Favorite 2nd serve?

[tennisdad65]

Which of these is your bread and butter 2nd serve?
Twist
Topspin
Topspin-Slice
Slice
Flat

mine is the Topspin, though I am starting to put in more twist serves every now and then.. If I am playing a lefty then I resort to a Topspin-slice.

 

[J011yroger]

The 2nd serve of Doom.

I am known for it.

J

 

[sh@de]

Twist or slice kick. Both of them I loooove.

 

[Nanshiki]

Twist = topspin-slice, fwiw.

I like twist... when I can get enough spin on it to force it in. If not, I have to stick with more topspin to stay in.

I love it when a massive kick serve hits the tape or a nail on a clay court and flies over the returner...lol

 

[aimr75]

my favourite is the one that stays in the box

 

[imalil2gangsta4u]

my favourite is the one that stays in the box

At my current level, this is definitely my answer as well.

 

[BoomerangX]

topspin=kick?

 

[dataseviltwin]

Elena Dementieva's...

She has such great footwork on it!!!

 

[sh@de]

Twist = topspin-slice, fwiw.

I like twist... when I can get enough spin on it to force it in. If not, I have to stick with more topspin to stay in.

I love it when a massive kick serve hits the tape or a nail on a clay court and flies over the returner...lol

No... topspin slice bounces left. Twist bounces right. (for a righty this is). Isn't it?

 

[Nanshiki]

No... a twist serve is a topspin serve with slice to it. Or a slice serve with topspin to it, depending on which way you look at it. In order words, diagonal spin, which causes it to stay in the box as well as bounce to the right/left depending on which arm you're using.

 

[sh@de]

No... and yes. Twist = topspin + slice, but topspin slice =/= twist. Twist breaks to the right, topspin + slice breaks to the left. How are they the same?

 

[BorisBeckerFan]

I did not see the option for an ace.

 

[animagriever]

I did not see the option for an ace.

The poll's asking what's your favourite/favorite method of achieving that second serve ace!:twisted:

 

[BorisBeckerFan]

The poll's asking what's your favourite/favorite method of achieving that second serve ace!:twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JYHBFkDAbs

I guess that's other.

 

[J011yroger]

No... topspin slice bounces left. Twist bounces right. (for a righty this is). Isn't it?

No... and yes. Twist = topspin + slice, but topspin slice =/= twist. Twist breaks to the right, topspin + slice breaks to the left. How are they the same?

You are correct, they are very different serves, hit differently, and they react differently when they hit the court.

J

 

[sh@de]

Ahh thanks jolly. I thought it was weird... I was sure I was hitting different serves! .

 

[tennisdad65]

No... a twist serve is a topspin serve with slice to it. Or a slice serve with topspin to it, depending on which way you look at it. In order words, diagonal spin, which causes it to stay in the box as well as bounce to the right/left depending on which arm you're using.

hmmm? .. twist serve is completely different than a topspin-slice.. toss location, swingpath, ball trajectory (especially after the bounce) etc. are all different.

 

[LeeD]

Me, it's pure topspin, giving a true vertical bounce.]
Then the option of twist or slice added gives it a new different look, in pace, bounce, and location.
Lefty top bounces straight. Lefty topslice goes servers right. Lefty twist flies right and bounces left.

 

[acehole]

my go to is pure topspin. i never seem to miss it and man does it leap! i use others if they get used to it.

 

[tennisdad65]

my go to is pure topspin. i never seem to miss it and man does it leap! i use others if they get used to it.

I like the topspin for the same reasons.

I find that aggressive returners (4.5-5.0) who can crush my twist 2nd serve have a hard time doing the same to my topspin 2nd serve. or maybe my twist sucks compared to my topspin

 

[BullDogTennis]

Twist outwide on the ad side
Twist outwide on the deuce side to jam em
or pure kick down the middle on either side

 

[Nanshiki]

Ahh thanks jolly. I thought it was weird... I was sure I was hitting different serves! .

It's all semantics.

They're hit differently and they react different, but it's all just different flavors of the same kind of serve. They only real difference is that they have the spin axis at difference angles.

A twist serve (in my book) is any spin serve that is somewhere between topspin and slice, usually closer to topspin on the second serve. A 'topspin slice' would be a twist serve closer to slice. But it's still the same kind of serve, regardless of how each specific version is hit... changing the ball toss or the swing pattern doesn't mean jack if you're talking about the same concept. And the reaction on bounce will be different too, but that's because of the angle of the spin axis on the ball (and or the amount of spin generated), NOT because of some arbitrary label you've put on the ball.

