Evert - Pretty Darn Good On Grass

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by tennus, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. tennus

    tennus Rookie

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    Much has been said about Martina Navratilova's grass game. For mine hers was the best of the modern era and as suspected.........checking the head to head stats on grass, Navratilova had a 10-5 advantage over Evert. I thought OK Navratilova was dominant on grass but to my surprise 13 of these 15 matches were 3 setters ! Everyone knows Evert was great on clay but these stats show she was just great. :)
     
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  2. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    No, that shows that Navratilova's grass-court abilities are overrated.
    Navi could win tons of Wimbledon trophies because she played in a clown era.
    Clay-court specialist Evert was her only opponent.

    Don't forget that Evert lost 2-6 1-6 to Graf at Wimbledon 1989.

    Condi
     
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  3. tennus

    tennus Rookie

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    While I don't agree with your clown era comment I do think your stat from 1989 is plain crazy. Evert was finished by 89, at 33 she played only 9 tournaments and won none of them. Graf on the other hand was in her prime..................but I guess you already know that. :)
     
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  4. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    But whom did Chrissy beat in Wimbledon when she won the tournament?
    Morozova (74), 19-year-old fatty Navratilova (76) and Mandlikova (81).

    Seles, Sabatini or Sanchez would have done this, too.

    Condi
     
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  5. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    You don't make it to 10 Wimbledon finals without being a great grass court player. Martina just happened to be a better one.
     
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  6. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Evert was CLEARLY past her prime then and Graf was definitely in her prime so that score is misleading and even though Evert was clearly not playing her best "A game", there were many looooong rallies and lots of duece games in that match. I remember at the time thinking that if Evert could have summoned the resolve to play some of the big points better she would have had more of a chance to make a contest of it but she didn't because by this point the well was dry.

    Also in '76, Evert beat Goolagong, not Navratilova, for the title 8-6 in the third set. Check your facts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
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  7. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Morozova was in her 2nd straight slam final of 1974, having just been in the French Open final. Morozova beat both Billie Jean King and Virgina Wade in back to back matches to make the 1974 Wimbledon final, pretty impressive. I suppose none of that matters to you though.

    Chrissy beat Goolagong in the 1976 Wimbledon final, a 7-time slam winner, a player who won all the sports biggest events except the U.S Open-where she still reached the finals 4 times, a player who was the biggest rival to King and Court in the early 70s, the biggest rival to Evert in the mid 70s. Not to mention a player who won Wimbledon titles 9 years apart; beating Richey, King, and Court, all in a row, all in straight sets, to win in 1971 at only 19, and beating Austin and Evert back to back to win in 1980 at age 28. In addition a player who reached atleast the semis of Wimbledon all 9 times she played it from 1971-1980, and reached the finals of Wimbledon a whopping 5 times(1971, 1972, 1975, 1976, 1980). Hardly an easy opponent.

    Chris beat Mandilikova in 1981? Mandilikova is a much better grass court player then Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, or probably even early 90s Seles, so what is your point here? Do you think Mandilikova was just a clown. She won 4 slam titles at 3 different sites-the 1985 U.S Open by beating Evert and Navratilova back to back(and please dont show your ignorance by downplaying the difficulty of that), the 1987 Australian Open then on rebound ace over Navratilova in the final, the 1981 French Open beating Evert along the way, and another Australian Open title. Mandilikova beat Navratilova in the 1981 Wimbledon semis to make the final, and beat Evert in the 1986 Wimbledon semis to make the final, she simply couldnt quite do the double kill either time. She also reached the 1980 U.S Open final by beating Navratilova and then teen phenom Jaeger(before losing to Evert), and the 1982 U.S Open final beating Shriver who had just herself beaten Navratilova the previous round.

    Mandilikova and Goolagong in fact are regarded by many players as 2 of the most gifted young women to ever pick up a raquet, who if they had stronger work ethic, better focus, were able to harness and utilize their talents properly, could have been 2 of the greatest ever. As it was they are looked on as underachievers but still compiled extremely impressive careers, and all the greatest players-Court, King, Navratilova, Evert, were wary of what they were capable of doing on any given day.

