Federer must make the switch or he will descend even more

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by The Baseline, Jul 8, 2010.

  1. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Um....no. Wilson is trying to sell his CURRENT racquet. That's why they keep future products a well guarded secret. Just like car companies do. They don't want Federer to be saying to the public - "What else have you got?" That makes customers think that Federer doesn't think his current racquet that Wilson is trying to sell is so great. Wilson wants Federer to say that his current racquet is so great that there's no need for him to keep asking Wilson for other racquets to test. Remember, it's not Wilson asking him to test new racquets so they can market a new frame, it's Federer asking Wilson for new racquets to test. He wouldn't do that if he was 100% satisfied with his current racquet.

    Yet, Wilson sells millions of Tour 90s because it's the "best" racquet for Federer. We're talking about the marketing message that Wilson wants to send to the racquet buying public.

    It's already been backed up by others. No need for me to reinvent the wheel.

    Yeah, it was a video with Annacone standing next to Federer on the court, not the millions of other videos of Federer practicing where he's just hitting with someone.

    Yeah, I analyzed it and determined it was a bigger racquet than his 90. Done deal.

    If you're a non-believer than that's YOUR problem, isn't it? Not mine.

    Um....Federer lost in the quarters of Wimbledon in 2011 so he had at least a week and a half to hit with a new racquet. And who said that was the first time he ever hit with it? That's enough for him to try it in the 1st set of his DC match. Heck, Blake tried using Wilson BLX Six-One 90s in all of his Australian Open matches a couple of years ago on a whim. And Agassi walked into a pro shop and bought a few retail Head Instincts during a French Open and used them for his matches. You don't give the pros enough credit for their ability to quickly adjust. Isn't it common wisdom that Federer could play with anything, including a frying pan? :)
     
  2. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    The entire car industry calls ******** on your lack of understanding of marketing and development. Watch a Formula One race one day and see how companies develop things ahead and see huge value in showing that they are about pushing forward regardless of their current models*. In tennis, who better to relay this message to millions of people than Wilson's marketing godsend, Roger Federer?

    (* as a couple of examples which existed in F1 and were widely publicised by brands many years before they made it onto their consumer cars: paddle-shift gear changing, sequential gearboxes, reactive suspension, traction control, rear diffuser aerodynamics, weight-saving carbon components, dual clutch gearboxes etc)

    That's not how it looks when you go back and read it.

    Yeah, I analyzed it and determined it was a bigger racquet than his 90. Done deal.[/QUOTE]
    You ought to try and find the video - I'd love to see it and would happily be proven wrong on this point. Until I see it I'll regard your claims on it in the same light as your claims about some of the photos - which I have seen and which few people, if any, agreed with your assessment of. Especially the bit about the hoop being thinner.

    You're right there. People will be able to read the opposing versions and pretty quickly be able to work out your claims about the 95 frame at the Davis Cup are unsubstantiated baloney.

    OK. You were vague enough when you said "maybe he had been testing it for weeks or months" and you can now frame those as cumulative instead of sequential as most readers would have taken from your framing of it.

    Did they not teach the basics of coherent argument when you went to school? Have you got cantankerous old man syndrome or something?
     
  3. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, that's why car companies disguise the new models when they test them out of the streets just in case someone takes a picture of it. They are known as "spy shots" in the car industry. They want to hide the new model because they don't want customers to stop buying the current model to wait for the new one as they still have lots of inventory of the current model and they are not ready to release the new model yet but they still need to sell cars in the meantime to keep the company alive. They also don't want to tip off their competitors as to their new models. It's the same with racquet companies. Why is it that Wilson never reveals its new models until just before they are released to the public? They already know what the new models are going to be in January 2014 so why don't they start marketing them now? Why is it that Apple keeps its new products and new versions of products a guarded secret until right before they are released for sale? Your example is irrelevant because Formula One cars are not consumer products and we're talking about car (or racquet) models that change every couple of years not any new technologies used in them. The last thing any company wants to do is to encourage customers to stop buying what's currently available to wait for what's currently unavailable.

    I certainly hope you don't work in business nor marketing.
     
  4. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    I do and have done for many years. That's half of why I know you don't know what the heck you're talking about. I've had to deal with flacks who try to talk the talk for years. Your car examples are a case in point - pointing out how the car industry can be distinguished from the tennis racquet one as if an analogy can't be made there - all the while you've made stacks of fundamentally flawed analogies in previous posts as if they somehow proved something or bolstered your unverified (more like unverifiable) story about that first set in the Davis Cup.
     