The closer the spin axis is to 'slice' (ideally horizontal but that's not going to happen...), the more aggressive the shot, and the more lateral the bounce. The closer to topspin (vertical, or straight up), the more reliable the serve becomes, and the more vertical the bounce becomes.

It's all really just settings on dial, so to speak... but where you decide to call one shot topspin slice, one twist, and one shot slice topspin is totally irrelevant since everyone is going to have a different definition.

 

[LeeD]

Sure, all forehands are the same, all backhands also...
And every first serve is like every other first serve...
Whatever, you obviously don't employ the DIFFERENT second spin serves with any real forethought and effect....

 

[Nanshiki]

Sure, all forehands are the same, all backhands also...
And every first serve is like every other first serve...
Whatever, you obviously don't employ the DIFFERENT second spin serves with any real forethought and effect....

No, if you think any of that is true you're an idiot.

Forehand, backhand, first serve, second serve are all extremely general terms for a very wide range of shots.

What I'm talking about is more like the difference between a topspin forehand done with a semi-western grip and a full-western grip; or a second serve done with a continental grip versus an eastern backhand grip. They're essentially the same shots done slightly different for a number of varying reasons.


How about this... a topspin slice is a twist serve, but not all twist serves are topspin slice.

 

[Nellie]

American Twist - toss overhead and to the backhand side (Kicks up and to server's forehand side - Axis of rotation for righty = \)

Topspin - hit overhead - kicks up. (Axis of rotation for righty = --)

Topspin slice - toss overhead and to the forehand side (Kicks up and to server's backhand side, Axis of rotation for righty = /)

I (a righty) have been working hard to develop a hard, slice that is fast, and when hit to the righty's backhand, breaks hard into the returners body. I have been using this as a first serve is doubles too.

 

[Nanshiki]

All spin serves for a righty will have an axis of spin between --- (topspin) and | (slice) (although technically there's no way to hit a perfect slice, nor a perfect topspin shot); furthermore, all 'twist' serves will have spin axis that tilts to the left (\). But the direction of spin will be point to the right / (looking from behind the ball) to varying degrees depending on the type of serve hit...closer to vertical for slice and closer to horizontal for topspin.

The opposite is true for lefties. What you've just described as a topspin slice is physically impossible for a righty serve (well, it can be done but it would be useless as a serve)... unless you're using a high slice forehand for a serve, which I have my doubts about (especially on a second serve).

 

[Arzon]

for some reason, the only serve i can hit out of these (besides flat) is a self taught topspin-slice.

 

[J011yroger]

How about this... a topspin slice is a twist serve, but not all twist serves are topspin slice.

They are different serves, one the toss is to your right, and you come over the top, the other the toss is to your left and you come up the back. (I reserve the right to e-slap anyone who says "Not if you are left handed")

J

 

[Nanshiki]

From my experience, those are just two ways to do the same thing (which is putting diagonal spin on the ball). Albeit, the spin will be slightly different; but it's essentially the same kind of serve. You have to change the toss and technique to change the angle of spin.

FWIW, it's also possible to hit a slice serve in more than one way... ie, you can toss it above you can slice the back of it, or you can toss it wide and slice the side of it; but either one will essentially be a slice serve. One will tend to go DTL, and the other will tend to go wide.

 

[NickC]

A kick serve.

 

[J011yroger]

From my experience, those are just two ways to do the same thing (which is putting diagonal spin on the ball). Albeit, the spin will be slightly different; but it's essentially the same kind of serve. You have to change the toss and technique to change the angle of spin.

FWIW, it's also possible to hit a slice serve in more than one way... ie, you can toss it above you can slice the back of it, or you can toss it wide and slice the side of it; but either one will essentially be a slice serve. One will tend to go DTL, and the other will tend to go wide.

Is it possible for you to post a vid of what you are doing? All serves have some topspin and some sidespin on them. Not all serves are the same.

I will put up a vid of me hitting a ts/slice serve, and a twist serve, so all can see what I am talking about.

I agree about different ways of hitting a slice serve, but you should be able to locate either one T or Wide, one should be the off speed can opener slice, the other should be a harder power slider.

J

 

[Nanshiki]

Is it possible for you to post a vid of what you are doing? All serves have some topspin and some sidespin on them. Not all serves are the same.

I prefer not to videotape myself playing as I don't think I could handle the ridicule that everyone (who isn't a famous pro or OVER NINE THOUSAND) who posts videos on the internet is subject to on this forum.

