Many veteran club players have evolved their pancake serves to a high percentage and serve fast and low. These serves are better than many ineffective spin serves (with correct technique) of their competitors.

 

[tkoziol]

I teach an efg for serves for about half of my students. Here is a thread that I talk more about it: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=461173

Here is probably the most important excerpt:
Here is why:
Typically a continental fh grip for serves will allow the wrist snap in the service motion. This wrist snap allows players to have a much higher toss and utilize their reach. It also enables them to hit with much more spin (using continental especially). More spin means a higher initial top speed, and a higher percentage. A win win situation right? Normally I try to teach the majority of what pro players do. However, in this case I do not. Although Becker did use this serve, its irrelevant.

An E fh grip will inhibit the wrist snap. This means the toss will be lower (better in wind), and the serve will stay very low. This serve will be flat as a pancake. It will cause the ball to penetrate the court extremely well. Obviously you will have a lower initial speed, however you will have a much higher final speed. Most people fail to take this into consideration.

Have you ever noticed that when Nadal hits a serve 131 MPH the commentators comment that it is a big serve (almost a patronizing pat on the back), but when Isner hits 131 MPH the commentators praise him? No its not because they are Rafa haters, Isners serve is much more flat. A flat serve will conserve its initial speed much better. A serve that is 131 MPH will only be 95.31 MPH by the time it reaches the opponent http://www.donthireddy.us/tennis/speed.html. In person, you can see this drop in speed. The serve with lots of spin will have more of an arch (giving the opponent more time to react and it will sit up after the bounce. This loss in speed, bounce characteristics, and in-air-effects are more commonly discussed in groundstroke threads: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...=296863&page=2. In sum, Pros hit a flatter shot for the offensive put away due to the ball staying low, penetrating the court well, and maintaining initial speed.

If a flat serve is so awesome then why don't more pros use it?
Flat serves are very inconsistent. Its worth repeating. Flat serves are VERY inconsistent. Taller players are able to hit a flat serve more consistently (due to their initial height giving them more clearance over the net). This is also why tall players tend to hit a flatter ball on groundstrokes as well. In the Pros a second serve can mean certain death. Pros are able to attack second serves with ease (even well hit second serves). Have you noticed that whoever wins a match typically has a high first serve %? That is why pros do not hit super flat serves.

Why do I teach it to some players?
Very few players that I work with have aspirations to play on the pro tour. Typically attacking a second serve is uncommon for high school and rec players (assuming the second serve is hit well). I think Pancho Villas said that: "you are only as good as your second serve." This is what I teach my students. Have a VERY strong second serve. Typically, the topspin serve kicking high to the backhand (if hit somewhat soft) becomes less effective at the 4.5-5.5 NTRP level. Then you need variety or need to hit it with much more spin and accuracy. Pros hit nearly perfect second serves, and they are still crushed if they have to rely on second serves. I do not find this to be the case, except in 4.5 level tennis or higher (btw this is strong 4.5 Florida playing everyday NTRP).

Philosophy
Tennis gives you a rare opportunity to have a second try regardless of your first try. Why not go as huge and risky as you can on your first try? If an NBA basketball player got two tries to sink a wide open shot, I guarantee you that 90% or more would go for a 3-pointer on their first shot.

Final Thoughts
I have had exceptions before. And when that 3.5 level player is able to crush a topspin second serve, then I obviously work on increasing first serve percentage (which is quite easy to do with a slight grip change and more topspin). Normally, until the 4.5 level, a high kicking topspin serve is almost a weapon on its own (not just a tool to help the serve stay in and keep the opponent back). Yes your first serve percentage will be bad (around 50% on an average day). However, few players under 4.5 have the ability to crush a second serve on the rise.

Hope this helps!

 

[josofo]

this guy hits rather fast serves with a forehand grip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRw_gNnwFU

 

[rkelley]

this guy hits rather fast serves with a forehand grip.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRw_gNnwFU

That's a continental grip.

 

[rkelley]

Hi Cindy,

I'm going to one of those folks that says do not use an E. fh grip serve. The continental is the way to go. You can hit it anywhere from flat to lots of spin.

An E. fh grip serve is totally flat as others have said. It's really hard to get this ball to land in unless you're really tall, like well over 6'. So it's likely going to be a low percentage serve for you.