  5. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Of course it can! Why do you think racquet companies black out the new model prototypes while players are testing them? It's the same for car companies. They black out their prototype cars while they are testing them. Neither racquet nor car companies want to reveal to their customers or competitors what their new models will be or what they will look like until they are ready for sale so as not to negatively affect the sales of their current racquets/cars or to tip off their competitors what they've got coming up.

    So Federer used a bigger racquet for one set of a match. What's the big deal? Deal with it! It's not the end of the world. (Or maybe it's the end of YOUR world for some inexplicable reason?) Blake and Agassi used smaller racquets (Wilson BLX90 and Head Instinct MP, respectively) for entire Grand Slam tournaments just to test them out in real matches. It's not unprecedented!
     
  6. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Personally I do, especially on his 1H BH. Although movement and motivation is probably bigger.
     
  7. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    What if BP and Bobby Jr. were actually the same person?
    Just imagine...
    Weird
     
  8. nn

    nn Hall of Fame

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    Still don't care what Roger does but K90 and 100 inch does make difference at end of the day.
     
  9. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    That article about Fed not having enough time to test out new racquets is old. Now with his 2 month layoffs between tournaments he has nothing but time. If he doesn’t have time now with his limited schedule he’ll never have time. It has nothing to do with time, it’s the fact that he just doesn’t and will never switch. Maybe after retirement when he’s 40 and playing old man exos for charity or something
     
  10. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    Contrary to popular beleif - so much of effective shot making depends on the racquets-swing-weight.

    No federer will be more effective with a 88-sq-inch head-size & maybe 10grams more weight added. His 90-inch Prostaff is basically a 93-sq-inch headsized racquet because of how wilson measure headsizes, He'd be more helped by a more Prestige-Like headsize (88/89.5 s inch ) - so it'll swing faster through air & 10-grams more weight ( so that his hits will be heavier ) - so that Fed can end rallies early with winners instead of rallying for hours & losing to pushers.

    with a smaller--heavier-deadlier racquet Fed can pull the trigger in long rallies early & win his way, remember getting more aggressive w/his second serve & going nuts on attacking the net made Sampras deadly in later rounds during his later years, Fed is not gonna do S&V , but he can certainly end rallies faster rather than strething it - which never favours him. I KNOW IT WILL BE VERY RISKY , but c'mon - it's God.Fed we are talking about - if anyone can pull it through - it's him. Also think about the joy it'll bring to spectators - Fed going for his shots ...... he always looks better when playing aggressive.
     
  11. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I'm not sure you really understand how tennis or tennis equipment works.
     
  12. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    Please enlighten me how a 17-slam winner did it with the smallest head-sized racquet in top-100 & with arguably the heaviest (364grams I beleive) - to achieve that feat ? I'm sure your tennis equipment knowledge supersede's mine.

    Also can you please explain the fact that current NO#1 Djokovic prefers a Liquidmetal Radical ( a smaller headsize than advertised ) w/ almost 32grams of lead taped to it's head to make it heavier - year after year ( if you go back & watch Djoko's matches from 2008 - his shots went through air a lot less quicker or had less penetration - because I beleive he had a lesser swing-weight & started adding up from 2009 on , back in 2008 it was atleast 15/16-grams lighter than what he uses now ) - so, why did he prefer a heavier stick ? - I'd like to hear your great insight into tennis equipment, my wise-friend ?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  13. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

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    Yes PvAudio's post was very agressive
    Instead of just criticizing why dont you give the correct information if you believe holding it?
    I'm sick of these lapidaire internet boards posts
     
  14. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    This!

    I have three Blade 93's and two Extreme 2.0's, both "players" racquets, but hardly similar in many characteristics. I can switch between them pretty much anytime with no fundamental adjustment to my game. There are obviously some differences to the ball I hit with each and the "feel" but really easy to adjust to immediately. If I can do it the pros can do it 100x better.
     
  15. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    First, I think the larger racquet for Federer argument is silly. He plays best with whatever he plays best with. Only he knows what that is. Your statement that so much depends on swingweight is true and obvious. Your subsequent logic, however, is purely fallacious. You are saying that a smaller headsize racquet which weighs more gives you greater shot penetration because it swings through the air faster. You then claim that adding more weight, in your example it is 10 grams, will create a heavier ball.

