Farenheit 9/11

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by perfmode, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. perfmode

    perfmode Hall of Fame

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    I think this could be the end of Bush. If enough people go to see this movie/doc, he's toast. Gore is going to be re-elected at the end of the year for sure.
     
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  2. @wright

    @wright Hall of Fame

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    Doesn't Gore have to be elected once before he can be re-elected? Michael Moore is a good example of why people in Hollyweird shouldn't get mixed up in politics.
     
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  3. perfmode

    perfmode Hall of Fame

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    Have you seen it yet? Do you think that Bush can explain what Moore has revealed? Even if it is biased, it exposes a lot of dirty secrets and facts. You can't deny that.
     
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  4. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    well first you should know that michael moore takes some liberties w. the truth in his moviemaking. i guess if you believe everything he puts on the screen to be true, then it sure does put the bushman in a very bad light. if you have seen bowling for columbine w. the bank scene where he walks out w. a free rifle for opening up an account <pretty funny>....well as it turns out, that was contrived..it wasnt true. his movies arent true documentaries..they are films. having said that, bush really sucks ;) ed
     
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  5. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    Awright, you can certainly accuse Moore to be filfty rich now but he is certainly no hollywood head. He is from Flint, Michigan -- a true midwestern with a working class background and all. His dad was an auto mechanic.

    You guys shouldn't put the blame on hollywood anyway. It's the best asset america has when it comes to 'win the hearts and mind' of the rest of the world. It does everyday what no army can do.

    About Fahrenheit -- I doubt it will convince anyone when it comes to november but the movie (whether you call it fiction or documentary) is certainly making a few good points. One of them being -- shall we expect from our leader to sit in a classroom for 5 minutes straight after being informed that the nation is under attack.

    See it for yourself, take a look at your watch and ask yourself whether the man deserves to be your leader.

    Video (quicktime)
    http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.mov

    Stills:
    http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm

     
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  6. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war
    in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor,
    for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.
    It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
    And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch
    and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed,
    the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
    Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism,
    will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
    How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

    -- Julius Caesar


    What rights are you willing to give up? I suppose you aren't troubled by the Bush administration's proclivity towards secrecy and self-protection. It would be fascinating to see how Bush would fare on the intelligence and psychometric testing that my corporation uses to evaluate its leaders and new hires.
     
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  7. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    morpheus how about a simple IQ test? the bushman is the lowest recorded iq'd us president in US history and it is pretty obvious when you hear him speak..what a bonehead we <sort of> elected to the presidency....;) ed
     
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  8. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    Well, maybe we could start with emode or tickle.com since the ceiling on these tests is so low... :wink:

    I worry more about personality than intelligence. In my view, he's mean spirited and self righteous. In another place and another time, he very well could have been a "bad" guy. Moore actually gives Bush too much credit for being manipulative. He's just not that sharp.

    BTW, I'm am not a Democrat, but just a guy who doesn't like where Bush has taken us and the manner in which he has done so...

    Put aside your feelings about Moore and just go see the movie. It is quite powerful with amazing footage, and well worth the investment in time and money to view. It may not change your vote, but it may change how you think about Bush's vision and tactics.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. David Pavlich

    David Pavlich Professional

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    Does the fact that Moore is a liar have any bearing on your opinion of his "documentaries"?

    Case in point. A few days ago, Moore proudly proclaimed that he's an independent. Well...as it turns out, he's a registered Democrat in New York (hasn't voted since 2001, btw). He's also registered in Flint, but registration there does not require that you name your party affiliation, so his claim to be an independent is cannot be corroborated. Typical.

    His whole assertion that the bin Laden family that was in the states at the time of 9/11 was rushed out of the country before the flight restrictions were lifted is false, as is his assertion that these people weren't interogated before they left. If you don't believe me, check the latest issue of Newsweek and the letters to the editor section. Newsweek did the footwork and found that Moore's claim is false.

    The majority of the people that have seen or will see this movie already hate Bush. It won't make any difference come November.

    David
     
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  10. perfmode

    perfmode Hall of Fame

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    "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."


