Federer must make the switch or he will descend even more

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by The Baseline, Jul 8, 2010.

  1. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    I'm sure you said this in 2010 and 2011, and here we are in 2012, and who is #1. FYI, he would have to lose 10000 points to fall out of the top 10, it's not gonna happen in 2013.
     
  2. lendlmac

    lendlmac Rookie

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    This is andy murrays us open to win. All the big hitters in the game can ocer power finesse all day
     
  3. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Hall of Fame

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    No way he's going to change his racquet at this point in time. Maybe he'll do in the senior's tour 5 - 10 years down the road but not now or 2013 or 2016.
     
  4. PCXL-Fan

    PCXL-Fan Hall of Fame

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    Anyone i have a question....

    How many top 10 pro players in the past 15 years have been helped by switching to a larger frame?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  5. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Federer was blown away by his own mind. He was keeping a stupid strategy, like the one he used against Soderling in RG'10 or against JMDP in USO'09.

    Thats nothing to do with the size of his racquet head.
     
  6. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Pete Sampras changed his racket so why not Federer ? before it is too late, i mean. so it isn't as far fetched of idea as some folks here think.
     
  7. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Hall of Fame

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    Pistol changed racquets after coming out of retirement playing exhibitions.
     
  8. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    And Federer already changed, no? In the past he was using an 85.
     
  9. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    None I can think of.

    Agassi did switch to a SMALLER racquet late in his career though and won a lot of matches with it.
     
  10. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    He can not descend less.
     
  11. ENJOY TENNIS

    ENJOY TENNIS Rookie

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    At Tennis.com, Jim Courier suggests that a larger frame help him and Federer should try. People, see the interview, worth a try.
     
  12. tt2003

    tt2003 New User

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    lendl use 75, pete uses 85, have you ever played small head racquet?
     
  13. ace0001a

    ace0001a Semi-Pro

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    Agassi went to a 102" Prestige mold for a bit during the Liquidmetal line, in comparison to his usual 107" Radical OS mold, is a minor size difference if you hold the racquets together. Also around that time frame, he used a 102" Liquidmetal Instinct, again not much of a size difference when you hold a 102 and 107 next to each other. The last slam he won was the 2003 Australian Open where he was using his usual Radical OS.

    As for what Jim Courier said, well he was always a PS85 user and only recently switched to the larger head Donnay racquet, so it's not like he's talking out of butt...and I recall Sampras recently saying he shouldn't have been so stubborn about his racquet.

    My take on this: Federer doesn't need to change racquet size at the moment...maybe later on in his career say if he plays into his mid 30s...maybe doing what Sampras did and go to something like a Blade 98.
     
  14. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    So 5 sq. in. is not much difference for Agassi yet people here are claiming that 5 sq. in. will make a huge difference for Federer?

    Yes, he should have been so stubborn because he won 14 Slams with it and was #1 for 6 straight years. You don't fix what ain't broken. If he had switched to a bigger racquet he just may have never won another Slam or dropped in the rankings. Ask Davydenko, Ljubicic or Ferrero how switching racquets worked out for them.

    Sampras doesn't play on the tour anymore. It doesn't matter if he wins or not. He gets paid just for showing up. He can now play with whatever he wants because he now plays mainly for fun. He's not as serious about winning like he was when he was collecting Slam trophies.
     
  15. lawrencejin

    lawrencejin Rookie

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    I think many people overestimate how much difference 5 square inches would make on reducing Federer's shanks or mishits. Perhaps they mistakenly think that extra 5 square inches in head size translates to extra 5 square inches in the sweet-pot?

    How big is the sweet-spot on Federer's 90 square inch racket? Let's just say 25 square inches. Assuming that the sweet-spot size increases proportional to the head size (a big IF), a 95 square inch racket will have less than 1.4 square inches extra sweet-spot.

    My personal experience tells me that, in fact, sweet-spot size is not significantly related to the head size at all. What this means is that a 95 square inch racket may not even have any increase in sweet-spot size. It may, but it also may not.

    On the other hand, a more significant difference that a 95 square inch racket will have is the feel. That, in my view, would be more detrimental to Federer than any negligible gains that he may derive from increasing head size.

    Plus, searching for a new weapon is a time-consuming and risky business. It might be worthwhile for us mortals and even lower-ranked pros, but for a GOAT like Federer it's just not an optimal move. Now that I think about it, this might be an interesting research topic for my dissertation haha.
     
  16. nethawkwenatchee

    nethawkwenatchee Professional

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    His one handed back hand is great but still one of his liabilities against certain players on certain surfaces. If he increased the headsize this problem may be become a bigger problem (IMHO)
     
  17. ace0001a

    ace0001a Semi-Pro

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    Just as a preface BP, we are all putting down opinions here and I was not trying to be argumentative...it's ok to be passionate about your views, but with all due respect no need to push each and everyone's opinion's aside. That said, I think we can all agree to disagree for those who are on opposite sides.


