Expensive multis vs cheap NG and other alternatives

Discussion in 'Strings' started by ac3111, Oct 25, 2009.

  1. ac3111

    ac3111 Professional

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    Since last April I was playing with Babolat Tonic 16g gut.
    Now I am trying Rip Control 16 and K GutPro 17. Already placed an order for some polys but I want to try a few more multis before I come to any conclusion.
    Checked some very well known multis like the X-1 B phase and Babolat Xcel premium and power.
    The X-one B phase in terms of price is very close to the Tonic 16 and I was wondering why someone would buy an expensive multi and not go the Tonic route even if Tonic is lower quality natural gut...

    So I did some research and narrowed my choices to the following multis that would combine power, control and maintenance..
    1. Weisscannon Explosiv 1.30
    2. Klip Venom 17
    3. Topspin Cyberblue 1.24

    The racquets to be strung with are PS 6.0 95 16x18, K 6.1. 95 18x20, AG 4D 300 Tour, Liquidmetal Radical MP, and maybe Pure Storm LTD GT...
    For the latter I am considering Tonic 16...

    I know Topspin Cyberblue or Weisscannon Explosiv or Klip Venom 17 can not substitute or reproduce the feel or power of Tonic strung at the same tension but are they good choices for their price compared to the expensive multis of Babolat and Tecnifibre?
     
    #1
  2. slow_duster

    slow_duster Rookie

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    Please let me know what you think of the Rip control 16. I am looking for string with good spin, low power, and softer on my elbow than Prince syn gut (duraflex) at same tensions. Thanks
     
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  3. ac3111

    ac3111 Professional

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    I like more the combination of Rip Control+PS 6.0 95 16x18 than the KGutPro 17+K 6.1 95 18x20...
    The RipControl 16 although thicker I think it gives more spin. Both racquets are strung at the same tension. Control seems to be on the side of KGutPro 17 but Pro Staff 6.0 95 is more comfortable and powerful I think than the K 6.1. 95.
    The KGutPro 17 feels a bit springy... it may be that new Wilson Pro Feel Plus vibration dampener... I think it is more for decoration...
     
    #3
  4. aggfan

    aggfan New User

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    I'm thinking of chosing one of the below for my Dunlop 4d 200 (18x20). Any feedback is appreciated.

    Kgut 17: Really liked it, but it's a bit expensive. I'll love to have something similar to kgut but little cheaper. I loved the control and ball gripping of kgut and the string doesn't move much.

    X-1 biphase: Prefer the Kgut over x-1

    Head Rip Control 17L : Just got it strung on one of my racquets. Need to test it out.

    Tech NRG2 17 or Gamma Live Wire Xp 17: Which one these I should demo first.

    I'm looking for a string that has the max control and great ball gripping for a multi (don't wanna go with the Polys). Or maybe something similar to kgut but little cheap.
     
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  5. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Hmmm...sounds to me like you're describing a poly. :wink:

    Why don't you want to go with polys? The characteristics of K-Gut that you describe that you like are common amongst polys, and almost all polys are cheaper than K-Gut. The only strings that I have ever tried that play similar to K-Gut have all been polys.
     
    #5
  6. aggfan

    aggfan New User

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    Kgut plays better for me than polys. It doesn't losses tension much has better power and is better for my arm.

    I know you had issues with Kgut, but for me it's more comfortable than any poly.
     
    #6
  7. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Have you also tried K-Gut Pro?
     
    #7
  8. aggfan

    aggfan New User

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    Nope, haven't tried the kgut pro. But it's the same price as kgut.
     
    #8
  9. ClubHoUno

    ClubHoUno Banned

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    I have tried both [K] Gut and [K] Gut Pro, and I know how you feel about them, especially the Pro.

    But to be honest, I did NOT feel quite the same way about them, once I did find my preferred tension for them. I found they both played stiff at high tension, but I normally string multis at high tension, but they still did NOT feel like poly, more like a soft new generation CoPoly and at 4 lbs lower tension they started to feel like a real multi, especially the [K] Gut NON PRO.
    I agree that playing better at low tension sounds very poly like, and maybe Wilson made this multi for avid poly users/fans, who wanted something better feeling. Maybe Wilson just didn't test it enough or got some weird feedback on it from all the volunteer testers.

    I still think It's an OK string, but prefer the NXT TOUR - but I've never been a Wilson string fan, and since I found out they got most of their high techstrings from Babolat and Tecnifibre, I just dumped Wilson as a brand altogether.