    -Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946)
    Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler's designated successor

    The second in command of the Third Reich
     
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  11. Capt. Willie

    Capt. Willie Professional

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    A perfect example of our fearless leaders intelligence, which the film ended with: "There's an old saying in Tennessee. I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee... that says....fool me once, shame on....shame on you. Fool me......you can't get fooled again."
     
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  12. Capt. Willie

    Capt. Willie Professional

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    I'm a big Michael Moore fan, have been since way back to the days of "Roger And Me" and "TV Nation". I'll be the first to admit that Mike bends the truth a bit from time to time to get a point across. But if only 50% of what he claims is true (and I think it is a much, much higher percentage than that) it is still a very scary situation.
     
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  13. perfmode

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    Lol, his facial expression was SO FUNNY. His hand gestures were the icing on the cake for me.
     
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  14. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    "I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind," he said.

    "I see dangers that exist and it's important for us to deal with them."

    Yes, and we see dead people. I feel so much safer now, don't you?
     
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  15. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    the thing about michael moore IMO, is that he had plenty of good ammunition on bush w.o having to do fictional stuff <the bush is a walking disaster>....when he did the fictional stuff his credibility went away..he should have just played it straight up, interjected his very poignant humour and called it a day..now he is just another spin doctor and you dont know what portion of his stuff is reality and what part is fantasy. my .o2. do you think bush plays tennis? his dad did i believe. think he would hook you on line calls? ed
     
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  16. perfmode

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    The disturbing part was when they had the businessmen talking about how profitable Iraq is right now.
     
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  17. Aonex

    Aonex Semi-Pro

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    Ed, I'm totally with you on this. Michael Moore is a propagandist. He plays with our emotions by showing very graphic images and personal stories to ellict anger. He's also very funny. The movie itself was filled with so many contrived arguments and logical fallacies it's hard to take it seriously. However, that shouldn't take away from the overall message of the film... get Bush out!

    Alan
     
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  18. Cypo

    Cypo Rookie

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    Darn - on the tickle test I was an "Above Average Genius" (unlike the rest of you average ones )

    Michael Moore really has done his credibility a disservice by using manipulative tactics in his later films, but it seems to sell. "Roger and me" probably didn't get the attention Bowling did because it was less manipulative movie.

    But what is most disturbing about him are his half truths. In "Stupid White Men" nothing he says is wrong, but he's spinning his facts, so unfortunately you have to consider what he says pretty carefully and not rely on it to heavily.

    However, given the times we live in, perhaps the ends justify the means - better to fear Bush, if you know what I mean.
     
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  19. Morpheus

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    I think the problem is that in today's world one has to yell really loud and say outrageous things to be heard. Sure, Moore spins things as does Rush, Fox News, ABC, NY Times, and the Washington Post. Everyone has facts that swirl around a concept, and that concept is the story they are trying to sell.

    All that aside, if you find you aren't disturbed by anything the Bush admin is doing, or at least the method in which they are doing it, then you might want to open your mind to the possibility that something may not be right and look at the world with new eyes. This movie will certainly point you in the right direction if you don't know where to look.

    Alan, those graphic images of wounded soldiers and dead Iraqis are something that you just don't see on the evening news. You don't even see the caskets. From a distance, war is sexy and we appear all powerful. Close up, it looks brutal and immoral. I for one would like everyone to see that perspective.
     
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  20. mlee2

    mlee2 Rookie

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    Agreed with Morpheus, show pictures of the dead to show an accurate picture of both sides of the argument.

    But ever thought it might backfire? What if the evening news showed the terrorists' execution videos in full? That would be great fuel for any military to gain support from all perspectives of people.
     
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  21. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    NASCAR dad anyone? Dale Earnhardt Jr told his crew that they should go see Fahrenheit ("it'll be a good bonding experience no matter what your political belief. It's a good thing as an American to go see").