    When going smaller from an OS to a MP that's near OS, my opinion is that it's not much a difference when physically comparing racquet heads and I can say the same would be true going the other way...but I would agree with those and say going bigger does help more with shanks and mishits.

    Since I am not going to question the view or opinion of a 14 Slam winner, I would chose to believe his retrospective take in equipment is very much a valid one. Also would be fair to say Davydenko, Ljubicic and Ferroro are/were never at the skill level of Sampras or Federer.


    Probably...but again I wouldn't question a valid retrospective opinion of said 14 Slam winner.
     
  18. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Fed does try larger heads - Wilson brings him a bunch of different rackets to try every year - yet he always ends up with the 90". And based on his last 12 months, I'd say he's been making the correct decision.

    A shank isn't going to be helped by a few more sq in - it's a timing thing. Can't turn back the clock...

    This thread just keeps on giving the free entertainment.
     
  19. ace0001a

    ace0001a Semi-Pro

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    Yeah I wouldn't doubt he probably does try many racquets Wilson throws at him and agreed that based on his recent performance level, doesn't need to change.

    And of course these threads are always great entertainment...though I myself have always tried to keep an open mind with everyone's opinions. Say your two cents, agree to disagree and to each their own.
     
  20. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Actually, I was just asking for clarification of your opinion, that's all. :)

    Then you must also agree that going from a Mid to a MP is not much of a difference when physically comparing racquet heads since it's the same 5 sq. in. difference, right?

    I would because Sampras is clearly wrong. He's using hindsight to fantasize about what could have been. That's completely flawed logic. It's like saying I should have married that other girl instead because of course my life would be so much better today. But if you did marry that other girl instead, it's also quite possible that your life would have been even worse. She might have gotten really fat, refused to talk to you or have sex with you, spent all your money and put you in the poor house, and then divorced you and took everything you have left. It's the grass is always greener on the other side syndrome. Sampras only THINKS he would have done better with a bigger racquet. Reality could have turned out very differently. He only knows what DID happen and not not what WOULD HAVE happened. Oh, and I should have bought Apple stock back in 1997 when it was only $4 a share. But then again, I didn't because it could have very well gone to $0 a share. Hindsight is always right, isn't it? :wink:
     
  21. volleynets

    volleynets Professional

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    Good points Breakpoint.
     
  22. ace0001a

    ace0001a Semi-Pro

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    Well BP, you and everyone else are and should be entitled to an opinion. I think it's obvious here we can agree to disagree, simple as that. :) Lets move on shall we?
     
  23. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Yep.

    I took Sampras' comments on him wishing he'd tried a larger head size with a grain of salt anyway. It's the strings which have changed the most and which he has elsewhere said are tantamount to cheating - implying the gains made have been significant. Frames really haven't changed all that much by comparison - and a half cm of extra hoop size here or there certainly doesn't make a world of difference compared to other factors (weight, balance, flex, strings, tension).

    I've used a PS85 exclusively (other than testin frames) since I was a teen and I'm 100 leagues below Sampras - but with the strings available nowdays they have never played so well, especially in the spin department.
     
  24. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Hall of Fame

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    Lendl in his time, played a 73:cool: instead of a 75:wink: did alright.
     
  25. lawrencejin

    lawrencejin Rookie

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    I think Ace makes a fair point. We should agree to disagree, since at the end of the day, we're only speculating and presenting our own opinions.

    For example, Ace said: "...I wouldn't question a valid retrospective opinion of [Sampras]"
    BP said: "I would because Sampras is clearly wrong"

    To me, both statements are much stronger than what we can substantiate with evidence. Is Sampras' retrospective opinion unquestionably valid? No, as BP argued. But then, does that mean Sampras is clearly wrong? Again, no. The answer is: we don't know, so we cannot rule anything out in such a confident manner.

    I wish we could somehow turn the time back and conduct an experiment: let Sampras play with a larger head, and see how many slams he wins. Since we cannot do that, we'll never know the answer... and I guess we'll continue to have entertaining, heated, and opinionated debates on this forum :)
     
  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I didn't mean that Sampras was clearly wrong that he couldn't have done as well or even better with a bigger racquet during his pro career. He may or may not have. What I'm saying is that his logic is clearly wrong because it's flawed logic. You can't say AFTER the fact that you would have done better if you had switched to a bigger racquet because the truth is that you just don't know. You may have done better but you may have also done worse. So it's Sampras's logic that was clearly wrong.
     
