Fed would never win wimbledon

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by rosenstar, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. rosenstar

    rosenstar Professional

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    #1
  2. statto

    statto Professional

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    Interesting that he felt his natural surface was clay.
     
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  3. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    Have you ever seen Federer move on clay? Obviously it's a surface he's extremely comfortable on. It doesn't suit his game as much as faster surfaces due to his playing style, though.

    Fed is awesome on fast clay, though. Hamburg, and now Madrid MS.
     
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  4. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Fed is among the best clay courters in history. Probably in the Top 5 all time.
     
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  5. statto

    statto Professional

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    Is Hamburg clay that fast? I thought it was pretty slow.

    I can think of more than five off the top of my head who are way ahead of Federer on clay.
     
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  6. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    Hamburg clay is slow.
     
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  7. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    dont fool yourself!
     
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  8. ksbh

    ksbh Banned

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    Why is this such a surprise?

    For over 3 years, most Federer fans on this forum gave Nadal no chance of winning Wimbledion or a hard court slam. He went on to achieve both, beating no other than Federer in the final!

    People routinely get their bearings wrong when it comes to predictions.
     
    #8
  9. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Federer isnt even top 15 all time on clay.
     
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  10. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    My bad about Hamburg.

    It's slow, but VERY low-bouncing. What I was trying to say is that Federer plays great on clay which well-suited to his game: either fast, or low-bouncing will do :)

    Apologies.

    OK, name 15 players who will be favorites against a prime Federer on clay in a best of 5 match.
     
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  11. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    12 off hand..

    Bjorn Borg
    Rafael Nadal
    Thomas Muster
    Mats Wilander
    Ivan Lendl
    Ken Rosewall
    Gustavo Kuerten
    Sergi Brugera
    Juan Carlos Ferrero
    Von Cramm
    Ille Nastase
    Panatta
     
    #11
  12. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    Ferrero? LOL! That's a stretch.
     
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  13. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    why is muster constantly rated higher over Federer?

    Muster: 1 FO, 1 FO SF, and 1 FO QF , 6 clay masters
    Fed: 1 FO, 3 FO Finals, 1 FO SF, 5 clay masters

    I remember that muster won some 30+ clay titles, mostly mickey mouse ones. Records wise, Fed clearly trumps muster.

    Ferrero obviously does not rate higher over Fed.
     
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  14. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    Federer would easily fall within the top 10 clay courters in the open era. It gets very hard comparing any accomplishments to pre-open era players.
     
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  15. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

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    Nah.... fail.
     
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  16. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Huh sorry I am basing on actually watching the two play on clay. Watch Muster from 95-96 in his prime. I favor him over a prime Federer. YOu said in Fed's prime. So I assume the other player is at their best as well.
     
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  17. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Ferrero at his best was one hell of a clay courter 2 semis, 1 final and 1 french open and 4 master series had he not been injuried and his career ruined who knows. Ferrero had a better suited game for clay in my opinion.
     
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  18. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    I don't know about Muster's prime Vs Fed's prime (btw, i never mentioned anything about prime Fed in my post). Even hypothetically speaking, if muster's prime existed for all of 1 year, how does that make him a clay court great? great clay court talent, who could beat fed in his prime may be, but surely not a great. He surely has not achieved as much as Fed...

    Surely you cannot include someone in the list if their prime exists for a short span of time, now can you?
     
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  19. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    The person said 15 players vs a prime Fed I named 12 who I would favorite over Fed. Over Musters 2 peak yeras he won 4 clay Master series and French Open title and had 110+ wins on the surfaces and only 5 losses if I recall correctly.
     
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  20. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    People forget how amazing of a clay player Federer is.

    Before 2003, his biggest achievements came on clay.

    Heck, he beat Kuerten en-route to his first MS title in Hamburg on clay.

    His lateral movement on clay is fantastic, yes.
     
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  21. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    ok, i see now. you were responding to IvanAndrevich's post. makes sense. thanks.
     
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  22. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    As opposed to Fed, who'd only have 5 FO titles now if it wasn't for the GOAT on clay, or one of them, being in his way at every turn. I'm sure Fed would have more FO titles if he'd peaked when guys like Martin Verkerk were making FO finals.
     