    Used to be a complete Wilson HO in the 90's - Wilson racquets, wilson bag, wilson overgrip, wilson leather grip, wilson dampener, wilson strings, wilson balls etc.

    Not so anymore. Next year, I will have NOTHING from Wilson in my bag and my bags will be from Babolat and Head.

    But still will not agree that [K] Gut and [K] Gut Pro plays like a poly and hurts your arm like a stiff poly - but I agree that It's not the softest multi out there, and It's most definitely NOT the best multi out there for my game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2009
    #9
  10. armsty

    armsty Hall of Fame

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    How does Gaucho Natural Gut compare to NXT, KGut, X-1 BiPhase, Multifeel, etc.?
     
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  11. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    ALL polys hurt my arm, even the softest ones you can think of, like SPPP, ProLine II, Luxilon M2 Pro, etc. So that's why I find K-Gut Pro to feel as stiff as a poly, because even if it's no stiffer than a soft poly, that's still too stiff for me, so for me, it might as well BE a poly. I got TE from using K-Gut Pro because I continued to use it for two weeks even though I would cut out even the softest of polys in only 10 minutes. And I only kept using it because I thought K-Gut Pro was supposed to be a arm-friendly, high-end multi which shouldn't damage my arm. Boy, was I wrong! :(

    BTW, yes, K-Gut is not as stiff as K-Gut Pro, but both are stiffer than any other multis I have ever used.
     
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  12. armsty

    armsty Hall of Fame

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    Does it actually feel stiff or just cause arm pain?
     
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  13. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Both. It even behaves like a poly when you string it, i.e., on a drop weight stringer, the weight doesn't drop at all so there's no resiliency in K-Gut and K-Gut Pro, just like with polys. K-Gut Pro feels and plays as stiff as any poly I've ever tried. It also doesn't move very much in the stringbed, just like a poly.
     
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  14. raygo

    raygo Semi-Pro

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    I just tried TF Promix and it's hard to believe it's a poly. Pliable as a multi, more feel than M2 but not as much as a 'true' multi. I think I'm in love. :)
     
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  15. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    Neither K-Gut nor K-Gut Pro have caused any arm problems for anyone that I am aware of. Instead, most experiences correspond pretty much to those for multis with comparable string data, within the multi subset. This is confirmed by feedback information on this site for K-Gut and K-Gut Pro as well as the comments and ratings provided by the USRSA's 25-30 randomly-selected playtesters, in each case, here:

    http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2009/01/1600_wilson_k_gut_pro_16.html

    http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2008/03/wilson_k_gut_16.html

    BP, even though you've been previously shown and made aware of how unique your K-Gut experience is to you, you persist in over-representing yourself, requiring us each time to offer alternative reviews in order to balance it. No one so far has agreed that K-Gut has caused their arm troubles, as you insist they have, for example. How about showing an awareness of where K-Gut opinion truly stands, and where you stand out then, from now on? Label your view as selfishly brought in, and we won't have to begin doing it for you then.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
    #15
  16. Richie Rich

    Richie Rich Legend

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    it is a unique string. i enjoyed hitting with it a few years ago. under the radar for sure as it's been around a long time. i'm not even sure if TF still makes promix, do they?
     
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  17. Richie Rich

    Richie Rich Legend

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    while BP may a bit enthusiastic in his dislike of k-gut his point of view is good to have out there. his experience with the string may be a unique one and not fit in with the standard reviews but each persons experience is different. even if he is the only one with arm issues with k-gut/pro it might be of benefit to someone reading this.
     
    #17
  18. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    So what do you use now?
     
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  19. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    TF Promix doesn't get much attention, but its a very soft poly in the same vein as "Sonic Pro" or "Cyber Blue".
     
    #19
  20. meowmix

    meowmix Hall of Fame

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    The feel of natural gut is unique... No multi can really compare. There are some that can come close, but the feel of gut is unique. IMO, even cheap gut (like global) will play better than than more expensive multis.
     
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  21. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yet, you keep ignoring everyone here that keep saying that K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are STIFF and have caused them arm/shoulder problems. No, I'm NOT the only one that feels this way about these strings. :-?


     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
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  22. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Back to Prince Syn Gut Multifiliment and Gosen OG Sheep Micro. Also using Wilson Hollow Core.
     
