Etiquette When Winning

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Aurellian, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    That's fine. But the poster I was replying to changed the question from whether one should hit ALL drop shot returns to whether one should hit A drop shot. Those are two very different questions.


    You continue to set up a false choice: if OP doesn't play all drop shot returns, he's taking it easy on the opponent. In fact, though, as indicated by the 5-1 score and the state of OP's game and his NTRP level, the position advocated by many of us ITT (that OP play his normal game) is actually the more difficult style for the opponent.

    Here's a novel thought: how about the OP plays exactly like how he played to get to 5-1? If OP does that, he's off the court in 5 minutes with a 6-1 win. If he starts practicing drop shot returns, he's likely to drop a few into the net, maybe even lose a game or two, and he's on the court for another 15 minutes.

    The "humiliation" of losing isn't the issue. Literally no one ITT has said it would be wrong for the OP to beat the opponent 6-1 by continuing to play his normal game that got him to 5-1.

    Rather the problem folks have is deliberately changing your game when up 5-1 against a clearly inferior player to practice a particular stroke. At that point, the message shifts from "I'm a better player than you because I'm up 5-1" to "You're not worth my effort and so I'm going to play a single low percentage shot because I want you to know it."
     
    #51
  2. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    #52
  3. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    #53
  4. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    The point is he did not, he decided not to.

    Would I do it? No I would not.
    Would it bother me if someone else did it, no it would not, it is his game not my game.

    But apparently some folks here are way too much concerned how other people should play their matches.

    I think etiquette and good manners starts with one's self: lead by example instead of being good at pointing fingers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
    #54
  5. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    The etiquitte thing doesn't even bother me, but what does strike me is this:

    If you haven't had a guy come back from 5-1 down in a set on you, you probably haven't played that much, relatively speaking.

    If you have had a guy come back from 5-1 on you, you likely wouldn't be trying silly experimental shots that will really only serve to make that sort of come back a bit easier.

    If I'm your opponent, I wouldn't be offended if you started trying dropshot returns. You may still be favored to win, but you just gave me more of a chance at a comeback than I would have had otherwise, so idk why I'd be upset. :D
     
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  6. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    So 1 drop shot is ok? How about 2? 3, 4, 8? You see when you start making up rules about how many dropshots are ok, how many are not, at some point you aren't playing tennis anymore. If playing tennis according to the official rules (and not your made up rules) means I am a "serious" tennis player, well that is fine by me. Better than a whiny crybaby.

     
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  7. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    You're missing the point. Or perhaps intentionally failing to acknowledge it.

    Of course you can hit any legal shot, at any time, as many times as you want to. No problem with that, assuming the motivation behind your shot selection is to win the point, or to gain some other tactical or strategic advantage that ultimately helps you win the match (e.g. wearing your opponent down).

    But if you make a shot selection that is actually poor from a tennis point of view, and you're doing it just to "show up" an opponent that you are beating handily, then that is bush.

    An example would be if you're up 6-0, 5-0, and then decide to start playing left-handed (assuming you're right handed). Certainly it's not against the rules, but it's bush and disrespectful to your opponent.
     
    #57
  8. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    It seems some people do not understand the difference between voicing an opinion and blatantly dictating to others what is right or wrong.
     
    #58
  9. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    What's the difference?

    Isn't anything you say by definition your opinion?

    If I say "Adultery is wrong" or I say "In my opinion, adultery is wrong", is there a material difference?
     
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  10. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    I'm not quite sure what your point is. There is an established (or used to be) etiquette in tennis. Hitting excessive drop shots to your opponent is rubbing in the loss and frankly just being a dick.

    It is frankly mind boggling to me that this is even seriously being discussed.
     
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  11. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    ah, so now we have to determine the motivation of the player when he hits a shot, to determine whether that shot is "bush" or not. Do you have put the player on a couch on the court and do psychoanalysis on him, or do you just use your powers of ESP?

    Me, I have this weird thing, where I play according to the rules, and expect my opponent to play according to the rules, and may the better player that day win. no whining, no crying, no worrying about motivations. I know, crazy, right?