    I don't know about you but I certainly like NASCAR better all of a sudden ;)
     
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  22. Ben42

    Ben42 Semi-Pro

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    I thought Ronald Reagan was the best example of why people in "Hollyweird" shouldn't get mixed up in politics. :)

    (or was the Charlton Heston? It's hard to make up my mind)
     
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  23. Kobble

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    If he was such a do-gooder he wouldn't be trying to make millions off these documentaries. Also, the bottom line of his messages contradict one another. In BFC, his message was the cycle of fear in the american population, now he wants to promote fear to divide the nation concerning Bush, and effectively contribute to his own party's interest. Divide and concquer.
     
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  24. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    You might want to back it up. That is if you actually saw his movie.

    One of his point is on the contrary to say that the Bush administration has been spreading a message of fear amongst the population, relayed by the media but never backed it up with facts or concrete counter-terrorism funding. Moore conclusion being -- if there is no serious budget (/budget increase) allocated to borders protection, that is because there is no evidence of a threat.

    As for making millions out of his movies, what would you like him to do? Send it to the republican party?


     
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  25. tennis-n-sc

    tennis-n-sc Professional

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    Michael Moore is jerk and an opportunist.

    I wonder what the emotions of the American people would be if 6 times a day and during prime time, the images and video of the attack on this country on September 11 were replayed.
    We have allowed ourselvews to become desensitized to what occurred and elevate an idiot like Michael Moore to the status of wonderful messenger of devine truth.

    Have mistakes been made by Mr. Bush? Absolutely. More probably will follow. He made decisions based on what was known at the time and what was suspected. He at least had the balls to act. Be thankful Al Gore was not elected.

    Mr. Kerry's actions after his abrieviated tour in Vietnam were a disgrace to this country and to his commrades in arms. To think this man won his party's nomination is downright shameful.

    We are at war, I am convinced. Whomever becomes commander-in-chief had better accept that and be ready to do whatever it takes to protect this country, even if chaps the rest of the world, even that staunch ally Bermuda.

    I think on the day before the election I will review all that transpired in this country on September 11. I think I will know where to cast my vote the next day. God bless America.
     
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  26. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    I guess you weren't watching TV back then and perhaps you can elaborate on your point a bit.


    At least he has an opinion. :lol: Well, it's obvious you aren't in the target demographic (e.g., open minded, curious types), but perhaps you should see the movie anyway so you can comment on it intelligently.
     
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  27. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    everyone is surely entitled to opinions. uninformed ones are never very cool though. to call someone a jerk because you disagree with his message isnt appropriate. i think supporting a country and president is a good idea until it reaches the point where our good peoples' intelligence gets insulted. a really valid point michael moore makes is that our country and presidents' prime directive, if you will, is to keep the country and it's people safe. the attack on us came under his watch (i realize there were inadequacies in a past watch)....and then....because there arent any decent targets to blow up in afghanistan we bomb the hell out of iraq on two false pretenses..wmd's and al quiada connections to saddam, send our kids over there to be killed or otherwise jammed up, and cause either directly or indirectly a bunch of other innocents to be killed in the process. there's gonna be a million people killed over there because of whatever bush's true motivations may be before this is over..if it is ever over. is saddam evil? sure..by almost everyones standards..thing is..there are a few more saddams out there..are we gonna bomb them all? how about the poor sudanese...we arent jumping to their aid are we.....hmmm? why do you suppose that might be? bah....we really need to get bush out of there before something even worse happens..he's already been responsible for enough deaths and assorted other blunders. bah. ed
     
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  28. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    Point taken but for the record, the only candidate who showed prime time images of 9-11 is Bush in his political ads.

    'Having balls' would have required to fight the war in Afghanistan all the way to the Pakistani border and eliminate Al Qaida and Taliban combatants with the help of our traditional allies (yes, they were there and most of them still are). Tennis-n-sc, don't be fooled. Acting manly and having balls are two different things. Remember the flight suit? The man had his chance to do 'whatever it takes' to serve his country and chose, just like our vice-president (the guy who had 'other priorities' during the Vietnam war) not to put himself in arm's way.

    On the eve of the election, I believe you will do what you do everyday -- put your trust in honesty-challenged talk show hosts and ignore that good people have died for no good reason, miles away from our shores, just because someone in Washington wanted to look manly once in his lifetime.

