Federer Racket discussed by Chris Fowler and Darren Cahill?? Makes NO sense

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by Fedace, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    Ok, all you pro racket people. I am listening to Chris Fowler and Darren Cahill in Rafa vs Schuttler match. Chris mentioned that Roger uses the same racket by Wilson from 25 years ago and it is extremely head light. and Darren Cahill Agrees. So what the heck is idiot Chris talking about here.?? The racket from 25 years ago,,,Wilson Prostaff 90 that Roger grew up with ?? If so how would Chris know this ?? another idiot statement by Chris,,,"Rafa uses a extremely light racket and he can muscle it around, but amateur recreational players would not be able to use such a racket cause it is so LIGHT". Are these guys this ignorant ?? :shock::confused:
     
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  2. etienne47

    etienne47 New User

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    Yes, indeed, they are that ignorant, especially Fowler. Talk about banal/inaccurate commentary!!!
     
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  3. fortunecookiesjc

    fortunecookiesjc Semi-Pro

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    hahahah those two are so retarded.
     
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  4. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    So i guess this mean Roger is NOT using the K-factor afterall .........Thank you Chris Fowler for your confirmation.
     
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  5. dirtballer

    dirtballer Professional

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    I think they may have meant head light balance as opposed to overall weight. The average recreational player uses a lighter racket than Federer or Nadal but with a more head heavy balance.
     
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  6. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    actually rafa uses far more head heavy aeropro than stock frame. and racket being head light has no bearing on wether a rec player can use it or not.
     
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  7. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    There you go>>> It's confirmed!

    both the K90 and babolats are too demanding for recreational players.
     
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  8. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    They are both apparently morons based on this conversation. I could not believe that they said that the racquets are VERY similar. Complete idiots.
     
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  9. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    They have both been owned!

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    What Chris Fowler meant (and Roddick said the same thing in an interview a while back that's been posted here many times and Tony Roche also said the same thing) is that the K90 is essentially the same racquet and uses the same 25 year old technology as the PS 6.0 85 but with a slightly bigger head.

    I play with the K90 and it does feel like a 25 year old racquet to me. In fact, too me, it has a solid "wood-like" feel to it. I don't notice any "technology" in the K90 that's not in the PS 6.0. In fact, my PS 6.0 95 has more power than my K90. IMO, the K90 could have easily come out 25 years ago and it wouldn't have been anything special even 25 years ago. I think this is why so many people like it. I think when it comes to tennis racquets, the more "technology" they try to cram into a racquet, the worse it gets. I guess Federer agrees. :eek:
     
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  11. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

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    the commentators stated that recreational players wouldnt be able to weild Fed or Rafa's racquet successfully.

    this my friend is true.

    rec players would be unsuccessful with such headlight racquets because they wouldn't be able to muster any power with them.

    Both Roger and Rafa's swing speed are pretty fast, to say the least, making headlight racquets ideal.
     
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  12. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely incorrect. How can someone make this about recreational players they have never seen play. Some people consider 4.5 recreational.
     
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  13. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Nadal's racquet specs are not that far off from what many "recreational players" use. Babolat did indeed sell the racquet Nadal uses the AeroPro Drive with out the Cortex.
    Strung Weight: 332 grams
    Balance: 33.5 cm
    Swing weight: 355
    http://www.hdtennis.com/grs/pro_racquet_specs.html

    I have absolutely no respect for anything Chris Fowler has to say about tennis. He is so ignorant about tennis and the equipment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
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  14. jmsx521

    jmsx521 Hall of Fame

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    I thought someone had mentioned that Nadal has about 50-60 one inch lead tape strips positioned at 12 o'clock, under the bumper guard on his racket: Doesn't that make it very head-heavy... no?
     
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  15. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Awesome Video Drakulie!:lol:
     
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  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Commentators, even former players and coaches, don't know much about racquets. We do, right here on this board. And I am not being sarcastic.
     
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  17. emerckx53

    emerckx53 Semi-Pro

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    Lighten up fella's.....Do you really expect these two guys to know the inside story on pro players racquets? They are there to call the match....besides they are speaking in generalizations....Rafa does use a lighter racquet than most pros and regardless of what Fed is using it is still an ancestor of the old 90....go hit some balls and quit worrying about it...
     
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  18. fps

    fps Legend

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    on the bbc they said that federer strings at 48/49 tension, very loose. any truth in that?
     
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  19. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Many different people have been saying the same thing for years so I assume it's true.
     