    Also if you really think it is a cinch that Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, and even perhaps early 90s Seles would have automaticaly beaten Goolagong or Mandilikova in a Wimbledon final you really know squat about those players.

    Graf is a great player, those of us who dont think she is the best ever arent going to be converted by your ignorant and ill-informed putdowns of all the other greats and reference to any era other then the Graf era as a "clown" era. You really are starting to become pathetic.
     
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  8. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Don't forget Evert was a 34 year old women retiring at seasons end. I wonder what would have happened to Graf is she played Wimbledon as a 32 year old in 2002, or as a 33 year old in 2003, and played Serena Williams in her prime. Ouch! Of course in that case you would have just said "she was 32 and 33 years old". :p

    Of course speaking of a clown era what does it say about Graf's 2 most dominant years that her toughest competition was 30-something women:

    1988 slams:

    Australian Open-beat 33 year old Chris Evert in the final
    French Open-beat 1-time ever slam finalist Natasha Zvereva in the final
    Wimbledon-beat 31 year old Martina Navratilova in the final
    U.S Open-beat Gabriela Sabatini in the final

    1989 slams:

    Australian Open-beat 0-time slam winner Helena Sukova in the final
    Wimbledon-beat 32 year old Martina Navratilova in the final
    U.S Open-beat 32 year old Martina Navratilova in the final

    Yet Evert beating Goolagong or Mandilikova to win 2 of her 3 Wimbledons, while losing to Navratilova in finals is taking advantage of a clown era. ROTFL!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
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  9. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Please don't confuse Condi with facts.

    Evert was good, no great, on any surface she played on. She was a cerbral player while Navratilova was a physical player. They were perfect foils for one another and had probably the greatest rivalry women's tennis has ever seen. Evert had wins over King on grass which is no small feat.

    Evert's clay court record will probably be unequaled. Her wins at the French and winning percentage on clay stands head and shoulders above the rest of the field. In my view, Evert was a great champion and a great competitor. She claims she was not an athlete and by Navratilova's standards, that's probably true. However, Evert couldn't have accomplished what she did without being a great athlete in her own right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
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  10. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    So Evert didn't beat Navi in a Wimbledon final even once, Chrissiefan?
    Only Morozova, Goolagong and Mandlikova??

    Condi
     
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  11. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Yeah ... also interesting that in the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until one of the jealous Graf fans decided to plant a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles on a changeover in Germany, the head-to-head records vs. Steffi Graf for both Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles had Graf losing to both of these players -- and Navratilova was in her 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st years on the tour in those years.
     
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  12. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Seems that Navratilova was the only player to reach the final round of Wimbledon in the years 1985-1990.

    Seems that Navratilova won Wimbledon in 1987 and 1990 and beat the player who had beaten Graf in the semis to win the 1990 singles title.

    Seems that Navratilova was the only player in the Open Era to win Wimbledon 6 consecutive years (Graf never even was able to reach more than 3 consecutive finals at Wimbledon).

    Seems that Navratilova was the only player in the Open Era to reach 9 consecutive Wimbledon finals (again, Graf managed to get to Wimbledon finals in 3 consecutive years).

    Seems that Navratilova was the only player in the Open Era to reach the quarters or better at Wimbledon in a record 20 consecutive years (twice as many years as Graf).

    There should be no question to any intelligent observer that Martina Navratilova is the best women's grass court player of the last 70 years.

    There is nothing I can do for those that are less intelligent.
     
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  13. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    If, if ....
    If Graf had had Henin's topspin backhand she would have been unbeatable.

    Mandlikova?
    I only remember how Graf owned her.
    Steffi beat her the first time at Hilton Head Island 1986 with 6-2 6-4 when she was only 16 years old, lost to her a few months later - while having a severe cold - in the FO 86 quarters (3 sets).
    In 1987 Graf beat her 6-3 6-4, 6-4 6-1, 6-2 6-2.
    In 1988 6-2 6-2.
    In 1989 7-6 6-3, 6-3 6-4, 6-0 6-1.