For what it's worth, I wasn't suggesting that all serves are the same, and my whole argument was simply against the arbitrary naming system used to describe the various types of kick/twist serves. Which is to say that I personally believe that a twist serve is just a different variation on what is being labeled a 'topspin slice,' and they're all just types of kick serve (any serve with a large amount of spin including topspin, for the purpose of increasing the margin of error as well as causing an erratic bounce for offensive purposes).

I will put up a vid of me hitting a ts/slice serve, and a twist serve, so all can see what I am talking about.

I understand what you mean regarding your description of the technique, but it sounds like you're describing one serve with more slice (the first technique) and one serve with more topspin (the second technique). They would react differently when they bounce, but that's more about the amount and direction of the spin than the type of serve.

I agree about different ways of hitting a slice serve, but you should be able to locate either one T or Wide, one should be the off speed can opener slice, the other should be a harder power slider.

J

Well, that may be more from the fact that the slice serve is my weakest serve, and the one I practice the least. FWIW, even a flat serve is going to have a lot of spin on it... often topspin, slice, or both, but simply not enough to make it visibly noticeable (although that varies greatly).

 

[sh@de]

Well Nanshiki, going by your logic, OF COURSE all serves are the same. They are all topspin + slice. No serve has PURE topspin or PURE slice or has no spin at all i.e. a pure flat serve. But that's not the correct way to approach it. The shots have different trajectories, and yield different results, so even if they are hit in a similar fashion, that does not make them the same shot. It's like comparing a flat forehand and a topspin forehand. Does the flat forehand have topspin? Yeah, just very little compared to the topspin forehand. So both shots are hit the same right? Low to high, just to a different extent, as is with the serves. Does that mean they're the same shot? No. One doesn't have much net clearance and doesn't drop sharply after crossing the net, and doesn't jump forwards and upwards as much as the other...

 

[Nanshiki]

Well Nanshiki, going by your logic, OF COURSE all serves are the same.

No they aren't.

They are all topspin + slice. No serve has PURE topspin or PURE slice or has no spin at all i.e. a pure flat serve.

I already said that.

But that's not the correct way to approach it. The shots have different trajectories, and yield different results, so even if they are hit in a similar fashion, that does not make them the same shot. It's like comparing a flat forehand and a topspin forehand.

No it isn't.

Does the flat forehand have topspin? Yeah, just very little compared to the topspin forehand. So both shots are hit the same right? Low to high, just to a different extent, as is with the serves.

That's not how it is at all. What we're discussing is the difference between a spin serve with the spin axis at maybe 60 degrees instead of 40 degrees (whereas topspin would be 90 and slice would be 0). It's a minute difference numerically, and has a slight (but noticeable) difference in terms of actual tennis. The ball will bounce in a different fashion and take a slightly different path through the air.


But two compare two forehands that are done in completely different ways to get completely different results, for two completely different reasons (ie, offense for flat and defense for topspin) is on a completely different level than the difference between two varieties of kick serve.

 

[J011yroger]

Is it possible for you to post a vid of what you are doing? All serves have some topspin and some sidespin on them. Not all serves are the same.

I will put up a vid of me hitting a ts/slice serve, and a twist serve, so all can see what I am talking about.

I agree about different ways of hitting a slice serve, but you should be able to locate either one T or Wide, one should be the off speed can opener slice, the other should be a harder power slider.

J

I prefer not to videotape myself playing as I don't think I could handle the ridicule that everyone (who isn't a famous pro or OVER NINE THOUSAND) who posts videos on the internet is subject to on this forum.

Here is my vid.

http://vimeo.com/4678697

First one is a flat serve.

Next 6 are Topspin/Slice.

Next 4 are Twist.

Last 3 are straight Topspin.

My personal serves are not the best example of classic definitions because even my spin serves have a lot of MPH on them, and I don't really go for the big air on the topspin, or twist unless I am on dirt, or a gritty hard court, prefering to go for a bit more MPH, and side break. Also I hit the twist breaking to my right down the T in the deuce court, but it doesn't show well on video, because my body is in the way.

J

 

[Nanshiki]

Honestly I can't really tell the difference between the topspin/slice and twist... although the flat one and pure topspin serves are pretty distinct.

In terms of my serves, I generally only distinguish between kick with less topspin (and often more power) for aggressive first serves, kick with more topspin and more spin than drive for second, 'flat' (rarely use it in a match) and semi-flat (some spin but primarily drive)... and once in a while, slice, although I think those tend to have a bit of topspin on them.