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  20. !Tym

    !Tym Hall of Fame

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    Well, I wouldn't necessary say that, but one thing the general public doesn't realize is that there are a lot of different ways to accomplish the same thing. Ever notice through the years, that all the new technologies are supposed to improve either A) comfort, B) power, C) control, D) spin, E) stability, F) feel, or G) maneuverability. That's it. There are new revolutions in racket technology, just different ways to accomplish the same thing. Each year, the manufacturer's find new ways to accomplish the same intended benefit/result, give it a fancy name, and wala market it to the masses. It's not a new racket you're getting in terms of actual PERFORMANCE so much as you're just getting a new racket with different decals on it designed in the end to accomplish ultimately pretty much the same thing.

    The biggest difference in "technology" by far has been producing strings with nearly the same control and spin as kevlar but with significantly more power and a more manageable jar to the ol' elbow.

    One thing the general public doesn't realize, however, is that while kevlar pretty much always plays the same until it breaks, a.k.a. dead as a door nail; the new-age polys I've found only really deliver on their promise of utopian power, control, and spin all at the same time WHEN they're fresh. Seriously, even after just a few hits, they tend to go dead and lose their resilency/spring. They just feel like they stop responding so damn dynamically to the ball, and when that happens they become a "neither here, nor there" type string.

    The pros avoid this, because they restring so frequently, whether the string is broken or not, or even actually got played or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
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  21. Mike Danger

    Mike Danger Banned

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    I cant believe that Mcenroe just said that nadals racket is "30-40 grams lighter" and "alot of players are experimenting with lighter frames.... Roddicks frame is lighter"

    other stupid quotes "they are also going to smaller heads... Fed DROPPED DOWN to a 90 sq in"

    and right after that "Rafa is has always used a synthetic gut, never really tried the luxilons" Like luxilon is a TYPE of string!!
     
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  22. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    ^^^LOL, Rafa hasn't used a synthetic Gut since he was a little child. Rafa has always used polys by Babolat.
     
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  23. grizzly4life

    grizzly4life Professional

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    isn't that an absolutely massive amount of lead tape? and i'd think it would have problems staying on the racquet.
     
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  24. Klatu Verata Necktie

    Klatu Verata Necktie Hall of Fame

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    I've heard McEnroe say things like these before and the explanation I got was that he considers everything outside of natural gut (including polyester) to be synthetic gut. In his own twisted way, I suspect he was saying he doesn't use the Luxilon brand like so many of other ATP players.
     
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  25. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    there is no way, it is that many. more like 5-6 lead tapes NOT 50-60.
     
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  26. RyanC

    RyanC New User

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    They aren't stupid statements, they're just poorly worded - which is why very few former pros should be allowed near a commentary booth.

    McEnroe means that Fed is bucking the trend for larger (to McEnroe) 95sq+ racquets so he's 'dropped down' to a 90sq. Yes, he and a lot of other people, especially former players, treat Luxilon as a separate type of string. Roddick's racquet is lighter, when compared to the weights players used when McEnroe was on tour.

    I think the problem is that the game has passed McEnroe by. That's not such a problem if you're a commentator who doesn't make grand statements about the game (John Barret) but for someone like McEnroe who has an opinion on everything it is crucial.
     
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  27. CAM178

    CAM178 Hall of Fame

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    Cut Mac some slack, man. He knows more about tennis, and has seen more in tennis, than all of us on this board (I would imagine) put together. What Mac was saying was that Rafa has always used syn gut, and that he never tried Lux. What's wrong with that? That's exactly what I'd say. Lux is a brand, and it is a completely different type of string. Mac grew up with natural gut, as that's all they had back then. If you put it into proper perspective: syn gut was a revelation during Mac's time. But again, Mac said nothing wrong.

    As to what Cahill/Fowler said, yeah, afterward I was scratching my head and thinking 'WTF?' Those two need to take a trip or two down to the locker room and practice courts before they start spouting off info like that. Fed has not used a PS in what. . .5 years? And he's always played with a 90. And Cahill saying that Rafa plays with a 90? Ummm. . .WTF? Rafa has always played with a 100, as far as I know. And as to Fowler talking about racquet weight, I kind of understand what he was saying. I think he was saying that for most guys, Rafa's racquet would be too light, as for all intents and purposes it is a junior or women's racquet as to its low weight. I tried playing with Rafa's racquet, but it was just too light for me. Compared to most other tour racquets, Rafa's racquet is really light.
     
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  28. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    Yeah, I noticed that one, too. It's especially funny since the string Rafa uses (and has used for ages) is a poly, much more closely related to "the Luxilons" (sic) than it is to any synthetic gut.

    Overall, the takeaway is that either willfully or due to ignorance, pretty much all the racquet commentary during pro matches is either useless or riddled with inaccuracies. In some cases, they avoid "outing" any of the racquet companies, since they are major sponsors and advertisers...in other cases, they simply don't have good info.
     
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  29. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    That could be true. I've definitely heard him refer to synthetic gut before when he really just means any synthetic (meaning non-natural, i.e. non-gut) string. We use a pretty narrow definition of synthetic gut here on the boards, but technically all non-gut strings are "synthetics".
     