    So in 9 matches against a 16-20-year-old Graf a 24-27 years old Mandlikova won 1 match and 2 of 19 sets.

    Hana was the main opponent of Evert & Navratilova in the 80ies, no?
    A nice proof of how pathetic the opposition was before Graf came up in 1986/87.

    Same with Shriver, the other main opponent of Chris and Martina.
    Graf destroyed her twice in Wimbledon (6-0 6-2 and 6-2 6-1) when Pam was 25/26 years old.

    Evert and Navratilova really dodged a bullet in the 80ies. If Graf had been born 5 or 10 years earlier Chris and Martina would have been stuck with 10 slams maximum ...


    Condi
     
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  14. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Graf was tied with Navi (9-9) and lead Seles (6-4) ....
    Was 3-2 against #1 Seles pre-stabbing. In the same time 4-8 against Sabatini.

    IMO, Seles would not have won even ONE match against Graf if Steffi had been in peak 88/89 form. She simply was too strong for Monica who didn't have the means to trouble Graf.


    Condi
     
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  15. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Grass and indoors --- Navratilova.
    Clay and slow hardcourts -- Evert.

    Phenomenal domination for a 3 year period --- Navratilova.
    Phenomenal consistence for a 14 year period -- Evert.

    If there was a player who took their strengths and got rid of their weaknesses, she would be the greatest player of all time.

    What a great era that was for women's tennis having 2 opposite all-time greats battling it out who were so opposite of each other as Evert and Navratilova were.
     
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  16. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    You can say Navratilova was the all-time greatest champion in women's history in singles at Wimbledon ... and when it comes to grass court tennis in their lifetimes, that is probably the best singles measure of grass court supremacy -- and all-time record 9 for Navratilova.

    Chris was the greatest on slow surfaces ..

    Martina was greatest on fast surfaces ..

    but Steffi was great on ALL surfaces as long as Monica Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a Graf fan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
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  17. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    No, Evert (85), Mandlikova (86) and Graf (87, 88, 89) did it, too.

    In 1987 Graf obviously was still maturing, didn't have a lot of grass court experience (hadn't played in Wimbledon the year before).
    But in 1988 and 1989 she virtually destroyed Navratilova.
    Especially the 1988 match was awesome. Graf broke Navratilova in her last 7 service games, hit 25 clean return winners. Martina was simply overwhelmed.

    Navratilova and Seles were Graf's easiest Wimbledon finals victims.
    Both players are vastly overrated, IMO, especially Seles of course (a Sanchez, Austin, Hingis type of player - nothing else).

    Condi
     
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  18. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    As long as a Graf fan had a knife deep into the back of Monica Seles.
     
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  19. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Funny how Steffi started winning those non-Wimbledon majors that Seles had owned for those previous years after Seles had been stabbed.
     
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  20. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    What was Navi's best 3-year period?
    Obviously 1982-84 when she won 8 slams.
    But Graf did the same in 1987-89 - and won the Golden Grand Slam.
    So Graf gets the nod.

    Evert won 18 slams in 1974-1986. Nice consistence.
    But Graf won 22 slams in 1987-99. More.
    So Graf gets the nod here as well.

    No, Graf was simply superior to Evert and Navratilova.
    Golden Grand Slam.
    Most slams in open era.
    Each slam won at least 4 times.
    Each of the blue-chip slams (FO, Wim, USO) won at least 5 times.
    Most weeks as #1.
    Most consecutive weeks as #1.
    Most years as year-end #1.
    Most money earned.
    Highest slam-match winning percentage.

    We should discuss whether Court, Evert or Navratilova is #2 in the GOAT race. On the #1 Graf has a lock ...


    Condi
     
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  21. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Steffi just could not beat Seles at a major event other than Wimbledon during those years.
     
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  22. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Graf has a higher match winning percentage in Wimbledon than Navratilova.
    Had Graf been lesbian and therefore not decided to start a family in 1999 but played on until age 38 (as Navratilova did) she undoubtly would have won at least 3 additional Wimbledon singles titles.

