Extent of racket drop

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by gzhpcu, Mar 7, 2009.

  1. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I think I hit 4 maybe 5 droppers, and won all but one of the points, but my buddy is quick as hell, and if I do it at the wrong time, he gets to it, like in an instant. So I try to keep him pinned to the back wall.

    I edited out the one I botched and he won the point.

    I believe my exact words were "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU THINKING?!? USE YOUR HEAD FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN A F'ING HAT RACK!!!".

    Ya, no need to bring the bomb, especially on clay, and my arm thanks me.

    Do not underestimate my ability to double fault!

    I can double fault like a champion.

    When things are going well, they go really well. When things go bad, they go really bad.

    I am pretty good at managing DFs as long as I have a full nights sleep. If I only get a few hours sleep, it can be really bad, I have trouble concentrating, and I put the ball up, and kind of lose it, and let it drop too far before I hit it. Or if my back locks up, it just says "J, you can try to serve if you want, but I am not going to let you" And sometimes I try, and then I fail.

    J
     
  2. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    My back doesn't cause me to double fault. It's that pesky toss that gets me.

    "Go up, ball! NO, NOT THAT WAY!"

    And yet, I just can't bring myself to catch bad tosses. Stupid? Very.
     
  3. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I do pretty tough off court training, so I will have that covered, don't need to add any bulk though. Get stronger, faster, better balanced.

    I'll put up some shirtless pics from a training session once it warms up. I got 99 problems, but being out of shape isn't one.

    J
     
  4. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Do you choose where you are going to serve while you are bouncing the ball?

    Do you visualize where you want the toss to be, before you begin your motion?

    Do you hold the ball in the tips of your fingers like an egg sitting on a stand?

    Do you keep your arm straight and put the ball up with no spin?

    J
     
  5. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I actually serve bigger with my frames than with a PDR+. Or most anything else I have tried.

    Now I am not saying it is the racquet, it is probably because of my timing being set to the frame I use every day.

    But my goal isn't so much to put up the number, or compare myself to others. I just want to be able to get the most out of what my body can do.

    I know I won't ever be throwing down 144mph Roddick bombs, but I also don't want to be leaving something on the table. I am sure I will be quite content with wherever I end up, as long as I feel that I am doing the most that my body is capable of. No matter if it is 115 or 135.

    J
     
  6. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    P.S. I have strung from 56-70, full poly, hybrids, multis, and gut, and don't think any of that made any appreciable difference in serve speed to me.

    Would gladly put it to the test in the spring. Would be a cool experiment.

    J
     
  7. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    I know. Just messing around.

    I have to say, I wouldn't mind being built like Verdasco though. And I mean that in a totally gay way.
     
  8. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Agree 100% Dude was in some kind of shape in Oz.

    J
     
  9. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    wish i had those problems jolly. lol
     
  10. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    lol, don't worry, I have enough other problems that make up for it :)

    J
     
  11. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest

    Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.
     
  12. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest


    Yes. Yes. No. No.
     
  13. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Jo11y can kick them over the 12 foot backdrop, with video evidence, so yeah.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
  14. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ummmm... I am not trying to prove anyting, just saying, this is how I serve if you are curious. Sure there are lots of people who serve better, worse, or different than me.

    J
     
  15. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest


    Thats cool... I can flatten a serve with pace too, just I don't think most players who think they serve 120 MPH, serve 120 MPH.

    Tonight I kicked serve on a hard court like 10 ft, I couldn't do it twice, but the speed was maybe like 70 MPH.

    I serve harder than every player I play against, and I don't think I serve over 100 MPH... so I just don't buy into the "speed of serve cult".

    Jolly... me and you... we're cool. :)
     
  16. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest


    An 8-10 ft kick serve on clay court is routine.
     
  17. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Thanks for the update, Big Ben.
     
  18. Slicendicer

    Slicendicer Guest


    No problem... I used to practice with a few pro players that served 115-130 MPH... I don;t think you realize how fast that is. It would be extremely rare for a 4.0-4.5 club player to serve over 120 MPH.

    I hit with Roddick in December after he won the Open... dude you have no idea what a kick serve is until you see a true 115 MPH spin serve from across the net. So if I'm skeptical of a 4.5 player saying he hits routine 2nd spin serves at 115 MPH... or a 14 y.o. 3.0 player serving +100 MPH... I hope you understand.
     
  19. Julieta

    Julieta Guest

    I'm with you on this. It is all a matter of frame of reference.
     
  20. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Last night was the first night I tried to start feeling out the flat ball. It is still about 2 weeks away from active duty, but I snapped a few frames out of the vid on two of my flatter balls.

    If you watch my latest vid these serves are at the end. Memory card ran out just as I was starting to get warmed up serving so there aren't too many. Swachime!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    J
     
  21. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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  22. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Bit hard to see because fuzzy, but it certainly looks like you have very nice pronation. Nice style overall.

    Just a question: seems to me that for a flat serve you are going a lot more up than forward. Ever try putting the ball up a bit more forward, so as to get more body lean into it? Think it would increase your power...
     
