Extent of racket drop

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by gzhpcu, Mar 7, 2009.

  1. superslam

    superslam New User

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    Jo11yroger what do you suggest against playing a 3.5 player who likes to hit moon balls and lobs? Also who has a slow first and second serve. Can you give me suggestions on how to tackle an opponent like this?
     
    #51
  2. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, right after I get back from the gym and my hitting session :)

    Look for a reply later or in the AM.

    Time to make the doughnuts!

    J-Rog Out!

    J
     
    #52
  3. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    dont you think that deserves a new thread?
     
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  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    That is all correct I expect, but has maybe nothing to do with his ability to go very big on a regular basis on his first serve.

    Agassi, the man he beat who was a #1 and awesome player, didn't have this ability. He did not have great drop or delay on most of his serves.
    I don't say he never did, because I didn't see and study every serve. I can only speak to serves I've had access to study.
     
    #54
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    good point.
     
    #55
  6. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I will reply in his Varsity Tryout thread.

    In other more related news, I got switched to another court with direct lighting, and I will still wear white, so hopefully the high speed vid will come out OK.

    J
     
    #56
  7. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    High speed vid came out ummmmm fair.

    I will have to edit it down a lot because it will take like 15 minutes to see 6 serves.

    The vid is a little dark, and there are some hitches in the recording. But it is pretty cool.

    I can gladly report that I have all kinds of racquet drop on the serve, it gets down well past my ass, but not to the knee/short leg.

    All kinds of batspeed on the FH too, but that is old news.

    J
     
    #57
  8. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Just a quick preview.

    I think max drop would be right between these two frames.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    J
     
    #58
  9. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    More pics from the same serve shown above.

    It was a 2nd serve out wide, that using the frame counter, clocked in around 110mph.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    J
     
    #59
  10. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Nice racket drop J011yroger...:)
     
    #60
  11. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    jolly if i can call you that for short great positions looks just like the pros!!!!! if i had to be picky you seem alittle off balance (too much left lean) on the second serve. but that is being picky
     
    #61
  12. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/84710169/Getty-Images-Sport?axd=DetailPaging.Generic|1&axs=0|84749114%2c84745052%2c84745044%2c84743550%2c84743452%2c84742795%2c84741454%2c84739167%2c84738289%2c84737942%2c84737833%2c84737307%2c84737136%2c84736720%2c84736711%2c84736540%2c84728187%2c84728138%2c84727602%2c84727595%2c84726927%2c84726876%2c84726865%2c84726836%2c84723540%2c84723537%2c84723533%2c84723518%2c84722491%2c84721064%2c84721062%2c84720949%2c84720827%2c84710169%2c84709096%2c84706967%2c84706944%2c84706893%2c84706725%2c84706666%2c84703634%2c84703611%2c84703606%2c84703599%2c84702875%2c84702863%2c84702850%2c84702839%2c84702803%2c84702793%2c84702782%2c84702747%2c84702731%2c84691845%2c84691272%2c84691268%2c84691125%2c84691103%2c84691072%2c84691026
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2009
    #62
  13. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    you need to copy and paste the link to see the photo. he is already on the way up alittle looks like jolly's position. can anyone figure out how to post photo?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2009
    #63
  14. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    #64
  15. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    thanks i wish i knew how to do that it didnt copy like that for me. looks like jolly's position. or i should say he looks like JO11yroger
     
    #65
  16. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    When you post a reply, you will see on the second row of the menu, underneath the white smiley, an icon with a blue dot. Click on it, and a window appears asking for the url. You just cut and paste it in, and then you are set. There is also an image icon, but for some reason, it did not work for me...
     
    #66
  17. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Here is another nice deep one, almost to the knee. Once again I think max drop is between these 2 frames.

    Man do I hate editing High Speed video.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    J
     
    #67
  18. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Stoked to see how deep I get on a nice hot summer day when I can relax and let it fly.

    130 or bust!