    As far as I'm concerned, I will certainly remember that morning of 2001 when, from the Brooklyn Heights promenade I saw the World Trade Center fall. That was right after President Bush spent a full month out of town, on vacation.


     
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  29. perfmode

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    Does he look like a guy trying to make a quick buck? No. He is a simple man from Flint, Michigan with strong beliefs and a gift for film making. He makes these documentaries to express his views and opinions.
     
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  30. perfmode

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    Next time, maybe you should follow your own advice.

    Tennis-n-SC: It is best to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.


    You just made yourself look extremely closed-minded and ignorant. You are no better than Britney Spears.
     
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  31. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Ah, that patriot Michael Moore. :lol: Why the personal attacks on Tennis-n-SC? Because he called Moore a jerk and an idiot? Because he doesn't agree "9/11" is a great film, this makes him "closed minded"? If I remember correctly, T-n-SC is a vet with some personal experiences in these matters. I went to see "9/11" last night with two Air Force buddies that fly c17s over to Iraq on a monthly basis. I encouraged them to ask for their military discount at the theatre. You should have seen the look on the clerk's face. Classic! There is nothing new in this film that one shouldn't already know unless they have been sleeping under a rock for the last year. I agree with Aames that this film is basically preaching to the choir. All it will do is further anger the left and the right. The only group it might influence is that pocket of geniuses that gets its political news from MTV and Rolling Stone. Bush has made a gaggle of errors in office and the Dems in congress went right along with him. I won't vote for Bush. I won't vote for Kerry. I'll probably vote for Nader or write in John McCaine. It's a shame we are left to such choices. But this movie and Moore are embarrassments. I am all for speaking your mind and letting your voice be heard but Moore deals in falsities, half-truths and straight-up BS.

    1. The film's portrayal of Bush sitting in the kindergarten class with what is meant to convene a confused/oblivious look on his face. Should Bush have ran out like the house was on fire? The school's principal and local media commented through numerous outlets that they were impressed with his handling of the situation. Was this in the film? Five minutes is too long. Maybe he should have left in two minutes. As we have learned from the 9/11 group, the blunders of our air traffic control system would have negated immediate action anyway.

    2. Moore's "connections" of Bush to the Saudis/bin Laden family/etc. fall prey to the same flawed 1+1=4 logic the Bush administration used in their WMD/bin Laden/Iraq argument. Where's the beef?

    3. Moore's "logic" concerning sons and daughters of congress serving in Iraq. The ratio of congresspersons to sons/daughters serving in Iraq is 268:1. The ratio of households in America to households with a son/daughter serving in Iraq is 349:1. Using his logic, a congressperson is 23% more likely to have a child serving in Iraq than the average American household. Of course, this type of statistical analysis leaves out the fact that we need to include variables such as households/congresspersons having children/without children, etc. Ain't it easy to prove a point with "fuzzy math", as Dubya would say?

    4. Moore quote from the BBC program "Question Time" just days after 9/11:
    "I don't know why we're making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely you'll be struck by lightning than die by an act of terror". Of course, Moore denies these comments, even though they are transcripted, though didn't make it "on air". Not to mention comparisons of Iraqi insurgents to "minutemen" and "revolutionaries" or that "bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty... it's the American way". Whew.

    5. Screendaily.com and 'The Guardian' have reported that 9/11 will be the first documentary to be released theatrically in the Middle East, including 10 screens in Lebanon and 2 in Syria. Hooray!! These sources also report that Front Row, the Middle Eastern distributor of the film is "getting a boost" from organizations related to terrorist group Hezbollah with Front Row sources stating that "(we) can't (go against) these orgs. as they could strongly boycott the film in Lebanon and Syria". And by the way, 'The Guardian' isn't exactly a conservative rag.

    6. Moore has stated that we (Americans) are "possibly the dumbest people on the planet". Hopefully not too dumb to believe Moore's propaganda.

    7. Go to slate.com and read Christopher Hitchens' article on "Unfahrenheit 9/11" for a good laugh. Hitchen's is a self-professed liberal. A drunken, mouthy liberal, but definitely a lib.
    He has a great quote about Euros embracing the precise characterization of Moore's quintessential American (fat,dumb,greedy,obnoxious).