     
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  12. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    I have a novel thought for you Velvet, how about you worry about what strokes you choose, and let your opponent worry about what strokes he chooses?

     
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  13. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Got it. So as long people are playing by the rules, you're happy. And no whining.

    Funny; I seem to remember you whining a while back about getting to play less often at state than some others on your team.

    Heh, I didn't realize there was a rule that said everyone had to be played equally.
     
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  14. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    that was ancillary stuff going on OUTSIDE of the court, having NOTHING to do with the rules of play for tennis. We are talking about playing tennis according to rules or according to some made up secret set of etiquette rules that change from day to day.

     
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  15. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    Even you cannot be that obtuse. You pose a question the answer to which should be obvious to anyone who ever played a sport. When people point out to you that obvious answer, you don't want to hear it. Clearly you come on here and post for one of two reasons. Either you simply want other posters to validate what you already believe---and that isn't going to happen---or else you simply crave the momentary attention you get from others when they read and respond to your ludicrous posts. I didn't tell you to do what you want to give you permission; I said it to point out that you will have to do it without the approval of the real tennis players and athletes on here.

    I tried on a couple of occasions to reason with you, but all you are interested in is the sound of your own voice. The only thing bigger than your ego is your basic lack of understanding of how the world works outside your own small existence. So I will make it easy on myself and no longer read any posts you put up. There is no reasoning with a self-deluded individual nor one who cares nothing for the truth. So I won't try again. You are not interested in the truth or other viewpoints. You simply need a stage. And frankly, my time is way too precious to waste it listening to your drivel.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
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  16. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    It depends on how memorable you want to be.

    I was playing mixed, and we were getting smoked. Opposing male was dominating. When I served, he would rip it. I'm not sure I got one of his returns into play.

    Finally, I was serving match point down. I served, he hit a drop shot and started walking to the net to shake hands while I tried to run down the ball.

    Legal? Yes. Classy? No.

    If you are winning easily, why isn't it enough to just win easily?
     
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  17. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    So outside the court you expect there to be considerations made outside of and in addition to the rules, but on the court you think there is nothing beyond the rules? How consistent of you.

    The reality is that whether on or off the court, we are dealing with other people. And trying to embarrass or shame other people when there is no need to be doing it is bush, whether on the court or off it. And it doesn't take a genius or ESP to know when something is being done purely to be hurtful or to show up the other person unnecessarily.
     
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  18. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Unfortunately, some people just don't get classy.

    Perhaps showing people up on the tennis court makes them feel better about themselves and is some form of sad compensation for other deficiencies in their lives.
     
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  19. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    How cool is it to judge people like that? You don't understand their lives, their struggles, their motivations.

    I suppose you must be the reincarnation of perfection who can justifiably sit on the judgement seat.
     
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  20. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    God bless you my friend. Thanks for your advice...happy hitting!!
     
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  21. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    To be honest mam, I truly do seek to perfect the shot; there is no malicious intent on my behalf.

    I don't get to play much and I am so new to the game that I have a limited repertoire--a forehand, a basic bh, and a guerrilla serve. So when I get an opportunity to practice a new shot in a match setting I am excited to take advantage of it.

    I think that the opponent would be excited because he will witness me making tons of errors and will start to win points rapidly.
     
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  22. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    what's wrong with that? I miss the competition from the my college days. I play to win..to dominate my opponent...I enjoy running my own Phy Ops campaign on big hitters and watching them self-destruct if they are weak minded and fragile.

    I don't play like this with women, with kids, or with men when their sons or women are watching, but if it's another dude wanting to play mano a mano then I expect no quarter given and will give none...if the dude tries to drop shot me I will run it down and tap into a corner for victory...over and over and over...it's his job to stop me, not my job to beat him with only my forehand....
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
    #72
  23. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    so, I was checking my phone between students and read this, burst out laughing..

    next student hears this, asks the obvious question so I showed her..

    man, it is such a shame you live so far apart becasue she is desperate to get you on a tennis court and hurt you..