    J
     
    #68
  19. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think it is too picky at all.
    yes, excellent racket drop, but remember, that is the last 10% or so assuming everything else is in place, as it usually is with the pro men. In this case there are a couple of more basic areas that while not bad, could use some tweaking, while maintaining that nice drop.

    Balance is sooo important to transmitting power, especially with accuracy. It would also help the other aspect he can improve on, which is pronation. Yes, he has some, but it could be stronger with a better angle of approach. That excellent racket drop needs to translate up and into a stronger, up and right pronation. The current pronation tells me that some of the power is already dropping off at the top of his leg drive. This is not like a jump shot where you want to get to the top of your jump then, gather and shoot. You must drive up and power into the ball.

    Really overall excellent serving though. Serving that any college player could be very proud of!

    One more thing that may be slightly picky is shoulder turn. I think there can be improvement there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
    #69
  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So Jolly, had a chance to ck your email? or this thread?
     
    #70
  21. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Just got home, and yes, thank you very much for the comments.

    I will take a look again at the videos and look again at the comments.

    I know what you are saying about the framerate, even with the 210FPS it is still too fast just watching, and I have to step through frame by frame to see what is going on.

    RE: Pronation. All of those serves were spin serves of some variety, and I think most were 2nd serves, I just tried to pick the ones filmed cleanly through the swing portion. Would that have something to do with the reduced pronation? Because while I have not seen myself on video much, I have been told that I pronate very hard, actually exceptionally heavily by several high level coaches. So I don't know if I have gotten away from that somehow over the winter, or if it is just because in these vids I am throwing junk serves. The weather is supposed to be nice tomorrow, so maybe I can get outside and really starch a few, too see what that looks like in comparison.

    So in these vids I am mostly concentrating on attacking the inside/bottom of the ball, which is mostly what I do on clay anyway. Really only bring out the big one for the element of surprise.

    RE: Leg Drive. Yea, I see what you are saying, and the thing I noticed was the front foot movement, that is a bad habit I really thought I had stamped out, and I think is something that contributes. I think if I load the front leg more, and launch into the ball, that will clear itself up. I was for sure being a bit tentative.

    RE: Shoulder Turn: I am unsure of what you are saying is wrong, that there is not enough initial turn, or that I am uncoiling out of sequence.

    RE: Balance. Yea, it is a constant battle for me. We have been working on shoring up the motion, so that it puts less stress on my back and legs, to make it more repeatable, and keeps me with my weight more centered and evenly distributed. Been an uphill fight, but I am too stubborn to give up.

    Once again, thanks so much for your time. I truely appreciate it.

    130mph or bust!

    J
     
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  22. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    If you are in doubt as to the extent of your pronation, do you have any frame after impact? The racket face should be facing outward.
     
    #72
  23. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    It is that I don't have any flat serves on high speed video.

    I felt really tight that night, and didn't want to try to crack any, so I just hit spin serves.

    Will see if I can get some tomorrow.

    J
     
    #73
  24. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    If you are curious, these are some tiebreakers played after the highspeed film was taken.

    You can see that I am not really thumping it. But am getting pretty good kick, esp on the 2nd ball.

    J
     
    #74
  25. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    I think pronation would tend to be more extreme on a second serve. Have a frame showing the max. outward position of the racket head after impact?
     
    #75
  26. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    BTW, difficult to see on your videos, but on your forehand backswing, when you begin to initiate the forward movement, the face of your racket seems to be kind of perpendicular to the court, whereas if you compare it to Federer or Nadal you will see they have the face of the racket facing the court and the wrist bend back.
     
    #76
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    on shoulder turn, it was not bad at all. Actually everything was pretty good except balance, but just looked like you could have gotten more or deeper turn. Maybe the second serve thing explains that, but I don't think so.

    As for pronation, it just didn't have the strong left to right action that I see in big servers I've studied. This could be affected by the less shoulder turn though. the pronation may be there, just on another vector. Pronation is also greatly affected by the delay aspect on the elbow. If the elbow extends at the last moment, then the racket head goes from very low, up to the ball and around bk down so that it really drives the pronation.
    this is why Pete's swing was nearly finished on the way down, but above his chest. we don't have the frame rate to be clear on this in your case.