    8. And let's drop this 2000 election junk. Studies by CNN/NYT/Washington Post have shown that even if the Supreme Court had not stopped the recount of heavily Democrat county ballots in FL, Bush still would have won. Drop it. Over. Done. Four years ago. Oh yeah, but what about voter fraud/stopping people from getting to the poles, etc? Never been proven. But did you catch the story on NPR this morning about the Democratic Party in Arizona legally blocking/questioning the validity of the signature campaign to get Nader on the ballot in AZ? The Green Party can't afford to fight the Dems in court so Nader won't be on the ballot. God bless democracy in action. The Dems really are the party of the little guy.

    GO NADER!!!
     
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  32. perfmode

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    You realize that by supporting Nader you are throwing away your vote, right? I hope that you are kidding.
     
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  33. Kobble

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    WOw, is it working or what. If he was not out to make money, why does he ridicule anyone who has not seen the movie? So, people will feel they have to pay ten bucks to achieve the right to have an opinion, or post an argument on message boards. Basically, this guy is saying we should fear the policies of the Bush administration. And he uses music filled and edited propoganda to impose his fear driven message on you. Moore does not choose to do a speech on live television or in public, and simply present his facts in an intelligent non-obnoxious manner. That would be the way to go for a man who wants you to realize his great credibilty, especially, on such an important issue about the direction of the U.S.. I will wait until my local library branch gets a copy.
     
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  34. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Brilliant comment, Perf. I prefer to look at it as if I were throwing away my vote on Bush or Kerry. Agreed Kobble. I plunked down my cash as one of those "things you have to do", like drive to Canada on a dare. I am a college professor and work in research and if it's easy for scientists to manipulate study results, you can bet it's even easier to manipulate film editing. I was thinking that maybe next year, the USA could send "This Is Spinal Tap" or "A Mightly Wind" to Cannes for the documentary category.
     
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  35. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    Hey, Kevin, when you write in for "McCaine", remember to spell his name correctly or it might not count. :wink:

    It is hard to tell if you are pro or con Bush (although you sound as though you don't care for either candidate) because your post was mainly anti-Moore, which is a reasonable position to take given his style. I suppose the thread was originally about the movie so your rebuttal makes sense. Where exactly do you stand on things? (BTW, I didn't perceive that Tennis N Sync had been attacked by more than one poster).
     
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  36. perfmode

    perfmode Hall of Fame

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    "Marches and speeches only reach those who already know about it. This is how we go about it." -Outkast

    Music and movies are sometimes the only ways to reach certain ages groups and audiences.
     
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  37. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Morpheus, it's not a logical reaction considering his "style", it's a logical reaction considering his facts and methodology. And comments towards Tennis-n-SC came from 3 posters concerning his
    "intelligence", "closed-mindedness and ignorance" and "putting his trust in honesty-challenged talk shows". How can a man's intelligence and political philosophy be gleaned from one post? Vets see things through different eyes because we've been there and done that. And to answer your question, I'm not for either candidate. In my adult life, I have tended to vote democratic locally and republican nationally. Bush is a disappointment to me. But was I going to vote for Gore? :lol: :lol: When you can't win your home state, that's saying something. Even Mondale won Minnesota (the only state he won) in the Reagan landslide of 1984. It was a choice between ugly fat girl or uglier fatter girl. Whose side am I on? I'm on our soldiers side. Period. End of story. I grew up an army brat, served, have family and good friends in the military and live in a military town. They are just doing their job and 99.999% of them are doing it very well. They always pay the price of ignorant foreign policy. They never get the respect they deserve. Hollywood was out in droves to support the 9/11 victims. Where is the support for the families of our dead soldiers? The guys making minimum wage and doing their duty? And thanks for the spellcheck, Morph. I never won a spelling bee in school, that's for sure. I'm surprised you didn't notice my "poles" (should have been "polls"-thanks spellcheck!).

    By the way Morpheus, you're not working for one of those American companies that move off-shore for a tax break, are you? :D Happy 4th, everyone!
     