    (she's 17, has a college offer on the table for a DI school in the states)

    I thought you had pretty much reached the very bottom, but this is epic..

    I had not imagined it was even possible to underestimate your ignorance, but how wrong I was...

    come to think of it, I'd quite like to see my 13 y/o son on a court with you too..
     
    #73
  24. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    My friend, I am not sure of much, but I am sure both the young lady in question and your boy would clean my clock...

    All I am saying is that i don't play mind games with kids, women, and men in front of their family.

    with the girl though, I can hit the ball pretty hard, so I am not sure she would be used to the power...she would still win, but I have hit with two pro/tour women before and I can tell they are not used to the power and pace. I smacked it at her straight on a few times and she could not handle the shot....I would never hit the ball hard at a kid though....not in my DNA...
     
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  25. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    So, as an attorney, do you extend professional courtesy to your opposing counsel even when the applicable rules grant you discretion not to? Because your answer to that question will tell me a lot about the person with whom I'm talking.
     
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  26. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    So refusing to extend professiona courtesty is the same as hitting one or a Few dropshots???? The mental contortions one has to go through to justify being a whiny crybaby on the court!s


     
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  27. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Heard about a match between Tom Brown and Whitney Reed once, Brown was injured couldn't move. Whitney dropped shotted him every time, took him out of his misery.
     
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  28. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Blake,

    You are ignoring the most important part of the OP: The winner is winning easily. Is it or is it not OK to whip out the trick shots at that point rather than just playing however you played to get you the 5-1 lead?

    If you hit 200 drop shots to get that lead, keep at it if you want.

    If you hit 200 lobs to get that lead, keep at it if you want.

    But if you played "normally" to get your lead (beating your opponents with pace, placement, spin, fitness or whatever you normally do), it is hugely rude, disrespectful and unnecessary to suddenly begin to toy with your opponent.

    Don't toy with your opponent. Play your normal game, finish feeding them a bagel without drama, and have done with it. That is the classy thing to do.
     
    #78
  29. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    Of course it is OK. YOu do not have to do what your opponent "expects". What your opponent "expects" is IRRELEVENT to playing tennis, so long as you play by the rules.

    A real tennis player, even when he is losing badly, thinks this when he is drop shotted "Wow great shot, I was not expecting that!"

    A whiny crybaby thinks this when he is drop shotted "I was not expecting that! NO FAIR, I was expecting a ball deep in the court, so I was standing way behind the baseline! How DARE he do something I was not expecting! WAHHHHH WAHHHHHHH!"


     
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  30. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    ^^
    "A real tennis player." Lol
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  31. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    as compared to a crybaby whiner! :twisted:

     
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  32. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    You insist on equating what is legal with what is ethical. They are not the same thing. It is legal for a football team that is winning 63-0 with a couple minutes to go in the game to continue to pass in an attempt to score even more points. But it is shows a complete lack of sportsmanship and ethics. All it does is serve to further embarrass and humiliate your opponent---who is already soundly beaten. Such behavior is rude, unsportsmanlike, juvenile, and bush league. It's the equivalent of kicking a man when he is already down and submitting. It serves no purpose other than to further shame your opponent. In the OP scenario, it is legal because there is no real way to legislate who can attempt what shot when.

    Consider this one:

    I get a very short lob and you are standing at the net six feet in front of me. You see me preparing to hit an overhead and you drop your racquet, turn your back to me, step into the alley, and give me the entire court to hit whatever winning shot I wish, conceding the point. It is perfectly LEGAL for me to intentionally hit you in the back of the head as hard as I can to win the point if I choose to do so. If I can hit you hard enough to knock you down, it is fine for me to do so. By your standard, you would have no right to fuss about that either, but simply say, "Wow, you sure have a strong overhead!" I mean, any "real tennis player" would, right? Humiliate every opponent you possibly can---and in six months see how few people are even willing to return your calls for a match.