    Best I could tell with this frame rate, the racket drop was excellent, especially for second serves.
    Notice I didn't say spin serves though, as I think first serves should be very good spin serves.
    Even Pete had less drop for second serves from what I could tell in his vids.
     
    #77
  28. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Jolly,
    there is also a relation with shldr turn and leg drive that I will try to describe. Tell me if it makes sense.

    The deep shldr turn is stopped or bounced off the back limits by the leg drive.
    The timing should be such that as the legs drive the torso up, they cause sort of a jam that not only stops the shldrs, but helps them to bounce or whip back towards the front and over the top. This allow the server to whip the serve, opposed to muscle the shoulder back around.
    does this make sense?
     
    #78
  29. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    5263,
    The determinng contribution to the speed of serve from the shoulders comes primarily from cartwheeling and not from rotating. Going from left shoulder high/ right shoulder low to right shoulder high/left shoulder low at impact.
     
    #79
  30. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I think I understand, I don't really focus on uncoiling, I just load and coil, and then settle under the ball, and try to unload into it as it drops into the hitting zone. (I have a mile high toss)

    I have a chronic bad back, and when it is stiff, or I can't get loose enough, I will cut down on the turn and such, but in the warmer weather when I can get good and loose, I pretty much show my back to the opponent.

    Working on the balance, and repeatability thing pretty hard, since I am tall, all arms and legs, it doesn't take much to throw me out of whack.

    I will have to try to get vid of me flattening the ball out. Something just isn't right with the flat ball, I can feel it. When I really square the topspin ball it feels perfect, and on a good warm day I have little trouble throwing them in the 110-115 range and 6'+ in the air. But I struggle to get the flat ball out of the low 120's on my best day.

    Some coaches have said lack of delay, some have said I am hitting the end of my rope just before contact on the flat ball, and accelerating through the spin serve.

    J
     
    #80
  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think I get your point, although it is just a matter of settling on terms. Neither cartwheeling or rotating are actually that accurate for descriptions, although I could agree that cartwheeling may be better. It really comes down to working within the understanding of you audience. I find that quite a few people struggle with the cartwheeling term.
    I feel this is one of the most important aspects of coaching, to find words that translate to each person's understanding.
     
    #81
  32. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Would "shoulder over shoulder" be a better term?
     
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  33. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It has promise. I'll see if it gets me that blank stare or not. LoL.
    Let's see what Jolley says.

    Also remember it is more of a rotation back, the shoulder over shoulder, coming back around.
     
    #83
  34. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Hmmm... "corkscrewing"?
     
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  35. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I understand what you are both talking about. Have studied this stuff fairly extensively :)

    J
     
    #85
  36. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest

    #86
  37. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest

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  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm sure you do. Thats why I way curious what you may consider an adequate term to use for the description. Maybe you have a better way to describe the shoulder action as it moves into the CP.
    Dave Smith, you have a good term for this shoulder action?
     
    #88
  39. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest


    Hey Jolly... are you saying you serve average near 130 MPH?
     
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  40. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I just call it shoulder over shoulder rotation, and think of replacing the left shoulder with the right one. Sometimes I say see-saw even though there is rotation about two axis.

    I focus on a heavy shoulder tilt, and then firing upwards. Currently I fire the elbow upwards, but have experimented with firing the right shoulder upwards and I think that is what is going to take me over the top, but it is a bit scary because if my timing is off and I hit the end of my reach before I hit the ball, I am leery of hyperextending my elbow, or hurting my arm.

    J
     
    #90
  41. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Nope, there is something wrong with my flat delivery keeping me out of the 130's, I can feel it. I can hit a hard topspin serve in the 110-115mph range, but can't get out of the low/mid 120's with the flat ball.