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  38. Phil

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    Normally, in America at least, support is generated through media exposure-to whatever issue or cause. If the Bush administration ALLOWED the filming/photographing of the caskets coming into Dover AF Base, or the media (and the US military propaganda machine) ALLOWED dead us soldiers and marines to be filmed in battle in Iraq, or if ANY of the senior members of the Bush administration even BOTHERED to visit the wards in Bethesda and Walter Reade hospitals full of single, double and triple amputees, then THOSE images would, without a doubt, create more support. But the Bush administration is scared of doing this because it will turn the public completely against the war.

    My only comment on Moore, because 9/11 has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere: yes, he's a propogandist and an entertainer-he manipulates his audience and distorts the truth. But that's NO DIFFERENT than what Limbaugh, Coulter, Fox News and its "news" staff, Evans and Novack, etc., etc. do on the right. Why, then, is the right wing so SCARED of Moore?
     
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  39. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    Kevin,

    1/ saying that Tennis-n-SC was 'putting his trust in honesty-challenged talk shows' can hardly be considered a personal attack. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but I certainly find his post influenced by the rhetoric and views of the Murdoch far right champions.

    2/ Most of the veterans in this country never had to fight a war... Not that it matters -- paying taxes alone should allow you to voice your opinion in a democratic society (something that the Enron and other Bermuda-loving executives might want to meditate). Don't you find it interesting that the two most prominent war veterans holding public office have been smeared by the Bush campaign?

    3/ In my view, MTV and Rolling Stone did their share when it comes to cover the war... I remember seeing pretty original reporting from MTV's Gideon Yago coming out of Iraq, and Evan Wright, who just published 'Generation Kill' (I'm reading it right now, terrific stuff -- he was 'embedded' with First Recon, a Marines elite corp) is writing for Rolling Stone... Believe it or not, that 'pocket of geniuses' are the ones fighting this war for the likes of O'Reilly and Hannity.

     
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  40. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    #40
  41. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    KevinT wrote:

    I read that article before and I was shocked at Hitchen's obvious pro-Bush, pro-war bias. For a much better, and even-handed approach to the subject, see this article by Todd Gitlin:


    http://www.opendemocracy.net/themes/article-3-1988.jsp#
     
    #41
  42. Morpheus

    Morpheus Professional

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    #42
  43. Phil

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    Thanks, Morpheus.
     
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  44. baseliner

    baseliner Professional

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    I guess my opinion doesn't count either. I am a vet of 3 wars (Vietnam, Desert Shield/Storm and current operation Iraqi Freedom) and I, like vast majority of vets loath John Kerry. Fact: Michael Moore is a liar and a propagandist. He admits he hopes the film changes minds to defeat Bush. As far as being an independent, he is a registered Democrat in NY and registered to vote in Michigan where party registration is not required. I say I am an independent because I have voted for Democrats as well as Republicans. Wonder when Moore last voted for a Republican?
    One of the earlier posters mentioned 2 reasons for the war both of which were disproved. 1. WMD's Please go to a google search of earlier statements of Kerry, Kennedy and Clinton. All unequivocally stated Iraq had WMD's. Please note WMD's have been found in Iraq (do search of Sarin gas canister found also Mustard gas) The media outside of Fox has not widely reported the fact. The response has been "Stockpiles" of WMD have not been found. Imperically however WMD have in fact been found in Iraq. 2. No tie between Sadaam Hussein and Al-Qaieda. Read the 9-11 copmmission report. Extensive ties between Hussein and Al-Qaieda. The trumpeted finding was no direct tie between the 9-11 attacks and Hussein. There is a significant difference between the two. If in fact we are fighting a war on terror and there is a direct link between a terror organization (Al-Quaieda) and Saddam Hussein in providing funding and camps for the training of terrorists that makes Saddam H a legitimate target.
    I recognize I am in the minority on this board but I feel compelled to add some facts to the discussion.
     
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  45. magiset

    magiset New User

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    Moore is also a fairly conservative Democrat (the target audience for his film). Remember he just supported W. Clark in the dem prime, a Reagan-era Republican turned Democrat (I think not really).