    Condi
     
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  23. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Seles already had a knife in her back during the 1992 Wimbledon final?
    Also half an inch deep?

    Wow ....



    Condi
     
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  24. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Navratilova won an all-time record 9 Wimbledon singles titles without a knife in the back of Evert or Graf.

    Navratilova won an all-time record 8 WTA Tour Championships without a knife in the back of Evert or Graf.

    Navratilova won an all-time record 167 WTA Tour singles titles without a knife in the back of Evert or Graf.

    Navratilova won a record 6 Wimbledon singles titles -- she got to the final round of Wimbledon in 9 consecutive years vs. 3 years in a row for Graf -- she got to the quarters or better in 20 consecutive Wimbledons vs. 10 years in a row for Graf.

    Navratilova had a tremendous career with some all-time records at some of the biggest events in the world and in both singles and doubles -- and she accomplished these without a knife in the back of Evert or Graf.
     
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  25. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Ah, those years.

    Seles never ever beat Graf on

    a) grass
    b) indoors
    c) fast HC

    Only on slow courts.
    Graf beat Seles on all surfaces, though.

    I'm trying to visualize how Seles could have beaten Graf at USO. Doesn't work. Monica simply didn't have the means to threaten Graf there.


    Condi
     
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  26. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Just as she is now -- even though the stabbing of the true #1 of that era in the back with a knife by one of her fans certainly doesn't help her case any.
     
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  27. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Graf won her 22 slams, too, without Navratilova, Seles, Evert, Hingis or Sanchez having a knife in their backs.

    Seles, though, won 6 of her 9 slams with Graf either not playing or being distracted big-time by a nasty family scandal that took all motivation away.
    Her FO and AO 93 wins against Graf however were legit. Well, slower surfaces where Monica had her chances against Steffi (comparable to Coetzer).

    BTW, Coetzer - Graf has an eerily similar H2H against her and Seles (vs. Coetzer 11-4, vs. Seles 10-5) ......


    Condi
     
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  28. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Where were their biggest matches? Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships.

    Navratilova had the winning edge vs. Graf at Grand Slam events ... Navratilova also had the winning edge vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships.

    Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf where it counted most -- the biggest events in the world.


    Well, let's COUNT them then:

    GRAND SLAM EVENTS

    First, we will start with the Grand Slam events --- let's limit the results to the Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon and U.S. Open Championships --- since these actually are the Grand Slam events:

    1985-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 6-2 6-3
    1986-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 6-1 6-7 7-6
    1987-05-25 French Open Clay F Steffi Graf won 6-4 4-6 8-6
    1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Navratilova won 7-5 6-3
    1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Navratilova won 7-6 6-1
    1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf won 5-7 6-2 6-1
    1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf won 6-2 6-7 6-1
    1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf won 3-6 7-5 6-1
    1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 7-6 6-7 6-4

    Not only a winning record for Navratilova vs. Graf in the Grand Slam events ... Navratilova won their only matches at the Grand Slam events that were won in straight sets ... 3 of Navratilova's 5 match wins vs. Graf in Grand Slam events were won in straight sets ... Graf never beat Navratilova in straight sets in a Grand Slam event --- but then, Graf only won 4 matches against Navratilova in Grand Slam events to begin with.


    TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS

    Next, we will look at the Tour Championships --- let's limit the results to the singles since Steffi Graf did not play doubles -- even with Gunther Parche.

    1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships SF Navratilova won 6-2 6-2
    1986-11-17 Virginia Slims Championships F Navratilova won 7-6 6-3 6-2
    1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships F Steffi Graf won 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2

    Not only a winning record for Navratilova vs. Graf in the Tour Championships ... Navratilova won their only matches at the Tour Championships that were won in straight sets ... both of Navratilova's 2 match wins vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships were won in straight sets ... Graf never beat Navratilova in straight sets the WTA Tour Championships --- but then, Graf only won 1 match against Navratilova at the WTA Tour Championships to begin with.
     
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  29. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    You mean Seles was 16, 17, 18 and 19 --- and Graf was 20, 21, 22 and 23 --- when Seles was the CLEAR #1 player in women's tennis in those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993?