    #22
  23. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    You do this each time, don't you? The issue isn't, it cannot be, whether one disapproves of K-Gut Pro AT ALL. Nor is it about whether anyone else can call it STIFF. It's about whether doing either of those automatically says they can agree with the claim that K-Gut Pro *causes* TE. No, it doesn't. In fact, you yourself admit that you've never sought to determine what else could have caused your TE, seen a doctor to confirm your condition and its cause, and so on.

    By the way, ignoring the feedback section, the USRSA playtesters, and yes, even the TT search function--and you ALWAYS do it--shows how little you're influenced by what people in here and elsewhere ACTUALLY think about the string, except as they can be made to appear in agreement with what you hold to.

    Not even all of the eight you cite agree that the string is even stiff, what they do in fact complain of can be marked down as mere discomfort that could be improved on, and more than one suspects their selected tension is the true culprit.

    By the way, stop discouraging anyone you agree with from *reading*, too, would you? It's unseemly, rude even.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
    #23
  24. raygo

    raygo Semi-Pro

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    It's still on their website, but since it's a few years old already it might be put to pasture soon--why does this happen to everything I like? I just found this string!

    Looks like it might be time stock up...grr. :mad:

    I was curious about Sonic Pro since it's another multi-poly, haven't tried CB, either. The shops here only sell the big brands, so I'm curious about all the 'sleeper' strings out there. Might have to switch if ProMix is indeed finished.
     
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  25. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    It might, if his were sincere or factual and not just self-promotion. He is no mere iconoclast; he thinks you shouldn't read or think about strings, just feel them. What's more, he plainly believes those who can't agree with his view are being prevented from it by reading they do, as well as when sinews and nerves are corrupted from association with lesser choices than his, which then mislead them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
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  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Um..I don't use the TT search function? How do you think I found all of those quotes?

    I know a heck of a lot about tennis elbow because I had it 7 years ago, so I know EXACTLY what caused the tennis elbow, NO ands, ifs, or buts. I've done extensive research on tennis elbow and know the difference between a stiff string and a soft one since I've been hitting with tons of different strings over the past 35 years. I also know what causes tennis elbow. Heck, I probably know more about tennis elbow at this point than most doctors do!

    YES, I KNOW that K-Gut Pro caused my tennis elbow. There is NO DOUBT in my mind! I have been extremely careful in doing everything I can to avoid tennis elbow over the past 7 years, EXCEPT trying K-Gut Pro. I could feel the harshness and stiffness as soon as I hit the first ball. Much harsher and stiffer than even plain full OG Sheep Micro.

    Oh, and did you miss the quote where someone said that they could use another multi for 30 days in a row without any pain but tried K-Gut Pro and his arm was in pain for days?

    Let me ask you this: Have you ever strung K-Gut Pro on a drop weight machine? If so, did the weight drop at all when you released it? Now, feel may be subjective, but whether a weight drops is not! Are you saying that I imagined the weight not dropping at all just like when I string a poly? I started stringing on a drop weight machine well over 30 years ago. I think I know when the weight drops and when it doesn't budge even a millimeter. Even with OG Sheep Micro, its resiliency will cause the weight to drop by maybe 10-12 inches. Sometimes I have to even ratchet the weight a second time and drop again to stretch the string some more. With K-Gut Pro, the drop was ZERO! The string has zero resiliency! That, my friend, is NOT subjective, but a FACT!

    And, yes, for all I know, most of those people in the feedback section are regular poly users, so of course they don't find K-Gut Pro to feel much stiffer. But even poly users agree that it's not soft but on the stiffer side.
     
    #26
  27. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Do you work for the USRSA?

    "Self-promotion"
    ? What am I promoting about myself? The fact that I'm injured, lame, and can't play tennis due to tennis elbow caused by a string? Great "self-promotion", huh?

    And ALL of my statements about K-Gut and K-Gut Pro are 100% sincere and factual. Don't you think I'd much rather be out playing tennis than sitting here complaining about some stupid string?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
    #27
  28. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Breakpoint and I both agree that the USRSA ratings are useful, but not gospel. I used Gosen synthetic gut 17 a few months ago and my golfer's elbow flared up after that 2 set match. The ratings would not support such an event since the week before I played a 3 set match in the same weather conditions/balls with Gamma synthetic gut 16 (higher stiffness rating) against the same opponent and had little soreness afterwards.

    I've been on the sidelines most of the last 2 months, so I have been using the USRSA tables to research strings on the lower end of the stiffness rating. Before I go to the expense of natural gut, I'm going to try some multis with stiffness ratings close to natural gut.
     