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  30. CAM178

    CAM178 Hall of Fame

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    Y'all are way too critical of Mac. He isn't stupid or 'not in the know'. Rather, he and the other pros talk in their own lingo, guys. If you were to sit around with several of these guys, I bet they would say a lot of things that you wouldn't understand. Do you think they would be critical of you for not knowing? No. They would explain what they're saying.

    The game hasn't passed Mac by. Far from it. At almost 50 years of age, he is who Rafa chose to hit with before his semis at Wimby this year. That says enough about not only his credentials, but what the top guys think of him.

    I'm a bit older player, too, and I think of Lux as a different type of string, too. Mostly because it is. It revolutionized strings, IMO. The first time I hit with it, I knew that I had just found the missing piece of the puzzle.

    Y'all need to realize that anybody who has won a Grand Slam, or anybody who has played at that level, absolutely has a right to be in the commentary booth. There is a reason that Mac has been commentating for as long as he has. Do I think Mac is the best? Pfffft. Pretty freaking far from it. But he has been there. He has the miles and the insight, so he automatically gets my respect. Plus, I was around to watch him in '84, and that alone should get anybody's respect.

    I'm not poo-pooing anybody for their opinion. Rather, I just want you guys to think about what you're saying sometimes. Just show these players the respect they deserve, when they deserve it.
     
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  31. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    I agree that Mac does have incredible insight into tennis in general, as well as strategy, psychology and many other specific aspects of the game. However, the defense of his statements about Rafa's string simply isn't correct. Rafa's string is a type of poly monofilament, and in every sense of the word (playing performance, chemical structure, lab testing, etc.) is MUCH MUCH closer to Luxilon than it is to anything that would be called synthetic gut, since the term synthetic gut specifies a structure (multifilament wraps around a center core) and material (nylon) that Rafa's string simply doesn't have. That's what's wrong with what he said. It's factually dead wrong as well as misleading and inaccurate.

    He didn't do it on purpose, but he made a complete error. Rafa's string would be much better described as "a string quite similar to (or having many of the properties of) Luxilon, but made by another brand" than it would by differentiating it from the thing it's most similar to. He was trying erroneously to make it seem more like a string that it's unrelated to.
     
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  32. jmsx521

    jmsx521 Hall of Fame

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    It sounds a lot, but it's not that bad really considering his size and strength, and the style he uses to swing at the ball -- which is to whip the ball, rather than hitting straight forward (the classic way). My racket is an ounce heavier than his, plus 16 of the 1" lead-tape strips at 12 o'clock and I am only half the size of Nadal... and it's not that tiring as long as you try to use the technique he uses.

    I've watched Nadal practicing live on the side of the court... and I thought, there's no way he could do what he was doing with anything near a stock AeroPro Drive. So, it's quite possible it's really that heavy at the 12 o'clock. It was discussed in the Nadal's racket thread a while ago.... Unless I misunderstood the comments that were made.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
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  33. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    To be fair, I totally agree with you on ALL of the above accounts. He's a pretty darn good commentator, very entertaining at times, and still plays VERY well. He just made an error about the string.
     
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  34. CAM178

    CAM178 Hall of Fame

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    Okay. But first off, take it easy. The all caps, and the rest of your explanation are exactly why Mac said what he said: you get way too technical for the average tennis viewer, or the average club player. If you said what you said to a club hacker, you would immediately get the deer-in-headlights look.

    Also, I didn't think that Rafa's string was like Lux at all. I thought it was more like a syn gut, so if what you say is true, then excuse both Mac and me. I've played with Rafa's string, and to me it didn't play like Lux. At least not like any of the Lux I've played with.

    Just remember that Mac is trying to speak to an uninformed (the majority) audience. I know what you mean, but try explaining that to someone who doesn't know tennis. A lot of people tune in to watch Fed and Rafa because they are such major sports stars, but they just don't understand the intricacies of the game.

    That's all I'm trying to convey.
     
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  35. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    McEnroe labels and calls ALL strings that are NOT natural gut as "synthetic gut". It doesn't matter if it's a poly, co-poly, nylon, kevlar, aramid, etc. If it's not natural gut, then to him it's "synthetic gut". He's been using that term on TV for many years in reference to Luxilon. This is probably because when he was playing, almost all the pros used natural gut. So if you're not using natural gut then the only other option is "synthetic gut".

    In fact, he's said many times on TV sentences like - "He uses this Luxilon string, which is a synthetic gut......"
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
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  36. nalk7

    nalk7 Rookie

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    According yo Greg this is the truth concerning Rafa's lead tape: There is no way to take a racquet with the specs given by USRSA and make it into a "Nadal" racquet. However, if one had a racquet with Tennis Warehouse's measurements, one could add roughly 9.5 grams under the bumperguard near the tip, and about 2.5 grams one inch up from the end of the butt cap to get a racquet with measurements very similar to those of Nadal's racquet.

    heres the link: http://www.hdtennis.com/grs/pro_racquet_specs.html
     
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  37. counter_puncher

    counter_puncher Banned

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    Any American commentator = guy trying too hard to make himself look smart when he knows he isnt.
     