    CLEAR ??

    Sure. CLEAR.

    This clear:

    ---- MONICA SELES----------------STEFFI GRAF

    1990 Tour Championships
    1991 Australian Open
    1991 French Open
    ----------------------------------- 1991 Wimbledon
    1991 U.S. Open
    1991 Tour Championships
    1992 Australian Open
    1992 French Open
    ----------------------------------- 1992 Wimbledon
    1992 U.S. Open
    1992 Tour Championships
    1993 Australian Open

    April 30 - Germany stabbing
     
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  30. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Making it to 10 Wimbledon finals and winning 3 of them makes Chris Evert a great grass court player. Martina Navratilova just happened to be a better one. Evert did in fact beat Martina at Wimbledon in the 1980 semis when Martina was the two time defending champion and some of their finals were hard fought 3 setters. As a matter of fact the last time they played each other at Wimbledon was another 3 setter in the semis in 1988 with Martina barely winning 6-1, 4-6, 7-5. You all remember that questionable line call on match point?? Chris also beat Martina at the AO final in 1982 6-3, 2-6, 6-3 ON GRASS. Not too shabby for someone who is generally regarded as a clay court specialist, which she was not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
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  31. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Graf ..... was ..... older ..... than ..... Seles .... just ..... as ...... Navratilova ..... was ..... older ..... than ..... Graf ..... and ..... Graf ..... never ..... had ..... a ..... winning ..... record ..... vs. ..... Navratilova.

    Both ..... a ..... teenage ..... Seles ..... and ...... a ..... mid ...... 30s ..... Navratilova ..... had ..... winning ..... records ..... vs. ..... Graf ..... in ..... the ..... time ...... span ...... of ..... 1990 ..... through ..... 1993.
     
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  32. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    16?

    Seles was 17 years and 2 months old when she became #1 for the first time. She lost the top spot twice during summer 1991, which saw a tight fight between her, Graf and Sabatini for #1.
    She secured the #1 spot with her USO 91 win in September when she was 17 years and 9 months old.

    Seles held the #1 ranking until the stabbing in spring 1993 - just 1.5 years.
    Her lead was never more than 58 points (end of 1991), most of the time only in the 25-40-points range. Just before the stabbing Graf had narrowed Seles's lead to a mere 21 points.

    At the end of 1989 and again at the end of 1993 Graf had leads of about 130 points ahead of the #2 player. THAT is a clear #1.

    As a matter of fact the years 1991/92 saw the closest lead a #1 player ever had in professional tennis.



    Condi
     
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  33. CEvertFan

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    #33
  34. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    OK, you sound reasonable.
    Evert was perhaps the 3rd-best grass courter of the last quarter of the 20th century. Maybe only 4th (behind Sanchez) ...


    Condi
     
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  35. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Graf doesn't have a losing record against any major opponent.

    Seles however has losing records against

    a) Graf
    b) Hingis
    c) Davenport
    d) V. Williams
    e) S. Williams

    Condi
     
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  36. CEvertFan

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    I love Arantxa but how many Wimbledons does she have?? I thought so...
     
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  37. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Well, she played during the Graf era.
    Without her she would have 2 Wimbledons (1995 & 96).

    Evert never would have been able to beat a Graf in a Wimbledon final.
    Sanchez at least came close once (1995) ....


    Condi
     
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  38. CEvertFan

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    Well if you are going to argue semantics then I guess if Martina hadn't been playing then Chris would have won Wimbledon in '78, '79, '82, '84 and '85 which are all the years they squared off in the finals. The fact is though that Arantxa, although a great player, has NO Wimbledons and Chrissie has 3. Also Evert has 2 AOs on grass as well, including one over Martina.
     
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  39. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Well, maybe Evert is Wimbledon #3 after all.

    I remember Chris only from her 8 losses in a row against Graf in 86-89 (when I was very young - Graf seemed to be so superior!). Maye I'm underestimating her because of that.


    Condi
     
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  40. CEvertFan

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    You are. It was a case of Chris being on her way out and Graf coming into her own. They never played one another while at their peaks. Too much of an age difference as Evert was already into her 30s by that time.
     