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  23. statto

    statto Professional

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    I would add to that list Coria, Vilas and Moya.

    How anyone can think Fed is one of the best five clay-courters of all time is beyond me. It's like saying Nadal is one of the best five grass-courters (because he'd have won three Wimbledon's in a row if it hadn't been for the possible GOAT on grass).
     
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  24. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

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    Bjorn Borg- yah
    Rafael Nadal- yes sir
    Thomas Muster- no, although he is a clay court specialist, most of his clay court tournament wins were smaller tournies, and almost all of his masters wins were against players who weren't great on clay.
    Mats Wilander- no. wilander was good though.
    Ivan Lendl- no, lendl was good on all surfaces, but not better than federer on any of them. it would be a closer match up on hard.
    Ken Rosewall- no, if rosewall is up here, then laver should be here too since they were about even in clay slams. but this is a hard topic since it's open vs pre-open era.
    Gustavo Kuerten- yes, kuerten is a monster.
    Sergi Brugera- no, just because someone only had success on clay, doesn't mean he can automaticlly be dubbed as better than fed on clay. he had less success than muster.
    Juan Carlos Ferrero- no, although ferrero has a beautiful game on clay, he goes for winners a bit too much, record shows, fed usually loses to grinders.
    Von Cramm- no.
    Ille Nastase- no, or in any other surface, unless Nasty gets in fed's head and fed folds.
    Panatta- no

    you should have included guillermo coria and guillermo vilas instead of panatta nastase, ferrero, brugera and rosewall.
    coria was a mental midget, i admit, but when he is on he has a more diverse game than nadal on clay with more court sense and touch.
     
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  25. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

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    Coria lost both of the two matches he played against Federer on clay.
     
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  26. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    Coria? Are you freaking kidding me? Fed schooled Coria on Clay.

    Moya? Sorry, not better than Federer.

    I'm not saying he's top 5 of all time, but he's definitely better than some of the names being mentioned.
     
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  27. flyinghippos101

    flyinghippos101 Legend

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    Fed easily fits top 15. Top 10 might be pushing it. But to say Ferrero, Coria and Moya is better on clay is ridiculous
     
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  28. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    you forget that fed had the probably best clay player since borg on the other side of the court. his tennis on clay is staggering. he reached 4 finals IN A ROW! get of with that weak era ****, in the mid 90s clay tennis competition was not stronger than.

    the only two clear players above him are nadal and borg. any others? I seriously doubt it.

    and don't come with those pre-open-era players. no one knows about them and hardly anyone has seen them playing in their prime.
     
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  29. statto

    statto Professional

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    As I posted, you could say the exact same thing about Nadal and grass - three Wimbledon finals in a row and opposite one of, if not the best grass-courters ever.

    With that reasoning on grass you'd put Fed, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Becker, Edberg and Laver, but no-one else. Is Nadal really one of the best ten grass-courters of the open era? I don't think so.
     
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  30. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    Federer's span of success on clay is longer than Nadal's span of success on grass. It's not the same thing, as of now, Fed has been successful on clay for a longer period than Nadal on grass.
     
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  31. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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  32. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    That's not very well reasoned. Lendl was far more consistent and dominant on clay than Kuerten.

    And I agree that Laver should be on this list too. Both he and Rosewall are among the more accomplished clay courters ever. More than Federer for sure.
     
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  33. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    That's a good list. Also more successful on clay than Federer was Courier. I guess it could be argued that Fed's better - I'm not sure.

    Also let's not forget Nastase. More inconsistent than Fed on clay for sure, but he has his RG and numerous other clay court accomplishments as well.
     
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  34. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Borg
    Vilas
    Nadal
    Lacoste
    Cochet
    Courier
    Kuerten
    Wilander
    Lendl
    Rosewall
    Laver

    Well here are 11 I would pick for sure. Some others that are debateable but that I am not as sure of would be:

    Santana
    Pietrangeli
    Muster
    Ferrero
    Drobny
    Borotra
    Gimeno

    So on 2nd thought maybe top 15 all time on clay but not top 10.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2009
    #34
  35. Karlovic's Sunglasses

    Karlovic's Sunglasses Banned

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    Federer sucks on grass.
     
