Federer wants faster surfaces

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Steve0904, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Rather interesting, when all 7 of Agassi's titles in 1995 were on hardcourts, while Muster had won a masters title on indoor carpet in 1995, including a win over Sampras in the semi finals. As Muster said "I didn't win my ranking points in a supermarket. What do they want me to do, write the computer a letter of apology?"

    I think it happened on a much smaller scale in 2011. Nadal's form in 2011 was much better in Indian Wells, Miami, Wimbledon and the US Open than it was in any clay-court tournament that year, apart from the last few matches of the French Open. In 2012, however, Nadal was back to dominating on clay, whereas Muster in 1998 only managed a slight improvement on clay, and still didn't win a tournament, which was obviously nowhere near his dominance of 1995 and 1996, years where Muster won a combined 18 titles on clay.

    The initial injury was on hardcourts, as I've mentioned. It was at the US Open in 2001. That came after a summer of success on hardcourts for Guga as well. His 2001 Cincinnati draw was brutal, beating Roddick, Haas, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov, Henman and Rafter in consecutive matches. He then reached the final of Indianapolis, beating Henman and Ivanisevic again, but retired against Rafter in the final.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  2. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    I love posters, who quote a ton of useless stats, instead of giving answers, that actually have something in commmon with the discussion.

    :roll:

    How exactly happens the hard work, without putting stress on the joints?

    I am eagerly awaiting a scientific explanation " a la Nadal_Freak"
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  3. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm speaking relatively.
     
  4. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

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    One of the comments, "It sounda like sour grapes to me about Federer about the courts, he just can,t take a loss, he has to suggest courts should be changed to suit him and his way of playing. too bad. poor sport."

    I wonder if the commenter said the same thing when Nadal whines about everything being too fast?
     
  5. Ms Nadal

    Ms Nadal Semi-Pro

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    This is the double standards I don't like. When Rafa moans about something everyone blows it up. But when Roger moans it hardly gets headlines. If Roger won, he would not have made these comments. Why say it after a loss? Making excuses!
     
  6. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Relatively?

    Care to elaborate?
     
  7. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

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    I'm not making a big deal about Fed saying it or not, nor do I care what Nadal says about the surfaces. Every player will find something to complain about after a tough loss.

    I do agree that surfaces need to speed up a bit. It's almost boring to watch now.
     
  8. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relatively: Talking about physicality on clay in comparison with hardcourts, or vice versa
    Absolutely: Talking about physicality in absolute terms
     
  9. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    LOL.

    Dont blame the surface.

    Blame your own playing style.

    That's the whole point. You have to adapt to the surface...

    Nadal wants to grind on all courts like he does on clay - obviously he is going to get injured or just wear and tear...

    its not because of the surface but his inability to sufficiently alter his playing style to remain durable.



    Clay court playing style is absolutely punishing on the body and thus isnt rewarded on surfaces that are stiffer. This stiffness gives the surface a certain quality and unique playing condition that is different to say a faster clay court, or a fast grass court.
     
  10. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    THe difference is when Roger request for something it makes sense for the tour but Rafa's request for changes are silly. Roger is asking for some fast courts so there's more variety is good for tennis. OTOH, Rafa ask for 2 years ranking system, reduce schedule or cut down hardcourt events are making it worse for tennis.
     
  11. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Exactly!

    You said, that clay court tennis requires harder work! That is relative to hardcourt tennis I presume.

    So, what I asked is, how exactly happens this harder work without added stress on the joints?
     
  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal is in no position to whine because the slow courts suit his game perfectly. And that's including grass.
     
  13. Ms Nadal

    Ms Nadal Semi-Pro

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    I like Rafa but he moans too much. The ATP men must be glad Rafa isn't around.
     
  14. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    First notice the leading question.