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  41. federerfanatic

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    Well to be fair it would be wrong to assume the final loser always would have won the final. There are probably some cases the semifinal, or even in rare cases quarterfinal loser, likely on the eventual winners half, maybe would have won a particular event.

    1978-Does Evert win this year? Without Navratilova she would have probably played Goolagong in the final, who lost to Navratilova in 3 sets in the other semi. Evert has a decisive losing head to head with Evonne on grass, I believe her only ever win was in the 1976 Wimbledon final, 8-6 in the 3rd. I am not sure she wins it over Goolagong.

    1979-Does Evert win this year? Without Navratilova she would probably have played Austin in the final, who lost to Navratilova in the other semi. Austin had a decisive edge over Evert from 1979-1981 in head to head, but grass was also her worst surface. This one is a tough call too.

    1982-Yes almost certainly Evert win this year without Navratilova.

    1984-Yes almost certainly again Evert wins this year without Navratilova, she spanked Mandilikova, by far the next biggest contender in the semis after all.

    1985-Yes she almost certainly wins this one too without Navratilova.

    So it may have been only 6 or 7 without Navratilova, not neccessarily 8.
     
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  42. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    That is true. Graf and Evert never played each other in their mutual primes. Evert had all 6 of her wins over Graf from 1985-before when Evert was in her prime and Graf was not. Graf won all 8 of their matches from 1986-beyond when Evert was starting her decline and Graf was coming into her prime. So nothing to tell either way from their head to head, no advantage to Evert apparent, no advantage to Graf apparent. All complete speculation as far as head to head matchup goes.

    That is unlike the Navratilova-Graf head to head though where even an aging Navratilova managed her share of wins over prime Graf, and took sets off her virtualy every meeting.
     
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  43. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Who cares whether if Graf had one of the greatest backhands of the open era, instead of her wobbly little pokey slice for a backhand, she would have been unbeatable or not. She didnt end of story.

    So that is your simplistic analogy for her the quality of her as a player? Again showing your ignorance, and lack of knowledge of virtualy any players outside your beloved Graf and her absolute contemporaries.

    If you had actually watched tennis during the Graf-Navratilova era and seen Hana play you would you realize how ridiculous this sounds.

    I agree here though. Pam wasnt that strong for a top 5 player. The 80s did not have the depth beyond the first 3 of the 70s. Do keep in mind Evert was the dominant player of alot of the 70s though, in the much deeper field that existed then compared to the 80s, and Navratilova proved herself generaly superior to the great Evert still in her prime in the first half of the 80s. That pretty much validates what either are capable of in a deeper field then the 80s one was. That plus with two all time greats like Evert and Navratilova, and a second tier great like Mandilikova at the very top, it ensured a very high level of competition, even if it lacked the depth and quality in the players ranked 4-10. Certainly that was still more competition then Graf had outside the period when Seles dominated her and the tour, an aging Navratilova, Evert, and Sabatini her 3 main rivals before that; then Sanchez Vicario as her #1 rival post-Seles stabbing.

    Is that why when Graf and Navratilova were both relatively close to the end or start of their primes(as close as they would be to an equal confrontation)
    Navratilova went 3-1 vs Seles in slam meetings in 86-87, Graf only winning a tough 3 set French Open final on Navratilova's worst surface(the same way she needed grass to beat Seles in her prime, maybe she would have needed clay for Navratilova), and got walloped in the 87 Wimbledon and U.S Open finals? Is that why when Graf was still in her prime, and Navratilova was advancing into her 30s from 88-89, Navratilova still got the occasional win, and although she usually lost Navratilova almost always took a set off Graf?

    Navratilova at her absolute peak became so scary for a stretch there was a period she was killing Chris Evert even. She won 2 slam straight slam finals vs Evert by scores of 6-3, 6-1. The 83 U.S Open final on hard courts, and the 84 French Open final on clay. There was a stretch during that time she won about 5 matches in a row by scores like that. So Navratilova at the absolute peak of her career in 83-84 was doing that to a fellow all time great like Evert in her prime. Graf by contract at the absolute peak of her career in 88-89 was taking 3 sets always to beat a 31 and 32 year old all time great like Navratilova in a bunch of slam finals. Graf in the second highest absolute peak of her career in 95-96 was taking 3 sets to beat Sanchez Vicario in almost all their slam finals.
     