    According to you, applying both of these will yield a great increase in Federer's game. You seem to have forgotten two incredibly important "P"s: physics and physiology. The minute you increase the swingweight of a racquet, you change its moment of inertia. This means that more force is required to get it to move and to accelerate it up to the same velocity as before. Feasibly, once it's at said velocity, you have more punch because you've got more momentum. Also obvious. However, the thing moving the racquet is not a machine with near infinite torque: it's a human being with a very elaborate series of movements which when put together become a tennis stroke. The reason you see players with these perfectly spec'd frames is because they want a piece of equipment that matches how they hit the ball, and them only. The minute you start fooling with that, that is the minute the stroke changes no matter how minutely.

    Lets think back to the days of wooden racquets. Those racquets were very small headsize and very heavy, much like you're offering as a course of action. Racquet head speed back then was orders of magnitude less than it is now. Why? Because if you even tried to swing a wooden racquet as though it were a K90 or a Prestige or a APD, you're more likely to spin around in a circle than hit a super devastating ball. The modern tennis game no longer works on those principles. Strokes have changed to suit the new equipment, and players have changed to exploit that. Heading backwards in time with regards to equipment specs is far more detrimental than moving forward towards lighter frames with larger head sizes. To assume that an aging Federer would get his own back if he started playing with a tiny frame that weighs a ton assumes that he's not a human.

    You essentially said he can somehow pull the trigger more easily with something that requires better timing, footwork, anticipation and stamina (so that you can get the frame moving at just the right time every time for a 3 hour, 5 set match), all while all of those traits deteriorate with age. You've made the mistake of correlation vs. causation: increasing swingweight and decreasing head size do not improve ball speed at all points on the curve.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  16. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    You just reiterated your previous post using slightly different wording. You really don't have anything original to add do you?

    If you still don't get my point you clearly don't understand marketing and likely never will. There's just no point in discussing it with you because you have your blinkers on and chose to believe the version of the story which has the least amount of, and least credible body of evidence. You are defending a fool's position in this regards.
     
  17. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    I see very large article basically giving my suggestion more boost. LoL.

    So basically you're saying what I said by Your vastly overwritten paragraph holds true & "obvious" - then how is it fallacious ? I see nothing explaining that.

    Roger knows best what to play with & that's why he is stuck w/a smaller 90-sq-head, my "suggestion" was that instead of going larger 95-sq-inchhead , he may benefit from going 2-3-sq-inch less - giving him a riskier but point ending way of play.
     
  18. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    So I forgot about physics & physiology by suggesting that Roger may be benefitted by increasing swing-weight/weight producing a heavier ball ( surely by your law of "PHYSICS" I'm wrong here ) & racquet-head faster through the air - because of I'm wrong about physiology , right ?

    I see you have typed so many words but can't contradict what I said the 1st time - are you trying to say that a heavier frame & a smaller headsize won't produce a ball that'll be faster through air & heavier - because if you are trying to say that - please go back to school & learn how to spell physics. lol

    Federer has tinkered with his frames since 2001 , his ProStaff PJ's can be seen weighted at 351gm which varies till 2005 where we can ( from respectable posters & fellow TT-researchers upto 359gms ) , we can see his Kfactors go up to 363gm's , so Your point is mute , every pro will tinker with their eqipment to get the maximum playability out of it , even nadal added 3gm's at 12'o clock before USO to get his serve's up. Learn about Tennis before you comment, will You ?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  19. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    Wooden Racquets were less manuverable , so lets NOT go that far back , I said Prestige-like , let's stick to that shall we ?

    By Your logic the modern game does NOT work like that, Why is then Pro's like Soderling can reach french-open final's w/a racquet weighing 387gm ?

    I did not say a ton , I said he will benefit from slight increase in weight & a slightly smaller headsize - which will give him advantage putting the point away quickly, which is federer's case will save him stamina & worthless points pursuits that he's never gonna win - I ALSO SAID THAT IT's A RISKY STRATEGY but Fed can pull it off , now won't it be a slap in your face if we saw fabfed posted 2013-wimby racquets & we see a 370gm BLX PS 90 , huh ? I can't say anything about the future but I can honestly say Your points look pretty dull my friend.
     
  20. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    Not SOMEHOW , I EXPLAINED HOW IN THE FIRST POST IN THE THREAD. READ.

    I said it's risky strategy.

    Yes, the only ACTUAL fact in the whole reply , those traits do deteriorate w/age , but it will evaporate even faster as the point goes longer , with Federer's talent , if he can manage a 363gm 90sq, perhaps I hoped he would manage a 373 w/89.5sq - which will give him a riskier but quicker kill.

    "increasing swingweight and decreasing head size do not improve ball speed at all points on the curve" - but It does , by law of physics it does, all points of the curve - no , but Federer's at his career-sunset, end-curve will do just fine for him.
     