  23. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ya, I have tried it both ways. I was feeling out the toss last night, but we were both pretty out of it.

    I am moving it from straight ahead, to just to the right, and near the baseline and into the court.

    Like I said it is going to take me a good two weeks, it all feels pretty vague right now.

    Last summer when I was really cracking it, I served the biggest flat balls with the toss straight in front of me, and not terribly far into the court.

    Things go well when I go up. I think UP about everything in the serve.

    A little more time, and a little more temp, and I will really start to lean into it and see what I have.

    I am just a bit chickenhearted right now, as I don't want to hurt my arm going for too much too soon.

    J
     
  24. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Here is the link.

    http://www.vimeo.com/3789362

    I know it isn't pretty, Friday night at 11pm after a long work week, and we were both out of it.

    J
     
  25. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    getting the thumb pointed to the ground ie complete pronation is very important for a powerful serve. in the pics you have shown your arm is still extended you have not gotten into the "high elbow bent arm" in this pic. i know the thread focuses on this look whith a commanding argument for it i still think but cant prove that the complete pronation with the thum and racquet pointed at the court ie completely turned over IS whats important. the high elbow imho has to do with when the arm relaxes and starts to bend. if you look at aggassi for example he never quite gets to that extreme position.heres your pic jolly i am referring to vvvvvvv
     
  26. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    arm straight but great pronation
     
  27. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    Agassi does not have the high elbow position...
    tried to post his pic i get these 2 threads mixed up. the other thing thats important is your palm need to face the right side fence for full pronation
     
  28. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    look at the sampras / gonzales pics (it did not copy/paste for me) GORGEOUS PRONATION!!!!
     
  29. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Going to investigate the high elbow thing in the coming weeks.

    Have you looked at Safin, Fish, Delic, Querry, Guccione, Lubicic?

    J
     
  30. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Here is Safin:

    [​IMG]
     
  31. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^ What do you think? His arm/elbow is still high, but the arm is straight without the forearm pointing down?

    J
     
  32. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Safin has a great serve. He does not have that "broken arm" finish. A finish like you have. Kind of baffling... He also had heavy spin on the ball... Is having a straight arm finish an indication of better extension and accuracy?

    I wonder (yes, I know: apples and oranges :)), if this whole business is not somewhat akin to the forehand issues of whether to hit the ball with a straight arm or a bent arm?
     
  33. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Brian Gordon, who has done so great biomechanical analysis of the serve, posted this picture of his in another thread:

    [​IMG]

    which is another representation of the one I referred to earlier:

    [​IMG]

    Evidence of the lag in the movement and really late acceleration prior to impact.
     
  34. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Brian Gordon made some very good comments in a thread "How can I improve my serve":

     
  35. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    but look at his palm facing the side fence. complete pronation. with no science to back it up but as a gestault of my reading i beleive that is more important than the "broken arm" finish. i wish if my arm was broken i could serve like sampras.lol
     
  36. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    seems like brian thinks a deeper drop is better.
     
  37. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Yes, and I think it is what you alluded to somewhere else, that it is an indication of inherent biomechanical flexibility coupled with getting all aspects of the kinetic chain correct.
     
  38. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Boy. . . this looks mighty similar to what I have going on with the exception of sliding the back foot. What do you guys think? I can put up pics to compare if you choose a few out of the sequence.

    [​IMG]

    J
     
  39. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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  40. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Looks perliously close to an eastern FH grip from Marat.

    J
     
  41. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    In your post #138, Marat gets an awful lot of strong shoulder over shoulder movement in his serve. He is also leaning off to the side quite a lot for what looks like a heavy twist serve...
     
  42. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    look at the amount of pronation . i cant get away from that core fundamental
     
  43. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    Right. It is a sign of a biomechanically correct and natural non-stress movement for a heavy spin serve. Of itself, it does not significantly contribute to racket speed (about 5% according to Brian Gordon...)
     
  44. Julieta

    Julieta Guest

    If you have a pic of your contact point I think that would be interesting. I cant see it in these (kind of fuzzy due to the lighting) but it looks like it might be out to the right, lined up with or perhaps to the right of your right foot. Is that where you typically make contact or is that just the way your pics look due to the lighting?
     
  45. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    From a few pages ago, in this very thread.

    J
     
  46. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Or were these the ones you were saying were not clear?

    I have a bunch more, but from the bottom of the drop to contact is tough to find any sort of clear frame.

    These were shot in 210fps.

    J
     
  47. gzhpcu

    gzhpcu Professional

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    J011yroger, congratulations, looks very nice. Would you happen to have any from the side as well? Would be interested to see the impact point...
     
  48. Julieta

    Julieta Guest

    Thanks, I didnt see that last one in any of the earlier posts, sorry.

    Is your shoulder okay now? Any recent problems?
     
  49. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I don't have any serves. Would it be best from a front 3/4 angle, or straight on from the side?

    It is going to be cold this week, but if it warms up next week I will gladly shoot some.

    High speed just comes out too dark indoors, which is why I wore all white.

    J
     
  50. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    FYI that particular serve was a 2nd out wide to the BH.

    J
     

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