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  44. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Evert d. Goolagong 1979 Wimbledon semis 6-3, 6-2. There are probably a few more wins as well in smaller tournaments and I will have to do some research to see if there are any more Evert wins against Goolagong on grass. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
    #44
  45. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Ok thanks, I did not remember that match. That brings their Wimbledon history even closer then I was aware of then, in fact it pretty much makes it tie at Wimbledon. Goolagong did come back to beat Evert in the 1980 Wimbledon final in straight sets( a big upset at the time since Goolagong was written off a potential slam winner by then, despite still being ranked quite high). Evert beat her in an amazing match in the 1976 final, and Goolagong won a tough 3 setter in the 72 semis.

    I recall Goolagong beating Evert in their only meetings on grass at the Australian Open, and the U.S Open. So I thought that made their head to head at the 3 slams played on grass 4-1, but with this win you pointed out that makes it 4-2 overall. I am not sure of any meetings in smaller events on grass between the two. I do remember when watching old footage of the incredible 1976 Wimbledon final which Evert won over Goolagong(I was only born in 1979 so matches that far back I watch from tapes only)the commentator saying in the midst of that match Evert had lost all 3 of her career meetings with Goolagong on grass, which must have been their 3 slam meetings and no others at that point in time. Goolagong did not play Evert on grass again any of 1976, and barely played in 1977(and certainly did not play Evert in 1977)so any other meetings on grass would have had to be smaller events upon Goolagong's final return to tour from 1978-onward.
     
    #45
  46. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    So it would be 4-2 Goolagong on grass but 23-13 total for Evert. Definitely an interesting rivalry.
     
    #46
  47. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Actually I quite underestimated Evert's success vs Goolagong on grass. Their head to head on grass was an even 4-4.

    1972 Wimbledon semis: Goolagong won 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
    1974 Australian Open final: Goolagong won 7-6, 4-6, 6-0
    1974 U.S Open semis: Goolagong won 6-0, 6-7, 3-6
    1976 Wimbledon final: Evert won 6-3, 4-6, 8-6
    1979 Wimbledon semis: Evert won 6-3, 6-2
    1980 Chichester final: Evert won 6-3, 6-7, 7-5
    1980 Wimbledon final: Goolagong won 7-6, 6-1
    1981 Sydney quarters: Evert won 6-2, 6-0

    The matches I did not know about was the semis of the 1979, and those 2 late career(for Goolagong)meetings in Chichester and Sydney.

    So Evert won 4 of their final 5 matches on grass, yet lost that Wimbledon final by a convincing score in between those. Interesting indeed. With Evonne you never knew though, she and Hana were similar in that regard.

    Evert having a 4-4 head to head with Goolagong on grass is very impressive though. Goolagong was a tough customer for anyone on grass.
     
    #47
  48. federerfanatic

    federerfanatic Banned

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    Yeah their rivalry was definitely an interesting one.
     
    #48
  49. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Wow thanks for posting that. Nice to finally see the numbers and see how well Evert handled Goolagong on grass as most of their rivalry was before I got into tennis as well. Evonne was one of those players with tons of sublime natural talent who could on any given day beat anyone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
    #49
  50. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Evert was #1 still in November 1985. She won the FO 86 in convincing fashion against Navratilova and said herself that she never had been better than in those months of 1985/86.
    Nevertheless Chris had her first loss to Graf in Hilton Head Island in April 1986 (clay, 2-setter) and never won another match (7 losses in the next 3 years with only 1 set won).

    But is it a well-known miracle that all great players (Navi, Evert, Shriver, Mandlikova, Sabatini, Hingis, Venus, Seles) were either still maturing or already over-the-hill when they started their strings of losses against Steffi .... :D :D



    Condi
     
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