    Q. When you were winning your original Masters Cups and these kinds of titles, we were talking about being attacking tennis being to the fore. Now we’re talking about defensive tennis as the norm. Would you like to see or could you see a day when we talk more about attacking tennis than defensive tennis?
    ROGER FEDERER: Yeah, I mean, it’s easy fix. Just make quicker courts, then it’s hard to defend. Attacking style is more important. It’s only on this type of slow courts that you can defend the way we are all doing right now.
    I think it’s exciting, but no doubt about it, it’s tough. What you don’t want is that you hit 15 great shots and at the end, it ends up in an error.
    So I think sometimes quicker courts do help the cause. I think it would help from time to time to move to something a bit faster. That would help to learn, as well, for many different players, different playing styles, to realize that coming to the net is a good thing, it’s not a bad thing.
    Then again, the tour has to decide, the tournament directors have a big say in it.
    I’m happy with this court. It’s faster. It’s fine, too. I’ve played on all different speeds. But I think some variety would be nice, some really slow stuff and then some really fast stuff, instead of trying to make everything sort of the same. You sort of protect the top guys really by doing that because you have the best possible chance to have them in the semis at this point, I think.
    But should that be the goal? I’m not sure.

    http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2012-11-13/11008.php
     
  15. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Nadal is an all-court all-surface player who is about to enter his prime.

    No, I have not had a chance to pile up a bunch of cheap slams in a weak era, evade taxes, and stash all the loot in criminal tax havens in Geneva and Dubai, if that's what you're asking.
     
  16. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Waw waw poor fed the crybaby poor loser, he chokes the lead away to joker and now the courts are to slow.
     
  17. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    The 5.0's are getting tired of beating up on Johnny Mac and are looking forward to the challenge.

    Your time will come.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  18. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    With faster courts; it's advantage Federer once again. Federer at #1 while being age 35.
     
  19. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    As opposed to

    As opposed to the current situation where he is massively disadvantaged - the courts being so slow. Basically the first half of the year is slow court tennis and the second half of the year is medium paced tennis. Fast court tennis doesn't exist anymore. All Federer is asking for is so balance to the season, rather than the huge weighting towards slow court tennis that exists at the moment.
     
  20. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Fans don't want to watch serve-bot tennis. I know Fed would prefer that and maybe a few baseline points just to relieve the boredom but that's not going to fly anymore.
     
  21. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    you mean Head Radicals and Prestiges ? Wilson Pro staffs? Firts generation Babolats? the real racquets under the paintjobs in most modern players????

    you know. for someone so knowledgeable, you sure make some flawed points!!!!
     
  22. bbfl

    bbfl New User

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    Yeah poor Fed has won only 17 GS. Djokovich is too defensive who is relying on opponents errors, did you see the winners on the final? Roger made 10-15 more winners than Djoko. That's why Murray's and Djoko's style is too boring to watch. Tennis only will lose if they keep playing like this.
     
  23. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

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    Nice post nikdom. Thanks a lot for posting it. It's the question that led to that answer from Roger Federer. Many posting in this thread would either ignore it or don't have the brains to get it
     
  24. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

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    Roger Federer may be around for two or three years but the issue is beyond that.

    No one is asking to make all the courts faster. But how could youaccept slowing down of almost all surfaces? Except for Cincinnati all the surfaces are slow.

    Let it be this way

    Australian Open - medium slow hard court, Rebound ace
    RG - the 90s slow clay
    Wimbledon - the 90s ultra fast grass, come on it's such an insult to see baseline Tennis on the hallowed surface of Wimbledon. Even if it's Karlovic v/s Isner final, I don't care but bring back old green grass.

    US Open - fast hard courts like 90s

    That way we have variety
     
  25. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    Not gonna happen, tournament directors simply don't care until the top players moan like Novak and rafa did at this year Blue clay madrid. They are not gonna change it only for the convenience of the players like fed. Blue clay is again going back to red as the surface was hyped to produce injuries or it is too slippery to play.
     
  26. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

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    I didn't mean to change it for the convenience of Roger who is gonna be around for only two or threee years. But to keep variety in Tennis.
     
  27. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Pigs would fly before that would happen, heck pigs would fly before they would both reach a 4th round in those conditions.
     