    J
     
    #91
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Does anyone serve in the 130s with a 90sq in head, strung with 70 lbs LUX?? LoL
    Can't think of anyone.
     
    #92
  43. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest

    You have accurately speed tested your average serves at + 120MPH? 2nd serves at 110-115 MPH?

    I think a lot of people think they serve harder than they do. If you say it is so, I have to believe you.

    Hey Pete... you for sure ARE NOT + 100 MPH.
     
    #93
  44. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think it makes much of a difference on serves. Will let you know if I do, certainly not the end of the world if I don't. But if I don't it will not be for lack of effort, on and off court.

    J
     
    #94
  45. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    5263.....
    A good server, usually a tall, strong, guy, can serve 130's with any size racket under almost any tension....but...
    For replicable CONTROL, they'd mostly choose small heads under 95, and tensions that work for them with their service swings.
    ColinDibley, back in the late '70's, used a MaxPly with 70+ lbs. VS 16 gauge gut to get 149 at GoldenGatePark SanFrancisco. MaxPly was what ?... 70 sq in. ???
    And I guess Roddick uses like one hundred something and hits the ball pretty fast too.
     
    #95
  46. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    No, not avg 120+ top out at 120+.

    2nd serves only get above 110 when I catch the ball more squarely than I intended.

    Lots of matches I will use spin serves first and 2nd, and just kick the 2nd a little more, so I will hit the hard topspin serve for a 1st serve. I have to be feeling it, and good and loose to bring out the bomb. Especially on clay, I will just slap one for the element of surprise or slice one for the element of surprise since people are used to returning balls eye level or over their head.

    In wintertime I scale it back, and try not to be a hero, because my body just revolts in cooler temps, but on a nice warm summer day I can serve an absolute ton.

    Last time I was on the gun was last spring, (late april I believe) hardest flat ball was 122, hardest topspin ball 116, hardest slider 112.

    I may or may not be serving bigger now, but I certainly am not going to claim it on speculation.

    I hate practicing on radar, because I tighten up and it jives with me, same thing when I try to hit a stroke for vid analysis, I was surprised the vids I took for the serve analysis looked as good as it did, because I felt like my body was made out of wood when I was filming them. Same with groundies, Coach asked me to film some FHs from a different angle, and because I was thinking about it they sucked, went back and watched the vid, and my 2hbh which I wasn't thinking about at all, was as smooth as I had ever seen.

    I think I am just mentally defective. Actually pretty sure of it.

    J
     
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  47. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    OT mode:

    I just watched your "tiebreakers" video and you seem to dominate the drop shot game! You had poor blue shirt man on a string, it seems. Of course, I understand that video editing probably played a role in that video as well. :)

    I noticed in your last response you said that you rarely bring out the flat bomb, which I also noticed in your vids. Not that it matters when they all kick up over blue's head, as he pointed out halfway through the video. Better margin for error too, resulting in less of the double faulting blues. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
    #97
  48. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Dunno if you are interested but here are points from tiebreakers we played after I shot the high speed. Probably serving around 60% effort, and all hard spin serves. I know it is tough to judge speed on low qual video, but you sound like you have played enough T that you have an idea of how fast the ball is moving by the sound it makes. Watch how high the kick is on most of them. My friend (in blue) is around 5'10" for reference.

    Obviously I am the tall good looking guy in white. And yea, I know I desperately need a tan.

    http://vimeo.com/3657159

    J
     
    #98
  49. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    You desperately need some bulk, Jo11y! :)

    Beef cake, baby.
     
    #99
  50. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure your point. You clearly don't have a name of anyone who is using stiff Poly @ 70+ lbs, in a 90 head or smaller.
    Your old timers didn't use poly.
    Roddick uses a Hybrid I understand, in a 100 head size and it is one of the most powerful serve rackets I've ever used. I even broke 120 with it, and I'm well past my prime.
    Sampras was not real frequent in the 130s and did not use Poly.
    get the idea?
    Jolly is using a very demanding combination.
     

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