    What strikes me is how many on this board (not so long ago) believed the 9/11-Iraq pseudo-connection. Thanks to Moore for making obvious falsehoods like this presentable to the peasant classes of me-me-me generation consumers. Beyond this one would be better served reading from alternative news sources like commondreams.org and/or truthout.com.

    Moreover, for the Moore-clones who can almost justify killing innocents in Afgan. (at least for arguement's own sake), but not in Iraq, think a little deeper into the stream of everyone-- revolt toward peace.
     
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  46. Phil

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    Okay, this is a TENNIS forum, but you DO deserve a response to your comments. I think your opinion counts, but that doesn't mean that it's correct. I don't think you added any more "facts" to the discussion; only the same standard arguments and half truths that have been thrown around for many months-kind of like what Moore does. Citing Fox News is sort of like a liberal using Michael Moore as his source of information.

    The sarin gas canister-a single shell, was probably well over 14 years old; we KNEW they had some gas-but the US under Reagan was SILENT when it was used to kill hundreds of Kurds in '88. And they NEVER used gas against the US, in either Desert Storm or OIF. Iraq was not a threat to the US. They were an "easy" target, Iran, Syria, N. Korea and Pakistan-all THREATS to the US and the international community-are not easy targets for various reasons. Greed, ideological blindness and revenge for Poppy's failure to dispose of Saddam the first time around, play more of a part in the US going into Iraq than "WMD" (proved to be a falsehood), which was changed to "Sponsor of Terror/9-11" (another falsehood, or at the very least, a gross exaggeration), and THEN changed to something called "Iraqi Freedom" (Freedom from Saddam, but now a prison of civil war and instability, courtesy of the domestic and foreign terrorists unleashed by the war).

    Who cares what party Moore is registered with? You don't think Bush, Cheney and Co. have "lied" to the US public about much more important issues-like, say, the reasons for going into Iraq? What a joke. But the American public is so gullible that they'll swallow anything whole if it's spun well. Of COURSE Saddam had contact with known terror groups-probably many of them, but so does Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Pakistan (you know, the country that CREATED the Taliban) and N. Korea. Fact is, Saddam hated the Islamists and he probably did not go far beyond talking to them. He did not provide funding to train al Qa'eda. The administration has SQUANDERED resources in Iraq that should have been used for rooting out and killing terrorists, in Afghanistan. Now that Iraq is wide open, it's NOW a magnet for terrorists like al Zarqawi, so I guess the lie became a self-fulfilling prophecy and the US has no choice now but to stay in Iraq, indefinitely.

    Taking Iraq was not, in itself wrong. There are many strategic reasons for holding such a central geographical region, and, getting rid of a tyrant in the process. What was wrong was basing the action on false, fantasy premises, and lying to the American people and the entire international community. Not everyone bought those lies, though. I've seen nothing but bumbling, stumbling incompetence from the administration since the war "ended". No real planning...only reaction and half-measure solutions to events that they cannot control or stop. And, as part of that, the fact that they didn't send in special teams to destroy the thousands of conventional weapons caches, which are now being used to kill Americans and Iraqis, is one of the MOST criminally negligent non-actions of this sad and pathetic situation. My question still stands: Why are Bush supporters so AFRAID of Michael Moore, especially if he's just another "lier"?
     
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  47. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    Baseliner,

    sounds like you're having a Fox News overdose... I only hope you won't vote for that independent candidate of yours in november ;)
     
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  48. Morpheus

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    Nice rebuttal, Phil.

    I've wondered to what extent the war on Iraq was driven by the Bush administration's realization that they needed a political "win" against terror, and since Bin Laden was a ghost with an amorphous army, they chose Sadam and Iraq--a stationary target with a highly prominent bad guy as boss. If you can't win the real war, why not find a war we can win, then shift everyone's attention away from the real problem.

    Problem is, we may not be able to win this war. Good thing the economy is picking up in time for the election. Should at least make it a close race.
     
    #48
  49. Chopin

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    Nice post Phil
     
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  50. david aames

    david aames Professional

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    They had a win in Afghanistan. They let it slip away because it was never about the 'war on terror'.

     
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