    #28
  29. Richie Rich

    Richie Rich Legend

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    i agree. the USRSA ratings, like anything else, just another data point to help you filter what might work for you. they let you know what you are likely to expect from a string but you still won't 100% know until you put it in your frame at your tension and see how it works for you.
     
    #29
  30. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    Actually, you don't even "know" what role a tennis string can play in bringing on TE, did you know that? No one knows it. Moreover, it cannot even known what part of the arm is responsible for the TE when TE first appears. This is how one noted TE specialist insists on treating shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, wrist and hand when TE strikes, and why an examination of stroke technique is even called for. As you point out, to be so sure as you have been literally now requires that you believe and know more about TE than the entire medical profession combined.... How likely is that, to you?
     
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  31. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    There is no one here who is going to disagree with that--and anyone who ever did--insofar as you mean these measurements don't often add up for play itself. And that's not what we're talking about too, though, in here now, did you know it?
     
    #31
  32. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    You bring your own context in here, even quote yourself, and ban every other source contradicting you from consideration for low motives. Does that add up to you?
     
    #32
  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    How about this? I know. I probably know as much or more about TE than some doctors that have never experienced TE themselves and who don't play tennis.

    When you use the same racquet, the same strokes, play the same frequency, on the same surface for many years, and the only thing that changed were the strings, then the cause is the strings. By not using the strings, I didn't even have a hint of TE. When the string feels harsh and stiff and every time you hit the ball you can feel it tearing your elbow tendon, it is the strings causing your TE. I can't think of anything else in this world that's more black and white and clear.

    Here's a list of things that can cause TE from playing tennis (in no particular order):

    1. Poor technique
    2. Old, brittle, weak elbow tendons
    3. Overuse
    4. Stiff and/or light and/or extra long racquets.
    5. Smaller racquet heads and denser string patterns
    6. Stiff, unforgiving, and less resilient strings.

    Not an exhaustive list but I'd say these are the main causes of the great majority of people who get TE from playing tennis. This is also why so many people experience elbow problems after switching to poly strings when nothing else has changed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
    #33
  34. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Lots of stiffness numbers being thrown around in this thread so I just thought I'd bring it up. You and BP can go back to your flame war now...
     
    #34
  35. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Huh? "quote myself"? "low motives"? Where? :confused:

    OTOH, you obviously have some vested interest in the USRSA or else you wouldn't always defend them so vehemently all the time.
     
    #35
  36. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    My experience is different. I tried a soft poly (Sonic Pro) and it felt fine while hitting, but I feel the pain afterwards after I am done playing. It's weird how the stringbed feels nice and soft while playing, but then you get TE afterwards.
     
    #36
  37. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    For someone who claims incomparable knowledge of TE, how is it you don't refer to it as the overuse injury it often is instead of something that comes on suddenly? This is the type someone of your years and experience is likely to develop and that type can be particularly hard to diagnose as it lacks specific causes. Similarly, overall strength can play a dominant role, which is how one pro trainer came to say the reason there is so little TE on the pro tours is the strength and conditioning work the players do. Do you know yours? Your approach to your own injury seems controlled by your taste in injury therapy rather than related to what you did. I still think your refusal to playtest NXT Tour next to K-Gut Pro reflects that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
    #37
  38. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    To my knowledge the USRSA has never taken a position on whether K-Gut Pro causes TE, and whether string itself can do that. (For instance, what can account for the different pace at which TE comes on for different people, if it's the potent cause you seem to think it is?) Have they to you, though? How do they get involved, even, then?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2009
    #38
  39. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Has the USRSA ever taken a position on whether ANY string causes TE, not just K-Gut Pro? Why would an organization that exists because of strings ever want to claim that strings can cause TE? Wouldn't that be like the tobacco industry voluntarily admitting that smoking can kill people?

    People get TE at different rates because everyone's arms are different, their tendons are different, their ages are different, their strokes are different, their racquets are different, the frequency and amount they play are different, their level of play is different, their style of play is different (S&V or baseliner, etc.), their backhands are different (1HBH vs. 2HBH), and yes, they use different string set-ups at different tensions. Some people are also just less prone to TE than others, e.g., they have arms of steel, etc. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer nor at the same rate either but would you claim that smoking is not hazardous to your health?
     
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  40. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Are you kidding? TE and GE are VERY common amongst the pros. Del Potro had to retire during several tournaments this fall because of his elbow. Krajicek had to retire from tennis period because of TE. Sampras, Gasquet, Roddick, Nishikori, etc. have all had TE or GE. However, since most pros are very young, they would have to do a lot of damage before they get TE. And how many recreational players train and condition themselves as much as the pros do? How many pros are over the age of 40?