    Just because you CAN do something, that doesn't mean you SHOULD do something. And as an experienced tennis player, you know that. Refusing to acknowledge the role of ethics and sportsmanship and decency in the game doesn't say much about you as a player, but speaks volumes about you as a human being.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  33. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    so hitting a drop shot is the same as purposely injuring your opponent by hitting an overhead into the back of his head when there are multitudes of other options. The mental gymnastics some go through to rationalize their crying and whining is amazing.


     
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  34. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    I really like storypeddler's response above. It's probably time to agree to disagree since the point is being entirely missed. This "mental gymnastics" clearly has blake on the mat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  35. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Who exactly am I judging? "Some people"... can you judge a person in the abstract?

    You, however, are judging me personally. How cool is that?

    Or perhaps you actually meant it as a compliment - not everyday I get called perfection! Although it is of course true! Thanks!
     
    #85
  36. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Deleted post - was bordering on a personal attack which was not the intent
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
    #86
  37. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Deleted post - was bordering on a personal attack which was not the intent
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  38. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    I get your point, i disagree with it. Hitting a legal shot is perfectly fine. Intentially hurting someone is not fine. Thus, drop shotting someone is perfectly fine at any point in a match.

    Your point is, if I am winning a match, I am not allowed to vary my shot selection, because if I did, I would be playing without following your mythical, everchanging, secret rules of etiquette




     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  39. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    Wait a minute. They aren't MY mythical rules. I am just reading this thread and deciding that I disagree with your view entirely. People have presented better arguments than you have. It doesn't get much simpler than that. :)
     
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  40. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    You didn't answer my question counselor. I asked whether you extend opposing counsel professional courtesy even when the applicable rules give you discretion not to do so.

    Care to answer?
     
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  41. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    I already responded to your question by pointing out how your question set up a false equality between hitting or not hitting legal drop shots and extending professional courtesy in a law practice, thereby pointing out how your question is both nonsensical and irrelevent.

     
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  42. hrstrat57

    hrstrat57 Hall of Fame

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    Yep, well stated and should be the last word......however the ranting will clearly continue...

    ... I see this going over 1000 posts so I am here to post one more time in this very important thread:???:

    This one is going big!
     
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  43. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    ^ You mean 100. This isn't the 'Nadal News' thread.
     
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  44. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    Where did I equate hitting drop shots with extending professional courtesy? Besides not answering my question, Mike, you're making a ton of assumptions here.

    Just answer the question counselor. Do you extend professional courtesy to opposing counsel even when the applicable rules do not require you to do so? This really shouldn't be that tough to answer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  45. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    it isn't tough to answer. Just irrelevent to the discussion being had. so, i choose not to answer the very easy question to answer. :)

    "This really shouldn't be that tough to answer." Seems like you are the one making assumptions.

     
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  46. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    I have to hand it to you, making Aurelian look reasonable in his own thread is quite the feat. Good luck in your GOAT dubs matches.
     
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  47. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    I am "unreasonable" because I think its ok to hit one or more dropshots in a tennis match? And you are reasonable because you believe having a hissy fit because someone dared to hit some dropshot is appropriate! Amazing.


     
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  48. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    My friend, you are sidestepping a couple important caveats regarding this question. No one ever said you shouldn't hit a drop shot. Hit all you want. Hit them as often as you want. The OP asked the question whether it would be considered inappropriate/rude/wrong (impolitic was his adjective of choice) to be leading an opponent 5-1 and choose that time to practice your drop shot.

    Look---you are crushing a clearly outmatched opponent. You haven't been hitting drop shots to get to this point in the match. Now, with your foot on his throat, instead of simply closing out the match, you decide to toy with him for a few minutes before finishing him off. That is exactly how the behavior is perceived regardless of whatever justification you try to mount for it. It looks cheap and unsportsmanlike and amounts to little more than rubbing your opponent's face in it. To pick that moment in the match to start practicing your trick shots can hardly be considered anything but ignorance at best and will probably be interpreted by almost everyone as poor sportsmanship.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
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  49. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    he's prolly a very good attorney...
     
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  50. Velvet Ga el

    Velvet Ga el Rookie

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    At least I know your online persona is an adopted one. Not sure what his excuse is.
     

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