  27. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

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    Then how about stopping the questioning of an opinion (and choice) from a 17 slam winner.
    Since he keeps playing with his current racquet, it is clear that his opinion is that it's the best racquet for him.
    Makes sense ?!?!??
     
  28. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    OP right now is playing tennis with a badminton racket:)
     
  29. ace0001a

    ace0001a Semi-Pro

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    I am going to reiterate that everyone's entitled to an opinion, we can all agree to disagree and to each their own which is what makes sense...

    Maybe the OP is playing tennis with a racquetball racquet! :)
     
  30. Lambsscroll

    Lambsscroll Professional

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    Courier, Edberg, Federer and Sampras could have played with the Pro Staff 95 since it was available at the same time as the PS85. But all 4 Grand Slam winners preferred the PS85. Keep in mind that now with the advent of poly strings players are stringing lower so the sweet spot has increased without sacrificing control. Also the heavier the stick the more of a sweet spot you'll have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  31. lendlmac

    lendlmac Rookie

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    Federer MUSt make the switch now, or he will descened behind the top 10 in 2013....

    a '95 or 98 sq. frame ala Dolgopolov should do it...
     
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He should use the Christmas vacation to get used to a 95 sq in frame. Next year, Nadal is gonna be back and life will be very difficult for Federer with the small frame.
     
  33. monfed

    monfed Guest

    I'm actually starting to think he should switch. Seriously what's he gotta lose? He ain't winning squat in 13' with that paintbrush anymore,sadly.
     
  34. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    What does holding an opinion have anything to do with the validity of that opinion with regards to how it may work out in "real" life? I can hold the opinion that a person jumping head first off of the top floor of the Sears tower with no type of protection will survive the faceplant into the concrete sidewalk. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that doesn't mean their opinion should be given any weight in an argument.

    In the case of this thread, the opinion that Federer switching to a bigger head size else he descend even more, is fallacious. If he were to switch and start winning more there is no way one can attribute that to being the primary reason, or even any part of really, for the "renewed" success. The only way this issue would even have a chance at entering a real debate would be for scientists to study Fed during the course of one or two seasons where Fed is constantly switching between head sizes during each match he plays.

    To put this more succinctly, the burden of proof is on those who believe Fed changing to a larger head size would improve his game. The reverse isn't true for those who say changing will not matter because Fed has enjoyed unparalleled success with his current racquet. Those who believe no change will matter have evidence on their side. Those who believe changing will help have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up their claim at this point in time. All have a right to form an opinion but not all opinions get to enjoy the same weight in a discussion. So, there is no "agreeing to disagree". Either get some evidence to back up one's opinion or it will be treated as the joke it's put forth to be.
     
  35. ace0001a

    ace0001a Semi-Pro

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    Yeah well, I am just going to agree to disagree with you...it's my perogative, 'nuff said, Peace Out!
     
  36. Player#1

    Player#1 Rookie

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    There is no doubt that Federer really needs to go down 5 rather than up!

    He needs to go back to his PS 85 so he can play more of an inside the baseline attacking style of play!
     
  37. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

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    He needs more power in his ground stroke game,,moving up in racquet size will do this with the same swing.
     
  38. PrimeChoice

    PrimeChoice New User

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    The Fed is in condition and will be in contention for another Wimbeldon Title.

    The Fed is in condition and will be in contention...
     
  39. PrimeChoice

    PrimeChoice New User

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    Fed loves his racquet, he will NOT SWITCH!
     
  40. Blaxican10s

    Blaxican10s Banned

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    Fed needs to switch otherwise he's going to fall....down to #3 in the world. Oh no, the horrors!
     
  41. PrimeChoice

    PrimeChoice New User

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    Ya, I bet whoever started this thread serves like a little baby.
     
  42. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Yes, he played great with the 85 Original, full gut.
     
  43. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Ferrer doesn't hit his ground strokes with nearly as much power as Federer does, yet he is able to beat bigger guys who hit with much more power, such as Del Potro and Berdych. It ain't the power!
     
  44. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Regardless of the size of his racquet, Federer will descend from now on. How many pros over the age of 32 have won Slams regardless of the size of their racquets?

    Tennis is a game of the legs, not of the size of your racquet.
     
  45. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    I sometimes wonder if those guys who start those threads ever played tennis.
     
  46. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is a question of his rate of descent.
     
  47. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Quoted for truth.

    Legs and sharpness win tennis, not square inches.
     
  48. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Sampras already retired by the time he was Federer's age. Even if Federer just remains on the tour, that's already an improvement in the rate of descent.
     
  49. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

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    Actually, for goat considerations, all of your slams are valued in proportion to the sqare inches of your head, so federer's slams are worth more. He should go even smaller for the last 2 before he retires.
     
  50. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    At 31 he was #1 and currently #2, I'd say that's a frozen state of descent.
     

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