    Yes, TE is an overuse injury, but you can also injury yourself suddenly. TE is a tear in your tendon and you can tear your tendon in a myriad of ways. I play a lot of tennis, but as long as I don't use a stiff string, I am fine and can play as much as I want for as long as I want. My elbow is always under stress when I play tennis but not enough to tear my tendon. I do overuse my elbow but not at the stress level required to tear the tendon. It takes a stiff string to do that. Just like you can put below the maximum number of people inside an elevator and it will work fine for a long time and will continue to work fine as long as you never overload it. But once you overload it by putting more than the maximum number of people in elevator and causing more stress to the cable system, you risk eventually having a failure. It may or may not happen right away, but the extra stress will more likely eventually cause it to fail than if you've never overloaded the elevator.
     
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  41. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Is this answer enough for you?

    Why would I want to play with another stiff, arm damaging string after my experience with K-Gut Pro? I'm not a masochist.

    BTW, have you noticed that Wilson has dropped the price of K-Gut and K-Gut Pro to $16.95? Probably because of all the people that stopped buying it after it destroyed their arms.
     
    #41
  42. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    Quite simply because NXT Tour preceded K-Gut Pro in the Wilson line and has a measured stiffness value considerably above K-Gut Pro. Can't you say it is stiffer than K-Gut Pro then? I wonder how you keep missing the point; can't keep the conversation in focus, it looks like to me.

    Also of general interest for us now too might be how K-Gut got into all this since you've never claimed *it* gave you TE too.
     
    #42
  43. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    You've had better experience with elevators, apparently. They're seemingly more readable for you too.

    When I wrote little TE on the tours, I didn't expect you to respond as if I had said *none*.

    Wait, I did too--you do that all the time too, over-represent what's said.
     
    #43
  44. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But those measured stiffness values are meaningless remember? They measured the stiffness of K-Gut Pro 16 at 182 and Gosen OG Sheep Micro 16 at 203 but I find K-Gut Pro 16 to play and feel significantly stiffer than OG Sheep Micro. So, to me, it's irrelevant what they measured NXT Tour's stiffness to be.

    BTW, I even find K-Gut Pro 16 to play and feel stiffer than Wilson Stamina 16, which is rated at 219. I played with a few racquets strung with Stamina 16 for years with no elbow problems at all. Not even a twinge. In a blind test, there's no doubt that I would choose K-Gut Pro as the stiffer of the two. If I had to guess the stiffness of K-Gut Pro 16, I would guess around 240.

    I played with both at the same time. They are both stiff, but K-Gut Pro is the stiffer of the two. So since it plays and feels stiffer than K-Gut, it's logical to believe that K-Gut Pro was damaging my arm more than the K-Gut was.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2009
    #44
  45. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But it's not "little", it's rampant. So many pros get injured all the time and very often the injury is TE or GE. It would be even much worse if the pros kept playing past the age of 40.
     
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  46. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    "Meaningless?" Have you answered yet (in another thread) where your "meaningless" comes from? Then, we could all share in your "meaning"--its "meaning" for you, that would be.

    I'm still talking about your definition when I say you should report how you compare against those reported stiffness values, using something with supposed higher stiffness--why not the NXT Tour, Wilson's predecessor string, with its handy number--against your bete noire, K-Gut Pro.

    I believe your threat to us was how K-Gut *as well*--though, strangely enough, previously you'd not told that you used it enough to tell--could give us all TE.

    Still not conversing over how players using the same string--any one, polyester, what have you--did, and did not, experience arm discomfort, let alone TE? And how it's taken varying amounts of time/play to produce what they did experience? What kind of alarm does one give out *then*?
     
    #46
  47. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    "Meaningless" = does not mean anything. When test results are inaccurate and not to be trusted, then they do not mean anything to me, i.e., "meaningless".

    Come back to us after you've had several bouts of TE. Maybe only then you will actually start to understand.
     
    #47
  48. Valjean

    Valjean Hall of Fame

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    Come on, now; wander on over to that 2009 Members' Choice Awards thread and answer those related questions about identifying stiffness in play you've been ignoring. We'd all like to know just what you've been saying about that too: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=303624&page=2
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2010
    #48
  49. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    I can't believe you guys are still arguing about K-Gut. Give it a rest!
     
    #49
  50. Azzurri

    Azzurri Legend

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    I love it! Valjean owned..again. thanks for sharing BP.
     
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