The motion to hit an E. fh grip serve is very different than a continental grip serve. On the E. fh grip serve you have to get your shoulders rotated more toward the net and you're using your wrist, forearm, and upper arm in completely different ways when compared to a continental grip serve. You're really going to have two different motions that you have to practice and maintain.

And a continental grip serve can be hit flat, with spin, and pretty darn fast. Getting some topspin on a hard first serve, which can come fairly naturally with a cont. grip and is basically impossible with an E. fh grip, is the really important to getting the ball to land in the court. The spin can also cause your opponents problems.

So why have two serves, and one that's likely to be fairly inconsistent?

In answer to one of your questions: there are no pros or high level players that I'm aware of that use an E. fh grip for serving, including Becker and Berdych. Ask Ash, John Yandell, or one of the other folks here who actually have access to pro players. If they say they know of a pro who used (or uses) an E. fh grip serve then believe them and not me, but I've never seen it in any video that I've looked at, including the one posted above.

 

[boramiNYC]

not ideal but Efh can be used for good serves, even for spin serves. really an amazing server with conti grip can serve very good serves with E fh grip after some adjustments.

 

[LeeD]

Use it if you lack the control with a conti grip.
Like when you decide to hit with your OTHER hand, serves go faster with a eastern forehand grip.
TRY IT. Untrained, try serving conti, then try serving eForehand.
It's probably good if you don't overhit up to 90mph on flat first serves, goes out towards the right for righties.
I won't recommend it if you can hit 100+ with your normal conti grip, but it's a good grip for players who have control problems using conti for flat serves.
If you hit a solid conti grip serve, stick with it.
But if you only can top/slice or slice with conti grip, then EFH grip gives some control so you can hit it flatter and faster.

 

[RogueFLIP]

As many alluded to, as a beginner I used my Eastern grip for a nice hard flat serve.

Worked for a long time, but my level was low and so were my opponents.

As I've improved, and the quality of my opponents has improved as well, many have been able to handle and return those hard flat shots easier.

Took a long time to get used to the Conti grip, but the variety, control and consistency afforded me with that grip, I can't go back to the flatter serve.

 

[LeeD]

Twas just hitting some serves to a fellow 4.0 today, slipped in ONE serve rightie, conti grip.
He didn't notice any difference.
He did say my leftie serve was the fastest he'd faced in "a while" though....

 

[TennisCJC]

Is it worth it to try to learn EG in addition to Continental, sort of as a specialty serve? Or would it be too low percentage?

Do the high-end players here ever use EG for serving?

No, practically no good servers use E grip. Exception is maybe Boris Becker. But, Federer, Sampras, Raonic, Roddick, and on and on all use a conti for all their serves. Rafter seemed to use a soft conti that maybe was shaded toward an E at times but still predominately conti.

By the way, unless you are 6' 3" or taller, you are probably wasting time in hitting a flat serve. Sampras' first serve had over 2,000 RPM. I have watched Isner from courtside and he hits a lot of spin on 1st serves too. The physics just don't work if you are average or short in height. You cannot hit the ball hard and get it to go in unless you bend it in the air with spin. If you don't bend it with spin, the only other way to get it in is to hit is slow enough for gravity to bend it. Justin Henin served a lot of spin on her hard 1st serves. Watch how Federer's serve bend even when he hits a big serve down the middle from the deuce court. Granted, some tall guys hit almost a true flat serve but even these serves have some degree of spin to get some bend on the ball.

 

[LeeD]

:???::???:
Umm.... sir....
This thread is for OP, a 4.0 level doubles playing 5'4" hottie of the female persuasion, not intended for future Isner's, Groth's, Jankovichs.
Hottie is over 40 years old, did not play ball throwing sports in her youth, has no aspirations (not realistic ones anyways), of making a Div1 college level women's team.
She needs to maximise her serves NOW. Not 2 years hence. And even with a perfect form and grip, she is still a rec player who doesn't spend 10 hours a week perfecting her serves.

 

[Dags]

She needs to maximise her serves NOW. Not 2 years hence.

Actually, she started this thread almost five years ago...

So how is the serve now, Cindy?

 

[TomT]

Actually, she started this thread almost five years ago...