  28. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

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    It was just a hyperbole Zagor. I really didn't literally mean it
     
  29. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    He uses his "knowledge" to be a massive Nusstard.

    The sad reality.
     
  30. VPhuc tennis fan

    VPhuc tennis fan Professional

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    Wow, wow, wow! Did u drink whiskey getting out of bed this morning? The few posts I've seen from you suggests not only "morning" but all day long, sunrise to sunset (leather,wash, rinse, repeat to infinity).
    Nadal...about to enter his primer?!!! WTF (nothing to do with the tournament that just ended)! Good to sleep through half of the year dreaming about your Rafa, huh?
    "cheap slams, evade taxes, criminal tax havens, ..." What are u now? Accountant, IRS auditor? Lots of CHEAP accusations. Evidence (please no Bleacher Report, or National Inquirer, or Stars if you know what I mean).
    Envy is one of the 7 deadliest sin, you know it right? Brad Pitt's early movie w/ Morgan Freeman. Watch it if you want to know what I mean. Good drinking now.
     
  31. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    And you can stop right here because this sentence is not only self-serving but every kind of wrong as well. Amazing defense is amazing to watch. Redirecting and turning defense into offense are some of the most spectacular skills in tennis. Long rallies that play the lines fast like ping-pong and use angles are suspenseful and exciting. Lobs and drop shots break the rhythm and are tons of fun. One-sided tennis where one player can attack and the opponent cannot defend is drab, dramaless and tedious. It is the balance between offense and defense that makes tennis an entertaining sport. Let's not take entertainment out of tennis please. It's a great show when all styles can express themselves.

    Anyway, enjoy pseudofed on the matter: (From pseudofedblog.com)




    « My open letter to Mr. London and story of recent gift




    Why I don’t want faster courts

    November 13, 2012 by pseudofedblog


    Hello,

    I hope you all enjoyed the End of the World Tour Finals in London which ended Sunday evening.

    This is a welcome time of year where I can have a little time off and look forward to some relaxings. I am playing an exhibition soon. When a staff member told me it was in Rio de Janeiro I advised that I can’t play that month as that is when the Australian Open is. Anyway, they rescheduled and I am very excited to travel to Rio so am busy doing the brush ups on My Italian.

    I recently announced that I would like the courts (tennis) to be faster. There is a very viscus rumour doing the travellings that I am saying this for personal gain. A small bird told Me that some people think that Paul Anaconda is doing the same with Me as he did with Pistol Peter, that is, maximise My career by shortening the points as I cannot run the way I used to. This is a lie and also it is not true. Allow Me to set the record straight.

    I would like to say that as well as playing tennis I am also a tennis fan. I have lots of DVDs of Myself and watch them regularly. So we can say I am a fan, just like you. Well, not quite like you, but you know what I mean. So I know what fans want. There is nothing that brings them to the edge of their seats more than watching Ace after Ace. Or, when I am receiving, 2 shot games. This makes the crescendo with the tension and builds the excitement leading to a release of rapture. Who wants to see a 20 shot rally when the last shot is a shankings? That is just hitting the ball backwards and forwards and it means I have to do a lot of the runnings. Inappropriate. And anyway, I have a very busy life now with things to do. I can’t spend 5 hours on a court any more. I am able to, I just don’t want to, and you can’t make Me.

    Please do try and enjoy yourselves in the next few weeks. If you can, come see Me in Brasil for the exhibition matches. If not, I am excited about going to see My great friends in the Down Under in January. Good Day My mates!

    PF xxx
     
  32. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    The speed only becomes an issue when Fed loses, which I find pretty amusing. In Madrid, Fed thought one should be able to handle any speed. What has changed?
     
  33. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    So are you telling to Federer to handle one speed(Slow)? There is no adaption to that. Madrid....it was fast....Nadal and Djokovic whined about it. Federer did not.

    Federer would be whining if he cried about slow courts when there was a balance of Slow and Fast courts. Unfortunate that there is not many fast courts.