  21. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    This is why I advocate Federer going back to his PS 6.0 85. :)
     
  22. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    I see no reason why he can't , he started off his career w/PS.85. So, switching back to a 85 won't be that big of a deal ( a loco move maybe but possible for Roger) from the head-size perspective & we all know He liked'em leaded - how much leaded depends on the competetion - I feel it's time for swing'n'kill.

    We really don't wanna see him pushed up against the backhand & lose 25+ shot rallies & realistically Roger has always played better when he kept the points short - much like Sampras. I dare say 85-maybe too much retro , but he can easily try the KProStaff88 ( which is more like a true-91) - I think he'll do much better than this board-like PS-BLX( which is actually a 93).

    That's what I tried to suggest & got all this BS.
     
  23. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Oh goodness, now you're all worked up over the internet. Oh well, you and BP can enjoy each other's company.
     
  24. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    Ohh, very witty come back for a tennis-illeterate who claimed to know about "physics" & "physiology" - what happened buddy ?

    I still see no contradictions or argument made by you to any of the points I highlighted - not even a come back. That's called proper *****-whoopin for you. Next time instead of typing a long-pointless-jibberish, try to type something worthwhile my read, would you ?

    I suggested something I felt would help Fed, I backed-up my views, You on the other hand turned out to be a troll w/pointless jibberish. ohh, over the internet. :D

    I do enjoy reading intelligent posts over here (excludes you) & occasionally posting, why are you here ? Surely not to post about "physics" & "phisiology" - because they escape you completely , hence the suggestion to go back to school might actually improve you. Enjoy buddy.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  25. Readers

    Readers Semi-Pro

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    Wait, you are so used to Head's wrong way of measuring head size that you are having problem with Wilson doing it correctly???!???!? :?:confused::-?:eek::eek:
     
  26. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    Right or Wrong is not my place to say - it depends on the company, I'm saying Fed MAY benefit from a smalller-headsize than his current Wilson 90-sq-inch ( however you measure it ) - I suggested that he may consider a more 89.5 or 88-sq-inch size ( LIKE A PRESTIGE ) - I have many versions of PS.85 , KPS88 & PS BLX 90 & a "FEW" versions of Prestige-Mid, now though it says 93-sq-inch or 600cm on Head-Prestige-Mid , if you have compared it w/a PS85 headsize you'd realize it's almost the same ( maybe a little bit bigger - so if Wilson measured it , my guess they will put a number like say : 86.5/87 on it - Roger , specially on clay - may tremendously benefit from a frame of that size , look at soderling - twice Finalist - the only one to beat Rafa on roland garros - because he went for shots , most of the points in that match he pulled the trigger first & early on in the rally, his ball was quicker through the air( because of his heavier/smaller racquet) & his depth was what beat Rafa at the end , if Roger picked up something like that & went for broke - he will be even more effective than Soderling. Instead of going to a 95, Roger's style of play may well be suited to a more aggressive & deadlier frame. Risky, but effective. Just My view though.
     
  27. Fedest

    Fedest New User

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    I am not sure if this makes great difference to Fed whether switching 90 to 95

    My case, I currently use k90 and I absoutely love them and I would love to request wilson to produce more.
    But, I really really wish they produce exactly same specs as k90 but enlarge head size to 93~95

    I have no problem playing 90 during the game but when it gets intense I really really wish head to be bit bigger.
     
  28. rpsbel

    rpsbel New User

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    I update my opinion about that. Today, I do not think he should change any equipment. IMO, The problem is that other players are at the same level now. And there is an age problem. He did a lot of things. 17 Grand Slams. But I think it is time to him slow down and prioritize the bigger torunaments. IMO, I think he could win more 2 or 3 grand Slam titles and some Masters, but he could change his calendar and forget number 1.
     
  29. AREYOUOUTOFYOURVULCANMIND

    AREYOUOUTOFYOURVULCANMIND Rookie

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    "I've been testing rackets for the last 10 years and have also tested 95 sq so who knows. Maybe one day. I'm always open for changes. The real challenge is finding a time in the calendar year where i have enough time to test it out and get comfortable."

    - ROGER FEDERER
     
  30. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    if the 10 weeks after indian wells isn't enough then he's just full of *&(#. How much time does he need, 5 years?
     
  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Randome thoughts.
    Fed has played with sub 90's all his life. Might be horrified at using a 95.
    Fed has a great game for sure, but a bigger racket would reduce his serve speed and possibly his forehand speeds. Can he give up on both?
    I know, when I use a bigger racket, my serves go slower, all my shots lack precision, but I do have to watch the ball better than when I play with bigger hoops.
    Slowing down Fed's serve and forehand, to gain some control on his backhand, might be more loss than gain...in his mind.
     