Although I'm pretty much hitting through the ball on every serve, although somewhat less so on second (because of the need for more spin and controlling depth).

I might get around to making a video...some day.

 

[SeekHeart]

I hit topspin or topspin slice, I have no idea how to get the ball to twist.

 

[sh@de]

Honestly I can't really tell the difference between the topspin/slice and twist... although the flat one and pure topspin serves are pretty distinct.

In terms of my serves, I generally only distinguish between kick with less topspin (and often more power) for aggressive first serves, kick with more topspin and more spin than drive for second, 'flat' (rarely use it in a match) and semi-flat (some spin but primarily drive)... and once in a while, slice, although I think those tend to have a bit of topspin on them.

Although I'm pretty much hitting through the ball on every serve, although somewhat less so on second (because of the need for more spin and controlling depth).

I might get around to making a video...some day.

Hey Nanshiki, with your style of serving i.e. more kick or less kick, do you have the twist or the slice then? And what level do you play at? Slice and twist are really useful serves for my level...

 

[Nanshiki]

I can do a slice serve but it just acts like a flat serve (at least it does from my POV... I've had someone told me it curved in flight). And I'm still not sure exactly what people mean by twist serve (versus 'topspin slice') but I can probably do it (I've found probably 10 different ways to hit spin serves in my Quest for the Holy Second Serve... some work better than others).

FWIW I think I serve in the 100 MPH range... possibly more, possibly less. And I play around the 4.0 range (although I could probably convince someone I was a 5.0 if I did enough creative editing of my practice sessions...).

 

[tennisdad65]

And I'm still not sure exactly what people mean by twist serve (versus 'topspin slice') ..

twist.. toss behind your head (11 OClock). Your swing path can be almost parallel to the baseline (safe twist) or angled for a more aggressive twist. (Fed and Novak)

topspin-slice.. toss to your right (1 OClock) and more into the court. your swingpath is a lot closer to the intended ball path than for a twist. (Nadal sometimes)

topspin.. toss directly overhead (12 OClock) and swingpath is in direction of intended path till contact. Follow through is naturally outwards.. (Nadal a lot)

 

[Nanshiki]

Those all just sound like different ways to hit kick serves to me. Some more aggressive than others. And I can do all of them.

 

[sh@de]

The fundamental difference between twist and slice kick is that they have different bounces. Assuming you're a right, a slice curves to the left, and bounces towards the left. A twist curves to the left, then bounces to the right. The spins on both serves are the same in that they're both a combination of topspin and slice, but the axis of rotation on the serves are different, hence the different bounces. Nanshiki, can you hit a serve that curves to your left, and then bounces to your right?

 

[Ballinbob]

I use a topspin serve for my 2nd serve usually and a topspin-slice as my first serve

 

[Nanshiki]

The fundamental difference between twist and slice kick is that they have different bounces. Assuming you're a right, a slice curves to the left, and bounces towards the left. A twist curves to the left, then bounces to the right. The spins on both serves are the same in that they're both a combination of topspin and slice, but the axis of rotation on the serves are different, hence the different bounces. Nanshiki, can you hit a serve that curves to your left, and then bounces to your right?

The more a serve curves to the left, the less likely it's going to bounce to the right...

I've yet to actually seen a serve that just JUMPS to the right after curving left due to slice or topspin, except for maybe a mishit serve that does something crazy after it lands. And generally the more pace the serve has, the less effect spin will have on it.

 

[ReopeningWed]

I wish I could hit a twist every time ):

 

[sh@de]

The more a serve curves to the left, the less likely it's going to bounce to the right...

I've yet to actually seen a serve that just JUMPS to the right after curving left due to slice or topspin, except for maybe a mishit serve that does something crazy after it lands. And generally the more pace the serve has, the less effect spin will have on it.

Are you sure? How about this then...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksdP_cocKWA&feature=channel

 

[tennisdad65]

I've yet to actually seen a serve that just JUMPS to the right after curving left due to slice or topspin, except for maybe a mishit serve that does something crazy after it lands. .

you have not seen 5.0+ twist serves then .

 

[halalula1234]

under hand!

 

[tennisdad65]

With almost 100 poll entries, I am surprised that topspin-slice (30%) is more popular than topspin (24%). Topspin-slice is almost as high as twist (34%).

my initial guess was twist - 40%, topspin 30%, topspin-slice 20%, rest -10%