    Federer did not say that the speed of the courts it why he lost to Novak. That tounament was still fast enough for his to play aggresively.

    I don't see anything wrong with Federer statements.....it just you who trying to find something stupid to hurt Federer with. Just like Nadhaters who find something stupid to talk about in Nadal facebook comments.


    What would you prefer 2012 Australian open or 2009 Australian Open?

    2012 was super slow, did not pick up the slice well. It actually hurt Nadal more than in helped.

    2009 was evenly balanced, picked up the slice well, helped attackers and defending styles equally.

    2009 had way better quality matches from day 1-14. It there were no fast courts but a medium blend which both styles can use....than yeah it is okay. The problem is these stupid organizers are slowing down further year after year. There point where defensive tennis will be pointless......it would just be about who makes the UE, than defending till you get a short ball to go back to neutral or aggresion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  34. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    Well said! Roger clearly stated that the courts in London were some of the faster courts they play on.
     
  35. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    And yet everyone here is commenting on how SLOW wtf courts are and how unworthy of traditional indoor. So who's right?



    I don't see any major difference between AO 2009's speed and AO 2012's speed. I'm starting to surmise that evaluation of court speed is highly subjective since even top players come up with conflicting statements when asked the question. As I said, on this particular board though it mainly comes up when Fed loses.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  36. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    The evaluation doesn't have to be highly subjective and in fact can be scientific. These types of things can be measured. I have seen comparisons of ball speed/bounce height through the use of the hawkeye cameras during some tournaments. Data should be kept on the subject and it should be released to the public.

    I'm about ready to take some trips to the slam venues and measure these things for myself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  37. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Assuming somebody would care enough to invest the time and money in those scrupulous investigations. And one would have to take into account racquet evolution and different ways of hitting the ball affecting the bounce, speed, etc good luck with that. Sorry but not worth it for me and I don't think the general public would care either.
     
  38. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    A colleague of mine has also expressed a bit of interest in this project. I think we would do a fair job in taking into account all the variables. ;)

    The TT boards will care, and that is all that matters. :lol:
     
  39. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Well, go for it then! Maybe the ATP will agree to publish your findings. Good luck!
     
  40. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    We'll see. I don't really have that much time, but you never know. I'm fine with people understanding that the court speed and bounce height are measurable in principle, and there is no need to act like it is all nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  41. Warmaster

    Warmaster Hall of Fame

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    Agreed.

    Now we just need to speed up the courts so we can have our precious balance!
     
  42. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

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    Baseline grinders are ruining tennis, out of the top 5- 4 of them are grinders- ridiculous!!

    For the sake of the sport we need to have more variety and similar surfaces to that slippery blue clay- favoring attack tennis.

    It can't be one way only, that would also help the grinders learn to be aggressive and finish points early, instead of just keeping the ball until the aggressive guys make a mistake.
     
  43. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

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    Speed up the court and that goes away. If the court speeds up, then the retrievers no longer have time to run down the shots, and might actually have to hit a winner to win a point instead of waiting for an unforced error. Wimbledon, for example, should never be able to be won without playing nothing but serve and volley tennis. RG should never be won by anyone that hits big. USO and AO somewhere in between, but faster. I would love to see all the Slams go back to their original surfaces, fast, bumpy grass where you have no choice but to play serve and volley because you don't dare let the ball hit the ground, and slow as molasses clay.
     
  44. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Speeding up the courts will destroy the balance. The server plays, the returner watches. Occasionally he attempts an "all or nothing" return . Either in or out. Over. BORING!!

    Coloskier: you DON'T want returners to not have time to run for the balls. It's fun to watch. Once again, there is no advantage to destroy the fun in tennis other than empty the stadiums and doom the sport to a confidential posterity (for the select few who don't enjoy rallies).
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  45. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Yeah let's maximize the slippery factor, so that players who try to move break their leg. They should play on ice. Without skates. The new rule is: if you move, you lose. It wouldn't be tennis anymore but I'm sure somebody could find a new name. (ETA: they could also play on water, that way the ball won't bounce and no one will have to worry about returns. Attackers for the win every time).
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  46. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Federer handles any speed.