  32. Carolina Racquet

    Carolina Racquet Hall of Fame

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    Let's see... age 31... 3rd best player in the world. Yes. He needs to start with a clean slate. I mean he hasn't won a grand slam since 2012!

    Give me a break.
     
  33. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    IMO if you can win even one slam with a 90 si racquet, then you should never put that racquet down. Use it forever! It's a godly racquet.
     
  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I've been playing with my current racquet for the past 6 years and I'm still not completely comfortable with it. :shock:
     
  35. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    +1. OP - and all the others before him/her who start these threads are amusing. They know more than Federer. It's possible he'd hit his BH better with a 95" - but it would totally screw up his serve and volleys.

    For those asking how much time does Fed need: don't forget he's married, has kids (2), has a foundation, and a bunch of sponsors. I think the proverbial plate is full.

    The free entertainment from the internet is awesome. What would be do without it?
     
  36. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    Uh...fellas...he's getting OLDER!!! This happens to all of us, tennis players or pole vaulters. You cannot continue to play at the same high level forever. If he changes racquets or attempts to get into better condition, it might help some, but you can't turn back the hands of time. Sooner or later ALL players slide back behind the younger and stronger players. Even if your general tennis skills haven't eroded---and that's not a given either as the years go by---you lose muscle tone, strength, speed, quickness, focus, endurance, intensity, desire, etc. Trying to do what you once did to the same level you once did it hurts more and more and eventually, pain or not, you simply can't rise that high any longer. You have to accept it---time gets us all. Some sooner, some later, but eventually, all of us.

    I'm personally a huge Nadal fan---but the day will come when he, too, can no longer compete with the much younger players. This is not complicated. It's called aging.
     
  37. dragonxking

    dragonxking Rookie

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    reddit

    federer just did a Q&A on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1ezafj/im_roger_federer_a_professional_tennis_player/

    someone asked him:
    What’s your opinion about moving up to a 95 sq in racquet like most of the ATP?

    To which he replied:
    I've been testing rackets for the last 10 years and have also tested 95 sq so who knows. Maybe one day. I'm always open for changes. The real challenge is finding a time in the calendar year where i have enough time to test it out and get comfortable.
     
  38. sixone90

    sixone90 Professional

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    Then maybe you're not using the right racquet that's suited to your game. Ever think of that?
     
  39. dParis

    dParis Hall of Fame

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    This thread's got some legs...
     
  40. ShahofTennis

    ShahofTennis Semi-Pro

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    Honestly.. all these theories as to why Federer should and shouldn't use a 90 and switch to a bigger head size are credible, but trivial nonetheless. His biggest influence to remain a "purist" is purely monetary. Wilson PAYS Federer to use the 90 so people will buy the 90's. Federer is single-handedly the biggest seller of midsize racquets for Wilson.
    -There's a pun in single-handedly because of his 1HBH.
     
  41. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    don´t bring me that stuff about bad matchups with Nadal
    Connors was a bad match up for Borg, lendl for Mac or Rosewall for Laver.

    Those guys just had the maturity to switch things around and they became bad matchups to their nemesis

    Why Fed hasn´t been able to?

    well, that is the reason he is not at those guys level...
     
  42. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    No need to post stuff like this which makes a couple of posters here look silly.
     
  43. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, I have thought of that. But I've tried hundreds of other racquets and those are even worse! So just because I'm not fully comfortable with the racquet that I use does not mean that I'm more comfortable with another racquet. :shock:
     
  44. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, that's why Federer thought testing out a bigger racquet in the 1st set of a one-sided Davis Cup match is as good of a time as any. :) If not then, when? He has no other free time on his calendar to try it in a real match that he has no chance of losing.
     
  45. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
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    Well, solves the matter.
     
  46. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
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    4,263
    how 'bout now? Scruberer cant handle the heat anymore. Needs to move up to a gramps racquet
     
  47. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

    Joined:
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    How many oberheads did he miss today?
    The easy volleys?!!!
    Let's not talk about the FH mess
    And it doesnt seem to have something to do with his footwork...
     
  48. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    35,051
    Will switching to a bigger frame help him?
     
  49. PCXL-Fan

    PCXL-Fan Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely 100% positively. Quite possibly he would have won a few more RG, one more Wimbledon, 1 more USO, and one more AO if he'd had the advantage of a similar size racquet to his rivals.
     
  50. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    he should listen to the wise words of Pistole Petros
     

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