Y'know, I didn't even notice that when I posted my recent ... posts. No wonder I shank so many balls and make soooo many unforced errors. Details! Focus! Thanks for the general heads up!

So how is the serve now, Cindy?

I wonder if she's even aware that this thread has had recent replies.

 

[keithfival]

I use an eastern grip for flat serves and even more eastern for kick serves. I'm a strong 4.5. Not a huge serve, maybe 90-100mph, but I get a very high % of first serves in, hit my spots, and rarely miss a second. I find I have much more control/accuracy on the flat serve with an eastern grip.

In fact, sometimes if I start missing flat serves long I'll notice that my grip has drifted towards continental. I'll go back to eastern and bang, I can hit my spots again!

Give it a try if you're curious, it works for me!

 

[rkelley]

I use an eastern grip for flat serves and even more eastern for kick serves. I'm a strong 4.5. Not a huge serve, maybe 90-100mph, but I get a very high % of first serves in, hit my spots, and rarely miss a second. I find I have much more control/accuracy on the flat serve with an eastern grip.

In fact, sometimes if I start missing flat serves long I'll notice that my grip has drifted towards continental. I'll go back to eastern and bang, I can hit my spots again!

Give it a try if you're curious, it works for me!

I soooo don't want to wade into the NTRP police thing, but I've just never seen an E. fh grip serve be very good, and without a good serve it seems like it would be very difficult to get to a high 4.5. A high 4.5 could be a club pro. Does anyone have a club pro who hits an E. fh grip serve?

With an E. fh grip I've seen two variations: great velocity (and possibly placement) and never goes in, or poor to decent velocity and is totally attackable. And at the rec level a 100 mph serve is reasonably smokin', so I'd throw that into the great velocity bucket. In all cases the serve bounces at a comfortable and consistent knee level due to the lack of spin, and you can read the location well before contact because the server must square up the face of the racquet to the ball very early into the forward stroke.

There are lots of great youtube vids. Get a continental grip, watch a couple of youtube vids or some pros, or both, and then go out to a wall and practice some nice, controlled serves. Don't kill it, just get some nice form happening. Platform stance (it's simpler than pinpoint), simple smooth motions, toss the ball up and bend the knees, swing. There's a bit more to it than that, but not a lot really. You should eventually be able to hit a solid 60-70 mph serve with some spin with not a lot of effort. For a whole lot of folks that will work pretty well, especially if you can get a bit of direction control on it. But the really cool thing is that with this foundation that you've now built, if you want to start cranking some more pace or spin, or both, you now can do it basically by swinging harder and tweaking the good motion that you have already developed.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I use an eastern grip for flat serves and even more eastern for kick serves. I'm a strong 4.5. Not a huge serve, maybe 90-100mph, but I get a very high % of first serves in, hit my spots, and rarely miss a second. I find I have much more control/accuracy on the flat serve with an eastern grip.

Post a video.

I'll have to see it to believe it.

 

[Wilson6-1]

This is an old thread, so I am not sure it is even relevant for the OP anymore; however, as most have said, the continental grip provides so many more options and the pace of a flat serve (whether continental or eastern) is not going to be significantly different, unless the player simply cannot connect with the continental.

Under 5.0, serve variety is more important than pace. Really, over 3.5, flat serves with pace simply are blocked back (with pace).

If the eastern grip works, go for it. Whatever works, just mix it up a little (placement, spin, pace and depth). If you can do that with an eastern grip, it is good enough.

 

[MikeHitsHard93]

I'm a 3.5 and I constantly go back to the eastern grip for both my serves, however my second serve has always been one of my weaknesses. I can hit absolute bombs with my first serve, and my opponents really have a hard time returning them. Lately, I would say my first serve percentage is about 33% which is pretty good at my level. I've gotten my rhythm and timing down finally. For comparison, my serve looks like mark boones except I don't stay open stance.

 

[rkelley]

I'm a 3.5 and I constantly go back to the eastern grip for both my serves, however my second serve has always been one of my weaknesses. I can hit absolute bombs with my first serve, and my opponents really have a hard time returning them. Lately, I would say my first serve percentage is about 33% which is pretty good at my level. I've gotten my rhythm and timing down finally. For comparison, my serve looks like mark boones except I don't stay open stance.