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  36. aleexxxxx

    aleexxxxx Rookie

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    Fed is most definately top 10 clay of all time. You can argue top 5. Anyone who says otherwise is just a straight fedhater. Or nadal fan.
     
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  37. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Would have to disagree with some of those. Bruguera, a big no. I know he has an extra French but still no. Ferrero is iffy. Von Cramm definitely not. Panatta definitely not too, he was a bad matchup for Borg but he definitely isnt better or more accomplished on clay than Federer. Nastase no, way too inconsistent and missed out on winning some more big clay titles to players he could have/should have beaten.
     
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  38. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    ROTFL at Coria and Moya being better than Federer on clay. Completely ridiculous, and I am one of the biggest Federer haters on TW. Even in their primes those guys were getting schooled by Federer on every surface including clay. Moya has only made it past the French Open quarters once and only won 2 Masters, and Coria in his short prime lost to Verkerk, Gaudio, and pre prime Davydenko at the French.
     
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  39. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    I agree with your first point, Federer is definitely Top 10 clay of all time.

    But wouldn't Nadal fans want to hype Fed up as a clay courter? Because Nadal's biggest achievements are against Fed.
     
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  40. Chadwixx

    Chadwixx Banned

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    In all fairness to muster someone mashed his knees between two car bumpers the day before his hardcourt final with lendl. He was getting very strong up to that point.

    Ive also never seen a guy work that hard after the injury. The guy was an animal and could wear out fed on a slow enough court. Many said he wouldnt walk again, yet came back. Check out some pictures of his wheelchair while training, pretty amazing.
     
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  41. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Muster ruled!! one of my all time favourites:) he would do exactly the same to Fed as Nadal does, big lefty topspin down the backhand side, running down every ball and fighting as his life depended on it.. Muster could run forever and not get tired, he was a beast with insane mental strenght..
    He would have won many more titles if it wasnt for that horrible accident.
     
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  42. dropshot winner

    dropshot winner Hall of Fame

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    No, Muster doesn't have Nadal's forehand.

    Verdasco's forehand is the most similiar to Nadal, it's just a bit flatter but has as much spin as Muster's, but more pace.
    And yet Verdasco can't do to Federer what Nadal does. That's mostly because Verdasco (and to lesser extent Muster, Bruguera etc) don't move as well as Nadal does, and because their shots don't bounce up as high and fast, which allows Federer to run around the backhand, or to turn defense into offense more consistently with the backhand.

    Many think that Nadal beats Federer only with the forehand, but that's not the truth.
    It's mostly Nadal's movement that allows him to play the forehand out of nearly impossible situations. Borg is the only one with comparable movement.

    Federer's best on clay is top5, his results aren't but that's a different story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2009
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  43. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    Fed is not even in the same league as Nadal on clay. If Fed is top 5 on clay, he would have done much better against Nadal on clay. Federer would be lucky to be top 10 on clay.
     
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  44. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    fed's not in the top 5 on clay for sure, anywhere in b/w 7-8 and 13-14 I'd say ...
     
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  45. 8pNADAL

    8pNADAL Banned

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    i can't believe federer is a top 5 claycourter alltime, when he only managed to win 4 games in the 08 final
     
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  46. ChrisCrocker

    ChrisCrocker Rookie

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    That's top 5 on my list for the open era.
    borg
    nadal
    Lendl
    Wilander
    Kuerten
     
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  47. ahile02

    ahile02 Rookie

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    You're joking, right?
     
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  48. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    How is Brugera a worse clay courter than Muster and Coria? He won fewer tittles overall but 2 wins from 3 French Open finals automatically puts him at least equal with Muster and light years ahead of Coria.

    Vilas is definitely a better clay court player than Fed imo.
     
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  49. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    Top 10 maybe but certainly not top 5.

    He is definitely not better or more successful on clay than Vilas, Borg, Nadal, Guga, Rosewall, Lendl
     
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  50. mental midget

    mental midget Professional

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    restricting this to modern era players (no borg-wooden racket, different game) the only guy i'm giving much of a chance against roger playing at his best, would be kuerten: power, speed, big serve. but he loses more than he wins imo.

    the rest of these guys-seriously, you've seen federer when he's on, right? how anyone who's seen all these guys perform, and not recognize that an in-form federer is just a different animal altogether, is not being honest with themselves.
     
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