    Contrary to your expert :roll: opinion, he is doing very well on slow courts.

    Also, a difference should be made, between being for the right balance of conditions, which is lacking with the current surfaces, and self-serving propositions and boycotts, after FAILING to cope with the conditions (a la Nadal and Djokovic).

    What is the most hilarious thing - a lot of *******s like yourself, do not realize, that ultrafast surfaces will not benefit Federer, who has already lost a step or two. It favours the younger players.

    The only other reason, why *******s wouldn't like diversity of the surfaces, is that, if fast surfaces happen during the prime years of a certain player, it may expose his weaknesses. It is a hilarious thought, frankly, since we already know from his WTF and the blue clay fiasko preformances, that he has limited game on such surfaces.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  47. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    How does this stop players hitting balls with the authority, depth and spin that we see in the modern game? No hardcourts have been THAT fast, ever. Nobody in the 1990s could hit with the authority, depth and spin of today's players, and even in the 1990s, players like Sampras and Becker stayed back and rallied on hardcourts for the most part. Let's remember that hardcourts now take up all but 3 months of the tour.

    The best chance of a return to 1990s conditions is to ban poly strings altogether and have the strings that were being used 20 years ago. Those strings made a different sound altogether when they made contact with the ball. But then, like I said before, in the 1990s, people whinged about "power taking precedence over talent". All this whinging today is a fear of change and evolution, or just anti-Nadal whinging.

    In the 1960s, even on clay, serve and volley was seen a lot. Why? Because of the racquet and string technology of the time. Because it was so hard to hit balls with depth and spin (relative to more modern eras), players felt compelled to go towards the net and play in the forecourt. This was true even on slow surfaces. Borg and Vilas engaging in baseline wars of attrition in the 1970s, some found it enthralling while others found it boring, was new for the era.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  48. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    So, there is not a problem with bringing back faster surfaces?

    What have Sampras and Becker to do with this discussion?

    And, Sampras and Becker were having 20-25 shot rallies on HC/carpet/grass on a regular basis? Really?

    Also, we are not talking about HC only. We are talking about grass as well. We are talking about carpet as well.

    Yet, in the 90ies there were a lot more surface specialists. Now everybody is a specialist, because the differences between the surfaces in terms of speed, have greatly diminished.

    Really? The best chance? Didn't see that on the faster surfaces that are still presented on Tour.

    So, when exactly was known, that the new strings are a problem for the fast surfaces?

    You talk about fear of change, but what you are demonstrating is exactly that - fear of change, isn't it? :roll:
     
  49. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Very interesting (and knowledgeable) post as usual.
     
  50. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    Completely agree with OP. It's a legit argument, one that many TWers have made. I don't know about uniformly faster surfaces, but at least at a percentage of tournaments throughout the year. I don't think Fed expects every tournament to slow down, but it would be nice to see a "fast" section(s) of the calendar to reward aggressive players.

    That said, it would have been genius for him to say this after he WON Wimbledon, not after the LOST the YEC. As OP said, it would look a lot better, not that I think it looks awful. It's not like he got swept in round robin and was out of the tournament. He almost won, and his loss probably had little to do with the surface.

    It would also be ideal if some younger players, in addition to Fed, said this. Fed obviously wants faster surfaces because they suit his game. But, part of it is also probably that he is a bit older and can't play the defense he used to. I know he's in great shape, and still incredible, but he does sometimes lose a half-step. Go back and look at peak 2004-2007 Fed - he was overall faster and a better defender, yet still aggressive. All that means is that he didn't always feel the need to pull the trigger so quick, so didn't have so many of his crazy "Federrors." Speeding up surfaces allows him to be more aggressive, AND allows him not to have to play as much defense, or even if he's in a dominant court position, allows him not to have to hit so many great shots before the point is over.
     

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