What you say above is exactly why the E. fh grip is not a good choice.

If I'm playing someone that's landing one in three first serves with a weak second to follow-up, in I'll take those odds any day. Even if you're happy with your first serve, the motion that you'll need to develop to hit a decent second serve with some spin is entirely different. It's not just the grip, it's stance, position of the shoulders, and how all of the joints are used, that are different between an E. fh grip serve and continental grip serve.

If you develop a good continental grip serve, you can pound them in just a big, with some spin to pull them down into the box that drastically increases your percentage, and you'll have the correct motion for a good second serve too. If your big bomb isn't working that day, you live off that top/slice second serve.

And when I was playing 3.5 tournaments years ago, my serve was my biggest weapon, not just because I could go big on the first, but because I had a solid second that I could fall back on.

 

[MikeHitsHard93]

What you say above is exactly why the E. fh grip is not a good choice.

If I'm playing someone that's landing one in three first serves with a weak second to follow-up, in I'll take those odds any day. Even if you're happy with your first serve, the motion that you'll need to develop to hit a decent second serve with some spin is entirely different. It's not just the grip, it's stance, position of the shoulders, and how all of the joints are used, that are different between an E. fh grip serve and continental grip serve.

If you develop a good continental grip serve, you can pound them in just a big, with some spin to pull them down into the box that drastically increases your percentage, and you'll have the correct motion for a good second serve too. If your big bomb isn't working that day, you live off that top/slice second serve.

And when I was playing 3.5 tournaments years ago, my serve was my biggest weapon, not just because I could go big on the first, but because I had a solid second that I could fall back on.

Oh yeah I don't doubt anything you're saying for a second! I wish I had a more reliable second serve and it's one of the things keeping me from getting to 4.0 (along with my volleys and overall consistency.)

If I had better weather, I'd be out there right now practicing my serve (damn Michigan weather...)

 

[RoddickAce]

In case anyone missed it, this thread was bumped from 2008...

 

[rkelley]

Oh yeah I don't doubt anything you're saying for a second! I wish I had a more reliable second serve and it's one of the things keeping me from getting to 4.0 (along with my volleys and overall consistency.)

If I had better weather, I'd be out there right now practicing my serve (damn Michigan weather...)

Condolences on the weather. I've lived in CA for a lot of my life and you can play here almost any day of the year. It does definitely make a difference.

 

[Avles]

I use an eastern grip for flat serves and even more eastern for kick serves. I'm a strong 4.5. Not a huge serve, maybe 90-100mph, but I get a very high % of first serves in, hit my spots, and rarely miss a second.

Just to be clear, you mean eastern forehand? Flat serve aside, it's hard for me to imagine why you'd move your grip further toward EFH for a kick serve... how does that help?

 

[keithfival]

Ooops!

Just to be clear, you mean eastern forehand? Flat serve aside, it's hard for me to imagine why you'd move your grip further toward EFH for a kick serve... how does that help?

Sorry guys, I didn't know EFH was different than EBH! I just googled it. I thought eastern just meant the opposite direction from western. I use an eastern backhand grip! I was wondering why ya'll were so surprised but now I see what you mean.

Also, turns out I use eastern forehand on my forehand! (I never went to tennis camp)

 

[HunterST]

No high level server uses an eastern grip.

To flatten a serve, you simply need to hit the ball clean and go through it directly toward the target.

I find it helpful to have a target over the net rather than in the box for a flat serve. a target in the opponent's service box leads to hitting down and missing into the net.

 

[rkelley]

Sorry guys, I didn't know EFH was different than EBH! I just googled it. I thought eastern just meant the opposite direction from western. I use an eastern backhand grip! I was wondering why ya'll were so surprised but now I see what you mean.

Also, turns out I use eastern forehand on my forehand! (I never went to tennis camp)

OK, that makes so much more sense now.

E bh grip is used for high level serves - Edberg used it. You usually see a full E. bh used by folks that like to hit a lot of American twist serves. It's great for twist and top/slice. I don't see a full E. bh used a lot among the pros, but it is used. I actually start with continental and then slight adjust a bit toward E. bh myself (a la Lendl), but in my case my grip is still basically a continental.

Thanks for the clarification.