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  38. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

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    hey man, Chris fowler may not know a single thing about racquets, but Cahill and Mcenroe have substance to what they say. Cahill coached Andre and LLeyton, and played in the tour for a bit right? Mcenroe, eh, well. nevermind about Mcenroe. :)
     
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  39. Josherer

    Josherer Professional

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    Moral of the story. some commentators (such as John Necombe the one us Australians have to listen to) are absolutley rubbish!
     
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  40. drake

    drake Semi-Pro

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    hmmm. Lets see do I believe Cahill and McEnroe or some 14 year olds on a Racquet Forum? I think I'll lean toward the Slam champion and Cahill!
     
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  41. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    Didn't mean to come on so strong (that's a limitation of communicating via keyboard instead of voice), however the point is that McEnroe was trying to differentiate Rafa's strings from the "Luxilons" that everyone else uses. And by any objective measure, Rafa's string is one of the "Luxilon types". It's a monofilament poly-based string, which is exactly what Luxilon is in general type. (Luxilon is a co-poly technically, but this is basically what Duralast is, and isn't what synthetic gut is.)

    Breakpoint is totally right that Mac often uses the term "synthetic gut" to refer to any synthetic (read: non-gut) string, but in this case he was actively differentiating between Luxilon-types (i.e. poly) and synthetic guts, and made an (unforced) error no matter how it's sliced. So even for the uninformed, he was trying to make a point about a difference that didn't exist. In fact, the opposite is true...Rafa essentially uses a Luxilon-like string.

    You're definitely right that Duralast plays differently than Lux, just as various brands of multi play differently from each other, but it's still in the same family, and much closer than anything called synthetic gut would be.

    All that said, I'd much rather have Mac commentating on a match than almost any of the other available options, since he is more fun and insightful than any of the other commentators, none of whom are particularly well informed on the details of pro gear.
     
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  42. Vermillion

    Vermillion Banned

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    when did ps85 come out?
     
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  43. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    1985 i think
     
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  44. CAM178

    CAM178 Hall of Fame

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    No worries, man. I'm pretty easygoing, and I wasn't upset. Of note, though: Rafa uses Duralast? I thought he used Pro Hurricane? I hit with Pro Hurricane, and didn't like it. Didn't play at all like Lux.

    The tough thing about former tour players is that they talk in a different language than do we. They have a different language on tour. But mainly, he is from a different generation. I mean, look no further than that archaic racquet he wields. Crazy that he still plays with that dinosaur. But hey, if he can play like he does with that, and based on his results, he's the man in my book. It's like the old saying: 'Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes. . .'

    To be honest, the whole string thing confuses the hell out of me. There are just too many choices. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing. But when you're making a string change and don't have access to someone in the know (pro stringers, pro players, etc.), it is just too much to research. Like Mac, I remember the days in the juniors when it was pretty much PSG, just tell the stringer what tension you want. Sadly, PSG Original still makes up half of my current hybrid. Wish I knew of something else to go to. . .

    But I'm getting off topic. Guys, enjoying the discussion. To right this train, I agree with the OP that I had no idea where Cahill & Fowler got their info. It shocked me, as Cahill is one of the guys I look to as really being up on things. I'm thinking that he meant that unlike some of the other tour guys, Rog is sticking with what is essentially (and Cahill is right on this) a 25 year old racquet line, which the PS line is. It's old as dirt, and Rog hasn't strayed away from the racquet line during his pro career, unlike many pros who change a lot. Safin is another old school guy. To be honest, it still amazes me how a guy who is 6'5" & 200 and so lanky can wield such a tiny frame.
     
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  45. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Actually, it came out in 1983.
     
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  46. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    Well it's true, he does not use a K90. Karophite is new technology, i don't believe he has been using karophite all these years.
     
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  47. Josherer

    Josherer Professional

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    hmmm... Lets see....... Do you believe that Nadal uses a racquet far to light for a recreational player... hmmmm... lets think about that.
     
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  48. albino smurf

    albino smurf Professional

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    When they were talking about head sizes I think they mis-spoke and said Rafa instead of Roger.
     
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  49. mdjenders

    mdjenders Professional

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    I also like how mcenroe always says that everything that is not "Luxilon" is synthetic gut, as in "rafa uses all synthetic gut. he has not tried the luxilon."
     
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  50. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Even Darren Cahill, who used to use the PS 6.0 85, knows that Karophite is just graphite.

    The only "new technology" that's in the K90 is the lack of it. :shock:
     
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